Monster HD/saving throws

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
grubman
Mist Elf
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:00 am

Monster HD/saving throws

Post by grubman »

I'm sure this one has been asked before. I'm not looking for house rules or opinions, just the official answer (with page refference if there is one), as I can't seem to locate one.

Do Monsters use thier HD as a die roll modifier to rolls when making attribute checks?

Thanks.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Re: Monster HD/saving throws

Post by gideon_thorne »

Page 4. M&T Hit Dice. " The hit dice is the equivalent of the monsters level."

So yes. Officially, the # of HD a creature adds to the save, attribute checks and so forth.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

If, monsters had attribute checks, yes. They don't. They have attack rolls and saves.

grubman
Mist Elf
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:00 am

Post by grubman »

serleran wrote:
If, monsters had attribute checks, yes. They don't. They have attack rolls and saves.

Yes, I meant saves.

grubman
Mist Elf
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:00 am

Re: Monster HD/saving throws

Post by grubman »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Page 4. M&T Hit Dice. " The hit dice is the equivalent of the monsters level."

So yes. Officially, the # of HD a creature adds to the save, attribute checks and so forth.

Thanks, that's the way I've been doing it all along, and interperated it...but I was looking for a place where it actually SAID it straight forward rather than just implied it. You know, something that specifically says "Add the monsters hit dice to the save just as you would a characters level" or something.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

"....the orc slides up and reaches into Serleran's pouches and lifts all his gold coins away...." +20 bonus to the orcs Physical prime roll cause of CK fiat...

How does a wild elf 'monster' type use their tracking ability if they cant roll attribute checks mr smarty? Eh? *poke poke*
How does a creature 'scent' and add their 'bonus when using any tracking ability they may possess?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Re: Monster HD/saving throws

Post by gideon_thorne »

grubman wrote:
Thanks, that's the way I've been doing it all along, and interperated it...but I was looking for a place where it actually SAID it straight forward rather than just implied it. You know, something that specifically says "Add the monsters hit dice to the save just as you would a characters level" or something.

Ill make sure Abbot and Costello make it clear in the C&C basic set at least.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Coleston the Cavalier
Unkbartig
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Herrin, IL
Contact:

Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

gideon_thorne wrote:
"....the orc slides up and reaches into Serleran's pouches and lifts all his gold coins away...." +20 bonus to the orcs Physical prime roll cause of CK fiat...

Serl's pouches...
What...

a, did you...

I mean...

Nevermind.
_________________


John Adams

Beyondthebreach
Ungern
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:00 am

Post by Beyondthebreach »

serleran wrote:
If, monsters had attribute checks, yes. They don't. They have attack rolls and saves.

Yeah, I am confused by this as well Serl . . . for instance, the Web spell states that a creature can break free with a Strength Check (Dex Save to avoid, but an attribute check to break free if the save fails).

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Post by Fizz »

Well, one could argue in the case of the Web spell, that the Strength check really is another save. Mechanically, it's the same.

I recall Serl previously talking about how monsters don't have attribute checks. Saves are just a special kind of attribute check.

However, saves are always in response to something else. More typical attribute checks are not.

Maybe it's a matter of terminology...

-Fizz

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

Attribute checks are a subset of saves. Monsters don't have attributes. Therefore, they never make attribute checks, but they do make saves. Fortunately, every attribute check can be tied to a save type (physical or mental) or to a specific attribute (Strength, Dexterity, et cetera) if needed, and each of the attributes is grouped into a "type" so that physical equates to Strength, Dexterity or Constitution and the like. This allows a monster to make a save based on an attribute, but it is not an attribute check. Really, its just terminology. But, monsters never make attribute checks. :)

Alcahaelas
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 am

Post by Alcahaelas »

So, if a Storm Giant wants to topple a mighty monolith onto a party of rude and obnoxious adventurers who keep giving him the finger and flashing their buttocks, how do you resolve that? If the Storm Giant has a strength of 24 (or whatever it is) do they get the strength modifier to their "save" attempt--or do they simply add their hit dice total to the challenge base?

It seems like there is a very fuzzy line here. You could take an equivalent hit dice creature of much smaller stature (call it supergnat) and have them try the same thing and in theory they would have the same chance of success as the storm giant (if both have physical primes). Sure, the CK moderates this himself to figure up the difficulty (challenge level?) for the giant vs supergnat, which would slide in favor of the giant, but technically speaking if you knew the strength of the giant and the supergnat (who's stronger than the average gnat), figure strength is a prime for the giant but not the supergnat, then you would have a challenge base of 12 for one and 18 for the other, add their hit dice...and attribute modifier? Or is the "save" based solely on challenge base + hit dice with no attribute modifier?

And if you thus decide to add the attribute modifier to the equation, doesn't that essentially make it an attribute check?

This is somewhat confusing and seems to shortchange the monsters a bit. Nothing a CK can't rationalize and modify accordingly, of course, so it does seem to merely be an argument of semantics.
_________________
I am not a hamster and Life is not a wheel.
gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

A +10 to a roll, for a Storm Giant, is a pretty significant bonus for a critter that gets a prime in strength more or less.

Monsters make attribute checks just like characters do. It states it clearly in several places. A 'saving throw' is still an attribute check. Semantic quibbling notwithstanding.

The giant's STR bonus and 'level' are all subsumed into that +10 bonus just as the individual stats for creatures are subsumed under P and M.

How the situation is 'resolved' when a giant is toppling a pilar onto a party is exactly the same as any other strength check. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Alcahaelas
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 am

Post by Alcahaelas »

Hooray for Supergnat! He's got a fighting chance.
_________________
I am not a hamster and Life is not a wheel.
gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Post by Fizz »

gideon_thorne wrote:
How the situation is 'resolved' when a giant is toppling a pilar onto a party is exactly the same as any other strength check. ^_^

Except that without explicit attribute scores, you use only the HD as the modifier. Whether it's prime or not is dependent on their Save categories.

PCs have the benefit of adding both their level (hit dice) and attribute modifiers, but won't have as many primes as most monsters.

Because of the importance of primes, imc i specifically spell out the primes for every monster. It quickly enables different kinds of monsters of the same race. A wis prime troll is a different beast than a str prime troll, for example.

Spelling out every attribute score and modifier takes some work, while tweaking primes is fast. I like the philosophy of not spending more time defining something than you will spend actually using it.

-Fizz

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Fizz wrote:
Except that without explicit attribute scores, you use only the HD as the modifier. Whether it's prime or not is dependent on their Save categories.

PCs have the benefit of adding both their level (hit dice) and attribute modifiers, but won't have as many primes as most monsters.

See above where I noted that attribute modifiers and level are subsumed into the creatures HD. ^_~`

In short, its exactly the same.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Post by Fizz »

gideon_thorne wrote:
See above where I noted that attribute modifiers and level are subsumed into the creatures HD. ^_~`

In short, its exactly the same.

Right, i just meant you don't go looking for an attribute modifier for the monster, because it's already included.

That may not always make perfect sense, but should usually get you to within a +1 or +2 equivalence.

-Fizz

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

Quote:
Because of the importance of primes, imc i specifically spell out the primes for every monster.

That was the original method, actually, but for simplicity and to aid the new player who would want something easy to remember, Primes were broken into Physical and Mental. It is a little more complex, but adds a great dimension to the game with only a little more work, and, it still allows actual attribute scores to be avoided.

Just a little serleran trivia...

FCWESEL
Skobbit
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:00 am

Post by FCWESEL »

While I like the fast and loose flow of C&C, I think I would rather have attributes for monsters and critters. It just seems off that they wouldn't have them.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

FCWESEL wrote:
While I like the fast and loose flow of C&C, I think I would rather have attributes for monsters and critters. It just seems off that they wouldn't have them.

They have them. They are just grouped into two categories.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Post by Treebore »

FCWESEL wrote:
While I like the fast and loose flow of C&C, I think I would rather have attributes for monsters and critters. It just seems off that they wouldn't have them.

I used to feel that way, so I looked to the 3E MM's for guidance.

Then I realized I was an experienced enough DM to not need it.

However, young gamers, like my kids as an example, would definitely do better if there were some kind of official guideline.

Like my sone, a week or two ago, was running a game where he was giving some classed bugbears a +4 bonus to STR because that equaled their HD.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

Post Reply