BtHB progression beyond 12th level...

[imweasel]

How does it go? +1/level for all classes? If not all, what is the formula?

Or does it even go? Does it end at 12th level?

I am curious since I am thinking about converting my old Ad&D high level paladin (who has not been played since 2E) over to C&C. I am thinking of reviving our current groups old characters to run through the Bloodstone modules.

I will say this, C&C paladins seem to be far weaker than their 1st or 2e counterparts, especially when taking in the epp requirements.

I guess the only saving grace is there seems to be no limit to the number of magic items a C&C paladin can possess, unlike 1e or 2e.
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[gideon_thorne]

For now, just follow the logical progression in the books. The pattern is established and isn't too hard to extrapolate. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

Yeah follow the pattern.

If you don't like their power do what I did. Essentially give them the RAnger's Marauder power against Evil, but they have to chose groups of evil. The choice can be made along racial lines or religious affiliations. They chose their first at 9th level and get to chose a new one every two levels. So your 12th level Paladin would get to chose two and his next at thirteenth. This replaces Smite Evil.
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[imweasel]

Treebore wrote:
Yeah follow the pattern.

If you don't like their power do what I did. Essentially give them the RAnger's Marauder power against Evil, but they have to chose groups of evil. The choice can be made along racial lines or religious affiliations. They chose their first at 9th level and get to chose a new one every two levels. So your 12th level Paladin would get to chose two and his next at thirteenth. This replaces Smite Evil.

I think we are just going to go with 1+ cha mod/per day for smite evil, though your idea has merit and I will offer that to the group as an alternative idea.

Still kicking around the divine healing, probably will go with 1/week at 12th and +1 every 4 levels, i.e. 2/week at 16th, 3/week at 20th, so on and so forth.
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[Turanil]

imweasel wrote:
I will say this, C&C paladins seem to be far weaker than their 1st or 2e counterparts, especially when taking in the epp requirements.

I think it's easy to fix: add back the spell progression from AD&D 1e or 2e paladins (maybe beginning at 9th or 10th instead of 8th), and they should be okay.
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[imweasel]

Turanil wrote:
I think it's easy to fix: add back the spell progression from AD&D 1e or 2e paladins (maybe beginning at 9th or 10th instead of 8th), and they should be okay.

We are considering that as well, but we hate hauling books around and even more so charts.

The group is trying to reach a consensus, as our games will be episodic with multiple people running adventures. So we want to come up with 'universal' modifications that are palatable by all.

I guess it's the one curse of C&C's great flexibility. There are gaps in the game we just don't understand on why they are there.
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[Treebore]

Paladins aren't weak. I guess everyone forgets they are effectively immune to mind control too. At least a half dozen times if the Paladin had not been immune to Charm/mind control type spells the party would have died.

I agree they seem to lack combat "punch", which is why I gave them a more strictly defined "Combat MArauder" ability. Now they think they are better than the Ranger.

Plus we are now getting into the phase of the campaign where they fight a lot of demons, many of whom also like to use mind control. So the Paladin is going to rock.
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[gideon_thorne]

I just gave all the combat classes (ranger, paladin, barbarian, knight) Combat Dominance at first level. The Fighter gets an extra attack at 7th and 10th level.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[imweasel]

Treebore wrote:
Paladins aren't weak. I guess everyone forgets they are effectively immune to mind control too. At least a half dozen times if the Paladin had not been immune to Charm/mind control type spells the party would have died.

I never said they were 'weak'. I said they are weaker than their 1e and 2e counterparts, especially when you take the epp into account at lower levels.

Treebore wrote:
I agree they seem to lack combat "punch", which is why I gave them a more strictly defined "Combat MArauder" ability. Now they think they are better than the Ranger.

Which is why my group is looking at tweaking them. We just can't understand some of the holes in C&C.

Treebore wrote:
Plus we are now getting into the phase of the campaign where they fight a lot of demons, many of whom also like to use mind control. So the Paladin is going to rock.

We don't have an 'official' campaign or 'world'. It's episodic, with multiple ck's, going through old modules. So we need to come to agreement on tweaks and systems not covered in C&C.
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[Treebore]

imweasel

Which is why my group is looking at tweaking them. We just can't understand some of the holes in C&C.

[quote="Treebore wrote:
Plus we are now getting into the phase of the campaign where they fight a lot of demons, many of whom also like to use mind control. So the Paladin is going to rock.

We don't have an 'official' campaign or 'world'. It's episodic, with multiple ck's, going through old modules. So we need to come to agreement on tweaks and systems not covered in C&C.[/quote]

The holes, some of them anyways, don't know about any particulars, was because it was intentional. They intended, wanted, or knew people were going to house rule the heck out of C&C. So they did the basics, leaving those who want more to house rule it in.

For instance, it is easy as pie to use the 1E or 2E Paladin as written in C&C. Still, I prefer the C&C version, especially with the additional tweaks I have house ruled.

I've done "episodic", kind of round-table gaming before, it was a lot of fun. Your right, it is important for you all to be CKing from the same page of rules. Should be a blast!
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[imweasel]

Treebore wrote:
The holes, some of them anyways, don't know about any particulars, was because it was intentional. They intended, wanted, or knew people were going to house rule the heck out of C&C. So they did the basics, leaving those who want more to house rule it in.

Ya, but it doesn't make it any less of a pain though. Some of the holes just don't make sense. Some could be typos or misprints and it can be quite difficult to determine the designers intent.
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[rabindranath72]

imweasel wrote:
Ya, but it doesn't make it any less of a pain though. Some of the holes just don't make sense. Some could be typos or misprints and it can be quite difficult to determine the designers intent.

Well, there is a huge difference between a typo and the paladin not casting spells You can simply take the cleric's spellcasting table, and make it start at 9th level (or whatever level you like), following the progression until 4th level spells are cast. It cannot get easier than this.

[serleran]

There are no "holes" in C&C. There are simply opportunities to add what you want.

One design decision regarding C&C is this, simply: it is easy to add to the game.

Another thing to remember: C&C is not AD&D or D&D... it is C&C. It is compatible with these things, but it is not either of them. Therefore, the C&C version of certain classes do not have spellcasting abilities... this doesn't mean it is a "hole," because its exactly how C&C intended them to be.

[Fizz]

Treebore wrote:
I agree they seem to lack combat "punch", which is why I gave them a more strictly defined "Combat MArauder" ability. Now they think they are better than the Ranger.

I just give them Smite at an earlier level, and have it advance to multiple times per day at higher levels.

-Fizz

[ChaosImp]

serleran wrote:
There are no "holes" in C&C. There are simply opportunities to add what you want.

One design decision regarding C&C is this, simply: it is easy to add to the game.

Another thing to remember: C&C is not AD&D or D&D... it is C&C. It is compatible with these things, but it is not either of them. Therefore, the C&C version of certain classes do not have spellcasting abilities... this doesn't mean it is a "hole," because its exactly how C&C intended them to be.

Here ! Here ! I get a bit tired of comparisons too.

IMP

[Zudrak]

gideon_thorne wrote:
For now, just follow the logical progression in the books. The pattern is established and isn't too hard to extrapolate. ^_^

My brother and I extrapolated the BtH's for the classes. I'll post it tonight if I get a chance.
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AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[imweasel]

serleran wrote:
There are no "holes" in C&C. There are simply opportunities to add what you want.

Like I said, it's a bane as much as it is an opportunity. Sometimes it's hard to decide what the designers intent is/was/or will be.
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[imweasel]

rabindranath72 wrote:
Well, there is a huge difference between a typo and the paladin not casting spells You can simply take the cleric's spellcasting table, and make it start at 9th level (or whatever level you like), following the progression until 4th level spells are cast. It cannot get easier than this.

The missing clerical spells in the paladin class between editions is not the 'holes' my group is considering.

Our group is thinking of giving a paladin clerical casting ability equal to 10 levels lower, i.e. at 11th level a paladin casts the same number of spells as a first level cleric, with no wisdom bonus. This might be extended to rangers with respect to druid spells.
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[Zudrak]

Zudrak wrote:
My brother and I extrapolated the BtH's for the classes. I'll post it tonight if I get a chance.

It's hard to type into a post what my brother and I did on a chart and MS Excel. We came up with 5 charts, one each for the fighter, non-fighter warriors, the thief (rogue), the wizard, and the cleric. Here goes (note that I do not plan on running a game where a wizard hits 78th level just to get a second attack):

Fighter: BtH = Level. At 10th level, the fighter gets a second atk of equal value (+10/+10). At 20th level, the fighter get a third (and final) attack of ten less than the first two attacks. The value = +20/+20/+10.

All other warriors: BtH = Level minus 1. At 21st level, these warriors gain a 2nd and final attack of ten less than the first attack. The value = +20/+10.

Thief (Rogue): Lvl 1: +0, Lvl 2: +1, Lvl 5: +2. The thief (rogue) gains an additional +1 at 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, 20th, 23rd, 26th, 29th, etc. At 59th level, when his/her BtH reaches +20, the thief gains a second attack of ten less than the first attack. The value = +20/+10.

Wizard: Lvl 1: +0, Lvl 2: +1, Lvl 6: +2, Lvl 10: +3, etc. Every four levels, the wizard's BtH increases by 1. At 78th level, when his/her BtH reaches +20, the wizard gains a second attack of ten less than the first attack. The value = +20/+10.

Cleric: Lvl 1: +0, Lvl 2: +1, Lvl 4: +2, Lvl 6: +3, etc. Every two levels, the cleric's BtH increases by 1. At 40th level, when his/her BtH reaches +20, the cleric gains a second attack of ten less than the first attack. The value = +20/+10.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Fizz]

Well, you can simplify everything to a few formulae. Then regardless of level, you can easily figure it out.

Fighters: BtH = level

Warrior types: BtH = level - 1

Cleric: BtH = level / 2

Rogue: BtH= ( level + 1 ) / 3

Wizard: BtH= ( level + 2 ) / 4

Always round down, and you'll get the correct values.

-Fizz

[Zudrak]

Fizz wrote:
Well, you can simplify everything to a few formulae. Then regardless of level, you can easily figure it out.

Fighters: BtH = level

Warrior types: BtH = level - 1

Cleric: BtH = level / 2

Rogue: BtH= ( level + 1 ) / 3

Wizard: BtH= ( level + 2 ) / 4

Always round down, and you'll get the correct values.

-Fizz

Yeah, what Fizz said. At 12:15 AM, it's easier to just write it all out instead of think.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Moorcrys]

If you're going to be playing high level games, I wouldn't see any issue with adding the paladin's clerical spell progression chart from the AD&D PH and addng their charisma bonus to smite evil per day. Around 12th they are really taking a hit experience-wise so it wouldn't be crazy in my opinion. I might do something a little differently and allow them (through a quest or some other adventure hook) to get a sweet paladin-like magical weapon with some cool abilities.

Stolen from my friends campaign I played growing up, in my game there are empty setting-places for five gems along the base of the blade or haft of a paladin's favored weapon, the setting places aligned in a star or cross-like pattern. As the paladin gains experience, shows virtue, and acquires rank in their order, a gem is set (either divinely or through the order itself) within the weapon -- each gem storing some blessing which is granted to the paladin when he wields it. A paladin wielding a weapon set with all five gems is a paragon of his order and through it has a handful of character-specific powers to be used.
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Moorcrys

[imweasel]

Moorcrys wrote:
If you're going to be playing high level games, I wouldn't see any issue with adding the paladin's clerical spell progression chart from the AD&D PH and addng their charisma bonus to smite evil per day. Around 12th they are really taking a hit experience-wise so it wouldn't be crazy in my opinion. I might do something a little differently and allow them (through a quest or some other adventure hook) to get a sweet paladin-like magical weapon with some cool abilities.

Stolen from my friends campaign I played growing up, in my game there are empty setting-places for five gems along the base of the blade or haft of a paladin's favored weapon, the setting places aligned in a star or cross-like pattern. As the paladin gains experience, shows virtue, and acquires rank in their order, a gem is set (either divinely or through the order itself) within the weapon -- each gem storing some blessing which is granted to the paladin when he wields it. A paladin wielding a weapon set with all five gems is a paragon of his order and through it has a handful of character-specific powers to be used.

Tell your friend that if we ever play a campaign (our current episodic one is to 'test drive' C&C) that our group might steal that too.
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[imweasel]

Fizz wrote:
Well, you can simplify everything to a few formulae. Then regardless of level, you can easily figure it out.

Fighters: BtH = level

Warrior types: BtH = level - 1

Cleric: BtH = level / 2

Rogue: BtH= ( level + 1 ) / 3

Wizard: BtH= ( level + 2 ) / 4

Always round down, and you'll get the correct values.

-Fizz

Rep'ed.
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[Zudrak]

imweasel wrote:
Tell your friend that if we ever play a campaign (our current episodic one is to 'test drive' C&C) that our group might steal that too.

Ditto, should the paladin in my current campaign reach high levels. I like that idea.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Moorcrys]

Thanks guys, I'll tell him. He'll be pleased. He had an incredible imagination... always fun to game with him at the helm.
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Moorcrys