Rune Lore

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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Rune Lore

Post by REHowardfanatic »

I have always liked rune magic and I'm curious about Rune Lore. However, the reviews of it on Amazon are rather scathing. The most troubling complaint is that it is a setting book with very little in the way of rules for the runes and their use. In fact, one reviewer claims that the runes detailed in the book are very few and that the book cannot be used as published due to a level of incompleteness.


So, does anyone have the book? Can you give a detailed accounting of it? A solid review?
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

Uh, that reviewer is full of crap.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

This reviewer may be full of crap too. But I will toss my hat in the ring as a consumer.

The actual character class takes up a few pages in the front of the book and the runes themselves, take as much as spells would. The rune spells and affects are detailed, but saves, duration and that sort of thing is sketchy or non-existent in many of the spells. Deflect is one that is a bit of a game breaker if you do not fill in the blanks. Once it is cast, there seems to be no duration so the area it is cast upon cannot be hit by arrows as long as the rune is in effect. It is like a cloak of arrows never hit me.

The class description lists several schools of runes but only two are covered. Where the others can be found, is not stated.

The first level the HD is d8 and the rest of the progression is d6. That is an error. No one has clarified if it is d6 or d8 officially. No, you cannot tell me that it was intentional either.

So if you do not mind placing siege checks to overcome or durations of your own, then it works really well. The relic thing is confusing and just seems like a lot of trouble to me.

The rest of the book contains population data on cities and towns in Aihrde as well as a whole bunch of nifty adventures set in the world. As a campaign supplement, it is B+ as a new class, I give it a C.

That said, if you add in saves and durations and whatever you feel is needed, and it does not take a lot of effort, the class is very, very utilitarian. I have had two players run them, one was kind or lack-luster, but the other guy ran this Rune Mark and was un-stop-able.

The review you saw came from someone who did not see the need for "house-ruling" the thing to make it work, as an added feature. If I were new to the C&C my review would be harsh too.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

Saves equal the level of the Rune maker, as for which attribute it is against, the PHB gives us those guidelines, which is what I often do anyways, since they didn't, and don't, follow their own guidelines with a number of the spells in the PHB itself. As for duration, I'll have to read again, since I haven't looked at it since getting it, but I do believe there was one general rule in a paragraph in the beginning of the Runes chapter. Something like 1 round per level, that, or I just made a very conscious, and therefore memorable, decision to do that as my own house rule.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by REHowardfanatic »

Thanks for the responses. I am curious, as well about whether or not the Codex Nordica will overlap with rune magic with this book.
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by moriarty777 »

REHowardfanatic wrote:Thanks for the responses. I am curious, as well about whether or not the Codex Nordica will overlap with rune magic with this book.
There is no reason why you couldn't overlap the two but you don't need Rune Lore to enjoy Codex Nordica which is quite self-sufficient.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Warunsun »

moriarty777 wrote:There is no reason why you couldn't overlap the two but you don't need Rune Lore to enjoy Codex Nordica which is quite self-sufficient.
I am looking forward to digging through these books. My Nordica order included a copy of Rune Lore and Codex Celtarum. I have tons of reading to do! :)
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Litzen Tallister »

Codex Nordica does have some additional runes, with Futhark versions of runes that would be easily used by the Rune Mark class in Rune Lore. It seems as if the Norse Runes are more traditionally spell-like than the ones provided by Rune Lore, with more concrete details than the loose building blocks by Rune Lore.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by TheMetal1 »

So with issues that Rune Lore has, it seems a simple PDF Errata could be made available to provide clarifications. What would be the hold up for this?

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

TheMetal1 wrote:So with issues that Rune Lore has, it seems a simple PDF Errata could be made available to provide clarifications. What would be the hold up for this?
Trolls. Trolls are always the "hold up" for everything.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by REHowardfanatic »

And they eat goats, too.
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

OK, I have reread the Rune section, and spot read a handful of the Runes, at it appears that the Runes that don't specify a duration have it basically spelled out in the description. So if it doesn't say the duration is immediate or last 1 round per level, etc... You can use the spell description to figure out what it is. For example:

"Redirect forces a moving item or person in a different direction.
Redirect can affect items that weigh 50 pounds per level of the
user. Anything encountering the rune or the item upon which it
is inscribed is affected.
The target cannot be made to turn back 180 degrees, but is
rather deflected off its current path. The rune can move things
left, right, up, down, etc., up to five feet off target. When used
against human or monster targets, the rune forces any charging
opponent to veer in the desired direction. Arrows, spears, and
the like also move in the desired direction. The rune requires
the use of a piece of flint to cast."
-Page 23 of Runelore

It does not specify a duration, but going by the description it is clearly an "immediate" effect, and is done.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

But since I have not read every single Rune spell, there may be descriptions that do not clearly indicate durations, this is written by a Troll after all, so I am sure there are such spells, so please share which they are.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

Treebore wrote:OK, I have reread the Rune section, and spot read a handful of the Runes, at it appears that the Runes that don't specify a duration have it basically spelled out in the description. So if it doesn't say the duration is immediate or last 1 round per level, etc... You can use the spell description to figure out what it is. For example:

"Redirect forces a moving item or person in a different direction.
Redirect can affect items that weigh 50 pounds per level of the
user. Anything encountering the rune or the item upon which it
is inscribed is affected.
The target cannot be made to turn back 180 degrees, but is
rather deflected off its current path. The rune can move things
left, right, up, down, etc., up to five feet off target. When used
against human or monster targets, the rune forces any charging
opponent to veer in the desired direction. Arrows, spears, and
the like also move in the desired direction. The rune requires
the use of a piece of flint to cast."
-Page 23 of Runelore

It does not specify a duration, but going by the description it is clearly an "immediate" effect, and is done.
This is the spell I mentioned above. I called it "deflect". The way the thing is worded, it is easy to believe that anything directed at the target would be deflected for a period of time or duration. You read it as though it is a one-time, one specific item/charge/missile per spell. That makes more sense given the 50 lb. ability. The time to cast and then a round to take effect, is crazy for a single affect spell. The book states that all spells take affect the following round. Confusing.

Troll wording and editing and a long history of it, ends this way with misinterpretation and then scathing reviews. I went and read the reviews and looking from the outside-in, it is a fair review.

I am a fan so I overlook that stuff. But the missing schools of runes (6 listed but 3 there) is disappointing. It should have been advertised as a campaign setting book, not a class book. I use 24 of the pages, with lots of house ruling.

I am not as impressed with this book as I was with Codex Celtarum or Codex Nordica.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by tylermo »

I was impressed with pg. 51 (?). My 2nd edition D&D halfling character, Anderson Bartlesby (a.k.a. Anderson, Rooftop Dancer) is officially a part of Aihrde. Truthfully, I haven't had a chance to explore the class. One of my con helpers ran a couple of the adventures for prospective players.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by DMSamuel »

They have such a bad reputation for poor editing, I wonder why they don't get a good editor, or heck, just a nice proofer would be valuable. I would do for very cheap (or free for editor credit and a copy of the book) - do they just not have any idea that they need more editing?
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

tylermo wrote:I was impressed with pg. 51 (?). My 2nd edition D&D halfling character, Anderson Bartlesby (a.k.a. Anderson, Rooftop Dancer) is officially a part of Aihrde. Truthfully, I haven't had a chance to explore the class. One of my con helpers ran a couple of the adventures for prospective players.
Oh, if my character's name is in there, that makes all the difference! :lol:

I still like the class and the concept, just have not reconciled the execution yet.

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Re: Rune Lore

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DMSamuel wrote:They have such a bad reputation for poor editing, I wonder why they don't get a good editor, or heck, just a nice proofer would be valuable. I would do for very cheap (or free for editor credit and a copy of the book) - do they just not have any idea that they need more editing?

As a riter for Toll Llord Gimes, I vehemently disagre with this statement. We here at Trokk Kord Gamer are highly profesionel people and talentted artests and wee dont knead anyone coming in behin dus checking our werk.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by DMSamuel »

AGNKim wrote:
DMSamuel wrote:They have such a bad reputation for poor editing, I wonder why they don't get a good editor, or heck, just a nice proofer would be valuable. I would do for very cheap (or free for editor credit and a copy of the book) - do they just not have any idea that they need more editing?

As a riter for Toll Llord Gimes, I vehemently disagre with this statement. We here at Trokk Kord Gamer are highly profesionel people and talentted artests and wee dont knead anyone coming in behin dus checking our werk.

LOL - well, of course I meant no offense :oops:

Before I ever read anything from the trolls I played in a C&C game and the CK complained about their editing but told me to look past it and I would find a diamond and I did. However, their editing/proofing hasn't improved in the intervening years.
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

Ah humor. It is good to laugh.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Arduin »

DMSamuel wrote: However, their editing/proofing hasn't improved in the intervening years.
Really? The PHB 6th Printing is MUCH improved. Did you buy it?
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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

I like how people complain about the Trolls editing, I buy LOTS of RPG's, and editing is an issue for everyone. WOTC, with all their money, etc... had over 100 pages of errata on 4E within the first year. Paizo has missed entire chapters, as has Mongoose, in their books. So over all the Trolls are actually better than other publishers.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by serleran »

I am reminded of the time I posted my runecasting method and the same complaints, save the editing (for the most part.. I do make mistakes), arose. Plus more, really, as some viewed the basement as being too underground with the "real world" applicators involved and all. Alas, perchance to recall.

As to the book itself... there are things "missing" as the Castle Keeper is early on told that. It is purposeful. For example, runic combinations... it must surely be possible yet there is hardly a mention, if any, of such use. It is to be contrived that, as with all things Aihridian, the details are followed across the works. A rune here, another there -- hence why I would like to see The Rings of Brass as a product released, not only for more runes but, well, history of the awesome dwarfs.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

Steve is also supposed to publish more Runes in PDF, and eventually in print, but as is usual for Steve, he hasn't had the time to do it with everything else he handles.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Omote »

Perhaps Rune Lore is designed to be a book of ideas, where the CK fits them into his game as needed. I'm not sure as I have hardly seen that book. My question to those who have read it, are the ideas in the class and runes only slightly definable, while the rest of the sections are clear and concise? My thought would be that if the Rune Caster class appears open-ended, while the rest of the adventures, settings, NPCs etc. are clear cut, this would seem to be a conscience choice of the Trolls. Look, we all know that the goals of TLG have never been to define things so rigidly as to make the CK feel like he can't add his own flavor to anything. I would believe that is why through 6 printings of the PHB there are still little debates on things as to how they are intended to work. Those of you that have talked to various Trolls, and the head man Steve himself, should probably have noticed that those dudes don't want to make hard line rules for every situation. That is just not how they roll.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by serleran »

The runes are clearly subjective, descriptive, not prescriptive.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

The runes are clear enough for the most part. A few are not completely what I would call concise, but I would prefer to be able to adjudicate as the CK, as I see fit. My dislike on this book is the d6/d8 HD thing, and please, please do not tell me that was intentional. It was not. As well as the list of the schools of runes and then not having them included. I spent effort searching the book for the missing runes that were not there at all. D'oh!

Ok, and that brings up another gripe of mine. World settings that are strewn across source books, campaign books and other sources. All those wonderful city descriptions and city/town populations for Aihrde, stuck in the Rune Lore book, is upsetting to me. That stuff should be in the Ring of Brass Airhde setting book. All of the main cities are described in that tome but not a single population for them. Then out of nowhere, that information shows up in the Rune Lore book. I hope that the Rune Lore Aihrde world specific stuff makes it into the updated Rings of Brass. That would be freaking awesome!

I do not get the relic thing at all. Anyone use that or understand it? The concept is cool, but I cannot make sense of how it works.

The artwork is off the hook. If the Trolls have anything right al the way, I think it is the art.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, the D6/d8 thins is a mistake, and I saw Steve post how it is supposed to be, but for the life of me I cannot remember if he said its all supposed to be d6, or all D8. I just recall it isn't supposed to be both, I think. Which is why I wanted to find his post about it, but have failed.

As for the missing runes, that is intentional, hence the PDF, and then print, book of more that Steve is supposed to do, to fill in those blanks.

I do agree that for the Runes that are there, a consistent format, as similar as possible to that used for all other spells in the game, should have been used. When we are looking something up, we want answers so we an quickly move on, not have to take even more time to make a ruling on how we want it to work from now on. Plus, by using a similar format to spells, we would also have the feeling of familiarity. This format is simply jarring because it doesn't follow a known, comfortable, format. Then add in ambiguities, and it becomes even more disruptive to our comfort level. So I do agree that the Runes were not handled in anything close to the most optimal way possible, but what is there is usable. We know how spell CL's are set, the book even says so when used versus a target and versus no target, they do spell out things like damage done, how much can be effected, but have failed to give precise durations for all the runes, but do so for most.

Hopefully Steve has actually made progress on those PDF's, but I haven't seen any mention of them since the first and only time I caught it. So I doubt it, especially with everything else he is managing and trying to get done since then.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by Snoring Rock »

True. It has been a long Troll year thus far. I am getting antsy for a color M&T with less errata.

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Re: Rune Lore

Post by DMSamuel »

Arduin wrote:
DMSamuel wrote: However, their editing/proofing hasn't improved in the intervening years.
Really? The PHB 6th Printing is MUCH improved. Did you buy it?
Of course! Perhaps I should have said "hasn't improved MUCH in the intervening years."

Yes, they have improved over their original quality, but it is still atrocious.

And yes WOTC editing is also horrendous, as are many other RPG products. But still, as a huge C&C fan, I wish it was better.
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