Where are the demons/devils?

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Yamo
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Where are the demons/devils?

Post by Yamo »

I know the "named" ones like Orcus and Demogorgon are probably off-limites for copyright reasons, but doesn't it seem odd that Monsters & Treasures mirrors the old Monster Manual so much, yet doesn't include demon and devil sections?

What gives?

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Post by serleran »

Actually, only a few of the OAD&D demons aren't available for general use, as they are names taken straight out of mythology. As to where the demons are... the Trolls didn't want them in the book. Demons (and devils) will be in a book of their own, to actually give them the write-ups they deserve, rather than a scant 2-3 pages. Also, demons tend to be high-level game material... something C&C supports, but after years of play, so they aren't really "iconic" foes for the starting player; they are for the experienced ones, but C&C is not "just for those with years of gaming." Its actually designed for new players.

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Post by Yamo »

serleran wrote:
Actually, only a few of the OAD&D demons aren't available for general use, as they are names taken straight out of mythology. As to where the demons are... the Trolls didn't want them in the book. Demons (and devils) will be in a book of their own, to actually give them the write-ups they deserve, rather than a scant 2-3 pages. Also, demons tend to be high-level game material... something C&C supports, but after years of play, so they aren't really "iconic" foes for the starting player; they are for the experienced ones, but C&C is not "just for those with years of gaming." Its actually designed for new players.

So there might be more C&C monster books, then? That would be excellent.

Until then, I guess I'll just convert the ones from my old AD&D hardbacks.

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Post by Rigon »

Yamo wrote:
So there might be more C&C monster books, then? That would be excellent.

Until then, I guess I'll just convert the ones from my old AD&D hardbacks.

I believe there are 2 more monster books, Gods and Demons and 1001 Monster, slated for sometime down the road. Though that may have changed since last I heard.

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Post by Treebore »

Well, I have heard 3 type of titles badied about. The two you mention Rigon, and something called Monsters and Treasures 2.
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Post by serleran »

Its more like this:

Monsters and Treasure II

Gods and Demons

Monster of Airdhe

Monsters of Inzae

1001 Monsters

When? No idea.

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Post by Prince of Happiness »

Thinking more on it, I think it would be cooler to have demons/devils more open to fit into what's more setting appropriate rather than a race of interdimensional meanies who have names like tanar'ri or baatezu (I mean really, what in the hell are those names? Is it really much more demonic to h'ave r'an'd'om a'po'st'rop'he's'?)

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Post by Yamo »

Prince of Happiness wrote:
Thinking more on it, I think it would be cooler to have demons/devils more open to fit into what's more setting appropriate rather than a race of interdimensional meanies who have names like tanar'ri or baatezu (I mean really, what in the hell are those names? Is it really much more demonic to h'ave r'an'd'om a'po'st'rop'he's'?)

Considering that C&C is an "old-school" style game, I doubt they would repeat that particular mistake.

TSR sure pulled some dumb crap after Gygax got kicked-out.

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Post by Prince of Happiness »

No joke, I want some pretty hardcore creepy monsters with a lot more leeway towards some subtlety and manipulation. And humorous idiotic damned souls.

Yeah they did. MAN alive.

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Re: Where are the demons/devils?

Post by Dangersaurus »

Yamo wrote:
I know the "named" ones like Orcus and Demogorgon are probably off-limites for copyright reasons, but doesn't it seem odd that Monsters & Treasures mirrors the old Monster Manual so much, yet doesn't include demon and devil sections?

What gives?

I did a few and posted them here a while back:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

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Post by Rhuvein »

serleran wrote:
Its more like this:

Monsters and Treasure II

Gods and Demons

Monster of Airdhe

Monsters of Inzae

1001 Monsters

When? No idea.

It's great to know that after I buy the most recent offerings and those almost ready, there will be more fantastic stuff ahead from TLG and serleran!!

Bring it!
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Post by Treebore »

I don't think Orcus can be copyrighted any more than Thor can.

Only specific likeness' created under those names are copyrighted.

Those names are names of deities and demons of real religions, dead or not.

I believe Orcus is even in the bible, not sure though. I know a lot of variant names of Satan and other "devils" are, and those cannot be copyrighted.

Any name you see in the old TSR Deities and Demi Gods based on old religions, such as the Celts, Norse, Hindu, etc... are not copyrightable.

If they were TSR/WOTC would have to go to legal war over Thor. Odin. Loki. Heimdall. You get the picture.
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Post by Beyondthebreach »

I loved the little Troll Tidbit in the intro "For the Castle Keeper" from Usurpers of the Fell Axe.
Quote:
Should the Castle Keeper care to continue this adventure over the next 27 years it will take us to write it, the horn is important for module A13.

Seriously, I love C&C and what I am about to say has probably been discussed before . . . but why the lack of emphasis on Hardcover Rulebooks and/or additional supplements/accessories?

Oh, I realize I am not privy to all the financial, logistical and time constraint considerations that the Trolls must face and I also realize that a great emphasis has been put on Adventures and Campaign Settings. These all support the play of the game and go a long way towards demonstrating that a lot of "Rules" aren't necesary to enjoy C&C and that the company will do its best to support the actual play of the game . . . but still . . .

I love Rulebooks and Accessories . . . I mean . . . I'm playing in a C&C Campaign, but that's it . . . modules might be fun to read, but I won't be utilizing them anytime soon and even though I have several, I am reluctant to read any of them in case my CK decides to integrate one into the campaign someday . . .

Which really leaves me with very little C&C material to just read . . . I mean rulebooks/accessories I can read over and over and over. Take Warhammer 2nd edition - I am not currently playing or running a game, but I have almost every item published for it . . . I love it! Just reading them is enough. I've probably dropped around $400 on a system I may never play!

Anyway . . . adventures don't help me much . . . but a CK Guide? A books of Demons? A new Tome of Spells or Books of Monsters? I'd pre-order them at full price and not even blink.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Beyondthebreach wrote:
time constraint

That pretty much sums it up. It takes time to write the big books.
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Post by Treebore »

I would think that another part about C&C not needing "big" books is that so many other books are already out there.

Meaning C&C is intentionally very easy to house rule (it even screams for them in certain areas, depending on what you want out of your game) so my "big books" are the ones I have from other editons and systems that I want to steal.

Heck, the upcoming StarSIEGE (or whatever it ends up being called) has me looking through my Traveller and GURPS Traveller books.

So I think only the "new" players will need to become more substantial for TLG to have the customer base to buy such books.

Then again I have been getting a distinct impression that very few people actually like to house rule. Most seem to want to be told how to play, and thats it. Most don't want to tweak or fix things, they want it playable as is.

So maybe it would be smart for TLG to start putting out books like the CKG to tell that segmant of gamers how to play C&C.

I'll buy Monster and Treasure type books, but purely monster/demon/devil books? I doubt it. I have over 20 of those from 3 different editons of D&D as it is, plus Paladium, and several others.

So I would have to hear of really cool types of monsters being in them before I would be convinced.
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Post by Beyondthebreach »

Treebore wrote:
I would think that another part about C&C not needing "big" books is that so many other books are already out there.

Meaning C&C is intentionally very easy to house rule (it even screams for them in certain areas, depending on what you want out of your game) so my "big books" are the ones I have from other editons and systems that I want to steal.

You see, I am coming at this from a completely different perspective. I started playing AD&D in 1981 and played until 1990.

Life changed . . . college . . . friends went separate ways . . . etc. Anyway, I lost touch with RPGs and "rediscovered" collecting them in 2000. I recently joined a C&C campaign in January 2007. That marks a 16 years hiatus from playing an RPG!!!

I have many RPG books and have had thousands pass through my hands . . . it's not a question of needing the books for the rules . . . it is of having them to read and own. I enjoy reading RPG rules . . . whenever I have a few free minutes . . . on my break at work . . . before I go to bed . . .getting my car fixed . . . in the bathroom (ewww! ) .

One reason that WotC sells so many books (and Warhammer too) is that they put out books that you don't actually need to use - sometimes it's just fun to buy something and read it. Oh sure, you might use it . . . I still read my 1E AD&D books on occassion . . . I know them backwards and forwards, but they are still enjoyable to look at.

My C&C bookshelf could use a little "life".

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Post by jfall »

Treebore wrote:
Then again I have been getting a distinct impression that very few people actually like to house rule. Most seem to want to be told how to play, and thats it. Most don't want to tweak or fix things, they want it playable as is.

So maybe it would be smart for TLG to start putting out books like the CKG to tell that segmant of gamers how to play C&C.

Treebore, why do you get that impression? I'm just curious...I have my own theories but I'd love to hear what you have to say. I don't mean to hijack this thread btw. Apologies.

As to the book discussion, if you think about it there are many more players out there than DMs right? Well if you were a company that built a business model around selling goods to the smaller segment you'd be loosing out on a lot of moolah.

So (and this is what happened to WotC / Hasbro), you start pumping out "rules" books...material that actually benefits the player. Naturally you make more money, but in my humble opinion you lose in the long run because you've complicated a game that, due to its nature (Role playing), should be simple.

It's a death spiral, players want books to read (I think that Beyondthebreach is the exception rather than the rule) so they go and purchase them. They want their purchase validated and want to bring it to the table, thus causing the DM to either purchase or waste time on research. Seems to me that it sorta takes creativity and imagination out of the loop. Rulespoon anyone?

Certainly just my opinion here. I'm not a big fan of "more" when it comes to rules supplements. If players want something new, then create it in collaboration with the DM.

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Post by Treebore »

I get the impression because of how many people love 3E, because it has rules that cover every situation, or at least the vast majority of them.

I also get it from people who say they don't like C&C because it is so basic.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Treebore wrote:
Most don't want to tweak or fix things, they want it playable as is.

If I buy game. It better be playable as is.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

Treebore wrote:
I get the impression because of how many people love 3E, because it has rules that cover every situation, or at least the vast majority of them.

Yeah, but people still house rule the hell out of it.

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Post by Treebore »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but people still house rule the hell out of it.

You need to visit the rules forum over on WOTC and ENWorld some time. Yeah, there are plenty who want to do things "there way", but it becomes very entertaining when the rules lawyers show up.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Julian Grimm »

I've houseruled it some to fit some things I thought were missing. However as is C&C is very playable out of the box and BtB is sometimes easier IMHO.

Back on topic I'm sure if we dug around there are enough OGL demons and devils to convert into a single document until the official versions are out.
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Post by Dangersaurus »

Treebore wrote:
You need to visit the rules forum over on WOTC and ENWorld some time. Yeah, there are plenty who want to do things "there way", but it becomes very entertaining when the rules lawyers show up.

I don't believe 90% of the people who post to ENWorld ever actually play D&D. Rules lawyering on forums is their game of choice.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Treebore wrote:
You need to visit the rules forum over on WOTC and ENWorld some time. Yeah, there are plenty who want to do things "there way", but it becomes very entertaining when the rules lawyers show up.

In my setting, there's a famous historical event known as "The Night they Burned the Rules Lawyers".
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Post by DangerDwarf »

gideon_thorne wrote:
In my setting, there's a famous historical event known as "The Night they Burned the Rules Lawyers".

And everyone rejoiced.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

Burning is too good for them. My solution to rules lawyers involves Rosie O'Donnel naked.
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Post by imweasel »

Beyondthebreach wrote:
Seriously, I love C&C and what I am about to say has probably been discussed before . . . but why the lack of emphasis on Hardcover Rulebooks and/or additional supplements/accessories?

I actually find it refreshing that this company is not putting out product simply for the sake of 'putting out product', which is how I feel about 3.x.

However, I do agree that the ckg needs to get out asap, before xmas if at all possible.

I like the fact that C&C simply gives you the base tools to build your characters and campaign around without the need to buy 20 books. The game has been out for three(?) years and all I bought was two core books for a total cost of $25 US. I can use all my 'old' books, modules and source books with just a slight bit of 'winging it'.
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Post by imweasel »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Burning is too good for them. My solution to rules lawyers involves Rosie O'Donnel naked.

Thanks. I just had to pop my eyeballs out with a rusty spoon.

At least I feel much better now.
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Post by Beyondthebreach »

imweasel wrote:
I actually find it refreshing that this company is not putting out product simply for the sake of 'putting out product', which is how I feel about 3.x.

Just to be clear . . . I'd like to see 4 or 5 accessories/supplements, not 50 different ones plus a thousand more from other companies like with 3.X.

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Post by jfall »

In the end I suppose everyone has different preferences and it would be absolutely impossible for one company to meet the needs and desires of all those people. Suffice it to say that we (most on these boards) have found our game (and company) of choice.

Since I imagine that most of us have all sorts of supplements from OD&D, Classic D&D, AD&D and where ever else, we quite likely have scads of devils and demons at our fingertips that just need a tweak here or nudge there in order to slip them right into our games.

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