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Expert or Master Works 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Expert or Master Works
Per the PH, for 10x to 25x cost you can buy items that give you a +1 to hit or damage or armor or I suppose +1 or +5% to prime function if you want to extend it to things like Masterwork lock picks or an Expert Holy Symbol, etc. They introduce damage reduction in armor to PCs too..

Do you allow expert or greater expert bucklers? spears? sling? clubs? or even rocks? Base of 1 gp x10 or x25? Or some min of 50 to 125 gp?

Makes sense that if you look long enough you will find the perfect stone.. anyone who's skipped stones know they are not all equal.. so 1 in 20 or one per our of searching yields the "perfect" stone to give you a +1 to hit or a rough and sharp one to give +1 damage? Seams more logical than paying someone to make expert "bullets".

Thoughts?

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Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:49 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Yes, anything can be "experted" except "fist" since that becomes "cestus."

The cost may or may not be relevant. Locating enough "expert bullets" may take a very long time (1 per hour seems dreadfully slow and very boring -- only useful when the party has lots of downtime to burn) or there may not even be enough in the area to qualify so it becomes more convenient to pay some knapper or mason a small fee to get them crafted.


Oh, and not all "expert" qualities are the same. Sure, +1 to hit or damage for a weapon is fine, but what about better range or even an extra attack every 2-3 rounds? Price goes up with the trait.


Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:48 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
thanks for the thoughtful reply... but I got to tell you "fist" has the best masterwork... the MONK!

I agree.. arrows for distance, arrows for piercing of armor, arrows to do damage to non-armor, arrow to stun.. not really a green arrow fan.. but let the archer have some fun with it.

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:35 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Oh I'm an avid fan of "masterwork" and not only the standard arms and armor. A masterwork club or staff (along with the mentioned stone / sling bullet) could be a life saver for a poor 1st level character.

serleran wrote:
Yes, anything can be "experted" except "fist" since that becomes "cestus."

The cost may or may not be relevant. Locating enough "expert bullets" may take a very long time (1 per hour seems dreadfully slow and very boring -- only useful when the party has lots of downtime to burn) or there may not even be enough in the area to qualify so it becomes more convenient to pay some knapper or mason a small fee to get them crafted.


Oh, and not all "expert" qualities are the same. Sure, +1 to hit or damage for a weapon is fine, but what about better range or even an extra attack every 2-3 rounds? Price goes up with the trait.


Nice point on additional range etc. I've never thought of that ... I'll have to add that to my bag of options. Thanks!

Rgr on "so it becomes more convenient to pay some knapper or mason a small fee" ... I have had bags of master work stones / bullets as part of a lower leve treasure, and had characters buy them, but I have never had characters try and find them on their own.

Oh yeah, I've had / used masterwork items like cloths etc especially when in around or dealing with kings/imperial courts and the like. It is one thing to go in front of a Viking Jarl in common or even good cloths, it is another to be standing in front of the Emperor of the Western Empire !

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:25 am
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Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Is magic armor considered masterwork, and if it is, does it also give damage reduction?


Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:34 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Kayolan wrote:
Is magic armor considered masterwork, and if it is, does it also give damage reduction?


Not necessarily as C&C has no requirement that the item be of the best quality and form.

Even if so, the Castle Keeper can rule that the magical enhancement overrules the "masterwork" trait.

Or, doesn't even use damage reduction, like me, as it is a needlessly complex addition to extend combat for no good reason.


Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:14 pm
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Battle Stag
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
I use expert craft and greater expert craft items, armor, weapons extensively in my games - even more than magic items in many cases. I've definitely ruled that magic items don't need to be of expert craft or greater expertcraft in order to be magical. The thought is the magic upgrades the equipment regardless of make. It's been pretty fun to have some absolute junk-looking items also be hidden in magical enchantment.

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Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:50 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Damage reduction is a whole other area.. its one more step in combat.. would be a cool spell or short duration magic item or potion, but to deal with it all the time seems like a pain... that said.. magic items are made from the best and finest when price is not an issue when you're say a prince... you want it all to look good.. but what would an Orc magical club start looking like?? What would their masterwork be? Plus also like having magical items spontaneously be created.. through acts of "the gods", universal or cosmic happen stance or just so darn much luck has occurred that sword is now +1 to hit... if you take a lesson from Brust.. magic items are when strong individuals die and some portion of their soul or power or aura permeates some close item at the time and place of their death (i.e. magical INT and aligned items).

expert or master work items expensive and cheap are great starting points and usually I would say the magic supplants the MW with magic not adding pluses just changing their nature to the truly magical which give them the next up level of status (ie hitting things and being stronger than mundane and stronger than master works).

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Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:02 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
Captain_K wrote:
Damage reduction is a whole other area.. its one more step in combat.. would be a cool spell or short duration magic item or potion, but to deal with it all the time seems like a pain... that said.. magic items are made from the best and finest when price is not an issue when you're say a prince... you want it all to look good.. but what would an Orc magical club start looking like?? What would their masterwork be?

Plus also like having magical items spontaneously be created.. through acts of "the gods", universal or cosmic happen stance or just so darn much luck has occurred that sword is now +1 to hit... if you take a lesson from Brust.. magic items are when strong individuals die and some portion of their soul or power or aura permeates some close item at the time and place of their death (i.e. magical INT and aligned items).

expert or master work items expensive and cheap are great starting points and usually I would say the magic supplants the MW with magic not adding pluses just changing their nature to the truly magical which give them the next up level of status (ie hitting things and being stronger than mundane and stronger than master works).


Rgr on that.

However, I do tend to lean towards an item being masterwork before they are magical.

That said, masterwork is not always flashy ornate ... sometimes it is the local blacksmith that was the character's fathers best friend putting a little something more special in the sword that he made just for the character ... a little better balance just for the boy he has known for the last 18 years, a little more time making sure the hilt is a perfect fit ... Side by side it may look like any other average long sword, but in the character's hand, it is perfect for him.

Then on top of that, the character spends a night in a dungeon with a fountain blessed by a god he worships, and then finishes killing off all the undead in the area, and now that sword is ... Dardo, a magic blessed sword - Hmmmm I wonder who I'm talking about :lol:

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Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:58 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Expert or Master Works
(My response to this from the KotC site, expanded a little)

I rarely use them. If the players want such weapons or armor, they have to first find someone capable of creating them. Other items such as jewelry, statuary, clothing, etc. are treated similarly though the benefits of such work may be far different based on intended use and the item itself.

I also define expert and masterwork separately.

Expert are generally higher class goods and around double or triple pricing but no bonuses. These are vanity items for showing off and parading around like a peacock or appeasing expectations of social status or position.

Masterwork are the things that get pricey and are always commissioned works for specific individuals in my game, thus the price varies and they only get a to hit bonus for weapons or the defense bonus if armor when fitted to the specific individual. Otherwise they are just pricey treasures some chump may assume will work just as well for them without extensive reworking. The price comes down some if the commissioning character provides some or all of the materials to be used for the item. Said materials, such as gems, influencing the final result based on their inherent properties; especially if the item is intended to be enchanted at some point.

Rocks are rocks. Never treated them as special unless they are worked by a master stone cutter or gemologist for whatever reason. (the d4! Not only serves as excellent caltrops but also quite lethal sling bullets! :twisted: )

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Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:25 pm
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