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Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:19 pm
by Damon Griffin
D&D 3.0 had a sort of "enchantment tax" whereby enchanting a sword to +1 added no atk/dmg bonus because all magic weapons were automatically Masterwork; Masterwork already granted a +1 bonus; and the two bonuses did not stack.
C&C does not assume that all magic weapons are Expert or Greater Expert, as shown by this passage in Monsters & Treasure:
Any item can be imbued with magical qualities. A sword can
be imbued to conferring a bonus to damage, or a potato can
be imbued so that it is always hot. Cost is not an issue unless
the character desires the item to be exquisite or impressive. For
instance, consider a powerful lord that commissions a wizard
to create a powerful magical item for use in battle. Would the
lord want a small stick to carry into combat, or a massive gilded
lance made of the finest wood? The character decides.
--- Monsters & Treasure p.124
So my question is, if I have a Greater Expert weapon, and pay a 9th L Wizard the cost to give it a magical +1 enhancement, do I still have a +1 weapon, or is it now +2 to atk/dmg? I can't find anything in the rules that explicitly says one way or the other.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:32 pm
by Captain_K
The expert weapons are 5% better than their other more normal brothers and sisters. Just like a 1st level fighter gets a +1 over a first level Ranger. None of this is magical in nature and cannot strike many creatures. So the +1 magic will always be that. The masterwork is a different +1. So rather you make the sword +2 most times but only +1 magical is up to you. The rule is likely not written, your call.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:42 pm
by Omote
The quality characteristics for armor, weapons, and other items in my games plays a big part. I play with various qualities of equipment including broken, poor quality (-1/-1), standard quality, expert quality (+1), and greater expert quality (+1/+1). These are considered mundane characteristics that can be added to a piece of equipment's overall mechanical profile. Because of this, I tend to limit magic items a bit more than perhaps most CKs do. However, magic items do exist and their abilities are not mundane in nature. Mundane/magical; two different mechanical concepts in my mind, so I let mundane and magical qualities combine (stack). I see no reason why the best mundane items crafted with expert precision cant be further enhanced with magic.
So in my games, a poor quality item (-1/-1) can be magical +1 for an overall bonus of +0. Sure it's made poorly, or functions sub-par, but when graced with magic performs as well as any standard quality item. Likewise, a greater expert quality longsword (+1/+1) that is imbued with a wizard's magical engineering would grant another +1 (or +2, +3, +4, +5) for a total overall bonus of +2. It all stacks baby!
On top of that I also play with an extensive list of "mundane" materials that can add an overall mechanical effect of equipment, but that is for another discussion.
The bottom line is, I think player's tend to appreciate the little mechanical effects of expert and greater expert quality items, particularly at low character levels. A nice description of a beautiful weapon is good and all, but once a player has a +1 to it, I think it makes the player more excited and may encourage better roleplay. YMMV. But I think it's also important for the CK to play up these bonuses wisely and avoid the munchkinism that can destroy games if not handled properly -- too many pluses may unbalance parties, and outclass enemies/monsters.
~O
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:53 pm
by Treebore
+1 Expert is not magical +1, so a +1 Magic weapon is just that, a +1 MAGIC weapon. So all your doing for that first +! is turning it from NON magical to Magical. So save some gold and enchant a non Expert grade weapon. So the only real benefit you would get is that Expert Weapon, now being enchanted, would be able to hit the few creatures in the Monster books that require magic weapons to hit them. Which your real happy to have when you face those creatures, but until then it feels like a waste of gold. That is how adventurous types survive, though. Being ready to fight the rare and unexpected.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:20 pm
by Go0gleplex
Also the base materials of the item being enchanted should make a difference as well. Steel vs Mithril vs Adamantite or Orichalcum for example.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:54 pm
by Lurker
I always looked at it (back in the day when I DMed) as a magical weapon WAS first an expert quality weapon. The base +1 magic gave the same +1 to hit as the master work cousin. However, the 'magic' had other effects too. The weapon was permanently sharpened, better resisted rust etc. Also, it does give the ability to hit creatures that are immune to attacks from mundane weapons and attacks. This way the weapon does not need the daily sharpening, oiling etc etc etc and has less a chance of being bent broken in combat (a true danger sown in the Sagas etc)
If push came to shove, you could say the masterwork +1 weapon properly in-spelled with a +1 is now a +2 weapon, or say it is still only +1 but with the magic benefit mentioned.
Now, I'm a fan of weapons developing as a character grows. The Sagas never mention Hero X having a weapon then finding another slightly better weapon on a battle field, then a bit later finding another slightly better weapon etc etc etc. The are 'Ulig son of Ulif was gifted a weapon called Boar's tooth wielded by his forefather to some renown, and he uses it through his long life of historic deeds, adding his pride and renown to the famous blade. So I always let a weapon grow with a character . With that it was the norm in my games that a masterwork weapon would be the birth right or knighting gift from a lord or sovereign, then the weapon would be en-spelled to be improved, then later blessed to be more effective against something specific, then take on a benefit that reflect a character's personality or historic heroic actions.
Oh yeah, back to your post / question ... I doo not assume an expert weapon is ostentatious or ornate, it can be if desired, but a weapon made for utility but made to fit a specific person's hand and balanced for their style of fighting is master work without the gaudy gilded bejeweled bling reflected in exquisite impressive statement from the book.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:07 am
by Rigon
I prefer any object can be made magical. One of my favorite magic weapons when I played IceWind Dale was an axe that was so poorly made, that it normally had a penalty to hit. The backstory for the axe was something like the wife of the smith carried the weapon as a keepsake after her husband died and she used it, a lot. Through her devotion and love, the weapon gained some magical property and was an effective weapon for a low level party.
In my current game, I am experimenting with having magical effects develop for a character's signature weapons. It seems to be working out fairly well and the character's have some pretty unique items now.
R-
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:35 pm
by serleran
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Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:58 am
by serleran
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Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:11 am
by Spade Marlowe
I have a similar question as the OP, but specifically to shields and armor. In the PHB, an expert shield has a +1 bonus. So what's the difference (besides looks and cost) between an expert shield and a +1 magic shield? Does a magic expert shield have a +2 bonus?
Added an edit because I just read serleran's post (they don't stack). I guess that means the only advantage to a +1 magic shield I'd that it won't break as easy. Makes me think that maybe magic shields/armor should be more rare, but they'll should also have additional enchantments (fire resistance or such), i.e. there are no plain '+1' shields.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:01 pm
by Buttmonkey
If you want to differentiate magical from expert armor/shields, you could have the magical ones radiate light like magic swords and daggers.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
by Snoring Rock
The way I play magic armor is that the bonus works against undead touch attacks from incorporeal creatures. Expert work armor does not help in that area.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:04 pm
by Treebore
serleran wrote:I totally forgot I had this... and I don't think I shared it before.
Material makes the item, quite literally. A sword made of feathers is likely less effective than one made of the finest steel available. For the Castle Keeper that wants to add an additional layer of detail and complication, what follows is a general list of some possible media which might be used to manufacture arms and armor, each provided with the modifiers applied for its use, how innately magical it is (expressed as a value called Max Enchant which measures the highest “plus” which can be bestowed) and a degradation factor (to help determine when or if the item becomes damaged, the value added as a save bonus). Some are far more involved than others, and none need to be used – indeed, the list itself is purposefully vague to allow completion or reduction as desired.
Material / AC Modifier / Damage Mod / Encumbrance Mod / Degradation / Max Enchant
Adamantine / +2 / +1 Die / +2 / +4 / +5
Bone (Ivory) -1 / +1 / +1 / +2 / +3
Brass / -2 / Lower Die / +1 / -1 / +2
Bronze / -1 / +1 / -1 / +1 / +3
Chitin / -2 / +1 / -1 / -1 / +2
Cloth, Heavy / -1 / -- / -- / -2 / +3
Cloth, Light / -2 / -- / -1 / -3 / +2
Cord / -2 / Lower Die / +1 / -3 / +1
Crystal (Gem) / +1 / Lower Die / +2 / +2 / +3
Earthenware / -2 / -1 Die / +1 / +1 / +2
Electrum / -1 / +1 / -- / +2 / +3
Element, Alchemical / +1 / Higher Die / -1 / +2 / +3
Element, Classical / +1 / +1 Die / -1 / +3 / +5
Element, Non-Classical / +2 / +1 Die / -1 / +3 / +4
Feather / -2 / Lower Die x2 / -2 / -3 / +3
Glass / -2 / -1 Die / +1 / -2 / +2
Glassteel / +1 / +1 Die / -- / +3 / +5
Gold / -2 / Lower Die / +3 / +2 / +3
Hide, Reptile / +1 / -- / +1 / -1 / +2
Hide, Thick / +1 / -- / +1 / +1 / +2
Hide, Thin / -1 / -- / -1 / -1 / +3
Iron Alloy / +1 / +1 / -- / +1 / +3
Iron, Cold / +1 / Lower Die / +2 / +4
Iron, Forged / +1 / +1 / +2 / +3
Iron, Meteoric / +1 / Higher Die / +3 / +5
Ironwood / +1 / +1 / +2 / +3
Layered Mail / +1 / -- / +1 / +3
Layered Plate / +2 / -- / +2 / +3
Leather, Hard / +1 / Lower Die / +1 / +3
Leather, Soft / -1 / -- / -1 / +2
Mithral / +1 / +2 / +3 / +4
Monster Bits / +1 / +1 / +1 / +4
Paper / -2 / -- / -4 / +3
Raw Magic / +2 / Higher Die / +4 / +5
Reed (Plant Fiber) / -2 / -1 / -3 / +3
Rubber / +1 / -1 / -2 / +2
Shell (Coral) / -1 / -1 / +1 / +2
Silver / -1 / -1 / +1 / +3
Steel / +2 / +2 / +2 / +3
Stone, Quarry /+1 / -1 / +1 / +2
Stone, Volcanic / +1 / +1 / +2 / +3
True Metal / +2 / +1 / +3 / +5
Wood, Hard / +1 / -1 / +1 / +3
Wood, Petrified / +1 / +1 / +2 / +4
Wood, Soft / -1 / -- / -1 / +2
The original document contained notes on cost, locations to be found, and some quick details about folklore (for example, cold iron is more effective vs. fairies) which I have somehow managed to not locate... this was restored from a corrupt file I rescued from a broken DVD.
Anyway, the goal was also to include some ideas for use with any magic item, not just weapons and armor, but I think you get the concept. Some things, like orichalcum were left out specifically but this material should be considered an alchemical element instead.
I think I have your originals. They are much nicer. Some of your armor/weapon docs even had pictures, and the info is all in nice tables. I will upload all your docs that I have to G Drive and send you the link via this forum once I get it done.
Edit: Check your PM's, if you haven't already seen it.
Re: Enchanting Expert and Greater Expert Weapons
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 pm
by Lurker
NICE thanks for sharing !!!