incorperating d20 class feats.

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drakahn99
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incorperating d20 class feats.

Post by drakahn99 »

im considering something liek the following but wanted to see what other CK's who have run longer term games thought of the system, balance wise before i were to let the players do it.

basicaly what im thinking is that a player if they performed a d20 class feat with the siege system. gain the feat in stead of thier next class ability for example a fighter who performs cleave alot in the game. gain that as a feat and not have to make a siege check every time he/she used it, instead of combat dominance.

alternativly im considering something similar to alternate advancement from the everquest game. say that someone wanted to pick up a class feat as a class feature/ability using the above example fighters gain combat dominance at 4th level so i would use the xp required for that level as a base line.

if they take a portion of thier xp and put it into a pool that doesnt gain them xp once they have saved up 4500XP into this pool they could pick up a feat. provided they meet the level requirements for said feat.

both systems seem to work well on paper and allow the players some flexibility in thier roles. of course they also dont need to have the feats this just gives them the advantage of not having to make a siege check every time they atempt it. but so does d20 3.5 work well on paper but in practice its another thing altogther, i also think thats the problem with hasbro/wizards whent they atempt to redoo d&d....

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Post by drakahn99 »

also how does the d20 classes compare to thier c&c counterparts in relative level? like ive mentioned in other threads ive considerd incorperating the 3.5 psionic system into c&c but not sure how it will balance out as it progresses inm power level, i like the idea of it but not sure the idea of it fits well into the game. there is alot that the d20 has that could be added in but i want to be sure its not going to make the game too easy or hard on the players if for example i make a soul knife or arcane archer npc that hunts the players down to posible extinction.

just a thought at any rate.

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Re: incorperating d20 class feats.

Post by gideon_thorne »

With C&C, it isn't necessary. If a player wants to perform a feat like action, just have them describe what they have in mind and assign a to hit penalty to the roll based on an approximation of the difficulty.
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Post by Harry Joy »

Re: Psionics... It's been said here before, but Green Ronin's Psychic looks to be a good drop-fit for C&C. Psionics would be, well, a difficult conversion.

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Post by Treebore »

In my house rules I have them make a SIEGE check to perform anything like a feat. The CL is the comabat experience of the opponent against whom they wish to perform the action against. Meaning their HD or Level.

After an undisclosed number of successes they "earn" that particular maneuver as a character ability and no longer need to roll a SIEGE check against opponents no more than 3 HD higher than they are.

I would suggest a number of SUCCESES be somewhere between 20 and 30 before awarding it.

Thats how I do it.
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Post by CharlieRock »

My gut instinct is ; "why?".
Then I finished reading the posts. Here are some ideas for consideration: Instead of building XP into an ability just charge large piles of GP. GP does have a relative value to XP but spending it doesn't slow down level progression. In fact it is incentive to get more GP.

Wizards could enroll under a mute mentor and develop a "silent spell list" they can freely cast off of. Fighters could enroll in "Hassan's Chop School" and develop cleaving techniques that bolster their regular abilities. Ranger's could buy (off-camera as it were) piles and piles of arrows to burn through until they learn to shoot more then the usual amount.

It is not unknown for people to swap out an ability for combat dominance. A lot of people feel it is an underpowered ability. I don't. But I'm being a bit hypocritical because I have added a slew of abilities to all the classes.

I just didn't like feats from D&D3. I felt they were too constraining:

Player: I'm going to try and run down the corridor dodging the ...

DM: Do you have the dodge feat?

Player: No, I just ...

DM: Well, since dodge is a mechanical game term 'm afraid you can't do that. Use "try to avoid being hit".

Player: But that's ...

DM: Oh, and one more thing. Stop describing your character as athletic. That's a feat as well.

Player: Well, my DEX score is ...

DM: Sorry, your not athletic. And stop telling the other players your character is attentive ,too. That's why we have the alertness feat.

At least GURPS (which is what I think WotC was trying to rip off with their Feats/Skills system) had a scaling point cost for abilities. A 1 point alertness ability (quirk) meant your character might get the information to disseminate to the other characters. A 100 point alertness ability meant you made Sherlock Holmes look like an oblivious incompetent. You could have a 0-point alertness for no mechanical advantage whatsoever. It just made me feel good to see things on my sheet that matched my concept. Even if it was just decorative adjectives.
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Post by wolfpunk »

I have never used feats in C&C and I would be reluctant to do so, because I think feats like power attack, combat expertise, rapid shot, cleave, whirlwind attack, etc can be done in narration.

If I were to allow feats I would only allow feats that can't be described in narration. For example, the Toughness feat, while probably under-powered I would allow as a choice because you can't easily describe having extra hit points.

Since I have switched to using three saves instead of six, I would allow the Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes feats.

I would also allow all of the feats that give a +2 bonus to two skills because even though I don't use skills, these are things that the characters often have to make Siege rolls for and so a +2 bonus is a good. I would also allow a character who has a +2 bonus on a skill from a feat to then take skill focus for that skill to gain an additional +3 bonus. It would be a great way to offset a skill being associated with a non-prime attribute.

If I ever required initiative rolls I would allow Improved Initiative.

I think that covers it for me.

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Post by drakahn99 »

wolfpunk wrote:
I have never used feats in C&C and I would be reluctant to do so, because I think feats like power attack, combat expertise, rapid shot, cleave, whirlwind attack, etc can be done in narration.

If I were to allow feats I would only allow feats that can't be described in narration. For example, the Toughness feat, while probably under-powered I would allow as a choice because you can't easily describe having extra hit points.

Since I have switched to using three saves instead of six, I would allow the Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes feats.

I would also allow all of the feats that give a +2 bonus to two skills because even though I don't use skills, these are things that the characters often have to make Siege rolls for and so a +2 bonus is a good. I would also allow a character who has a +2 bonus on a skill from a feat to then take skill focus for that skill to gain an additional +3 bonus. It would be a great way to offset a skill being associated with a non-prime attribute.

If I ever required initiative rolls I would allow Improved Initiative.

I think that covers it for me.

the feats i was refering to were the "class features" that they offer to classes in third edition". although i had thought i said that most of them im not reqining to have, just having them allows a player to skip making a siege check. many of the general ones im not allowing to purchase just some of them that would make more sense that soemone could train someone or they could learn intuitivly. as an alternative reward for doing something good or what not.

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Post by wolfpunk »

I apologize if my post came across badly, I certainly was not intending to criticize your idea. I must have misunderstood your desire to offer additional class abilities since you were referring to them as feats.

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Post by drakahn99 »

wolfpunk wrote:
I apologize if my post came across badly, I certainly was not intending to criticize your idea. I must have misunderstood your desire to offer additional class abilities since you were referring to them as feats.

no problem they refer to feats as both types of things, or atleast thats what i was thinking, and i may be wrong since its been about 3 years or so since i did any thing with d20 or d&d.

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Post by drakahn99 »

Harry Joy wrote:
Re: Psionics... It's been said here before, but Green Ronin's Psychic looks to be a good drop-fit for C&C. Psionics would be, well, a difficult conversion.

actualy for thoes who are interested here: http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/ you can find a psion class, i think it would be nice to get a central repository of all the net/player submited classes and conversions.

ill probably work on a couple other things using the psionics stuff from wizards if any one is interested, i can send them to somewhere or post them if they want what i came up with. atm ive prety much done the soul knife from the 3.5 psionics hand book from wizards/hasbro, although i havent looked closely at the balance of it compared to the current classes so it may be a little more powerful than the normal, with out some modifications

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Post by Beyondthebreach »

We use Feats in the C&C campaign I play in (we actually use Omote's list of C&C Feats). It'a no big deal and it provides for a little extra to look forward to as characters increase in level.

So, my 6th level Dwarf Cleric has Cleave, Die Hard and the Clerical Feat from the War Domain.

I always thought that Feats were the best idea to come out of 3rd edition . . . granted, now, I've never actually played 3E and I only had the 3 Core books . . . from what I understand things like Feats and Prestige classes got out of hand . . .

Anyway . . . a few Feats don't really mess with game balance and they are fun to use.

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Post by serleran »

A "feat" can be a good thing to force a player to spend XP on. Make them choose level ups or "extra abilities." ;)

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Post by CharlieRock »

Beyondthebreach wrote:
We use Feats in the C&C campaign I play in (we actually use Omote's list of C&C Feats). It'a no big deal and it provides for a little extra to look forward to as characters increase in level.

So, my 6th level Dwarf Cleric has Cleave, Die Hard and the Clerical Feat from the War Domain.

I always thought that Feats were the best idea to come out of 3rd edition . . . granted, now, I've never actually played 3E and I only had the 3 Core books . . . from what I understand things like Feats and Prestige classes got out of hand . . .

Anyway . . . a few Feats don't really mess with game balance and they are fun to use.

I played the mess out of D&D3. The problem with feats was more the mindset it placed players in, imo. They tended to look at the list as all the things they can't do instead of "extra" options. Nobody would try to disarm or grapple somebody unless they had the "Improved whatever" feats.
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Post by wolfpunk »

So if they use XP to purchase feats:

Do all feats cost the same amount of XP?

How often can a player purchase them?

Can purchasing a feat result in level loss?

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Post by bighara »

I have used a simplified feat system in C&C and it's worked fine. My players liked being able to customize their PCs a bit. The way I handled it was simple. All PCs start with one feat and get one feat every three levels. There are general feats anyone can take and class specific feats. The class feat lists are much shorter (1-2 feats per class, typically). Some feats have prerequisites, but most don't.
FEATS

General Feats:

Favored Weapon**: +1 bonus to attack rolls with a chosen weapon.

Weapon Focus**: +1 damage with chosen weapon.

Improved Initiative: +2 to initiative rolls.

Improved Strength*: Raise strength score by 1 point.

Improved Intelligence*: Raise intelligence score by 1 point.

Improved Wisdom*: Raise wisdom score by 1 point.

Improved Constitution*: Raise constitution score by 1 point.

Improved Dexterity*: Raise dexterity score by 1 point.

Improved Charisma*: Raise charisma score by 1 point.

Dodge: +1 AC (unless held or helpless).

Mighty Swing: Add 2X your strength bonus to damage when using a 2 handed weapon.

Weapon Finesse: Use dexterity in place of strength, in melee combat using a light weapon. (Rapier, or <EV 3).

Class Feats:

Fighter

Cleave: If a hit downs a foe, and there is another foe adjacent to him, make a 2nd attack roll at 2 to attempt to hit the 2nd target. Only a maximum of 2 targets can be hit this way per attack.

Ranger

Skill Focus*: Choose 1 skill (conceal, delay/neutralize poison, move silently, scale, traps, or survival) and gain a +2 bonus to any check with that skill.

Rogue

Skill Focus*: Choose 1 skill (climb, decipher script, hide, listen, move silently, open lock, pick-pocket, or traps) and gain a +2 bonus to any check with that skill.

Assassin

Skill Focus*: Choose 1 skill (case target, climb, disguise, hide, listen, move silently, poisons, or traps) and gain a +2 bonus to any check with that skill.

Barbarian:

Improved Combat Sense: Reduces back-attacks bonus to +1.

Improved Primal Fury*: Add +1 round to duration. Prereq: Primal Fury

Monk

Improved Dodge*: Gain an additional +1 to AC (as dodge) Prereq: Dodge

Improved Slow Fall: Falling damage is as if distance were -30 Prereq: Slow Fall

Wizard/Illusionist

Spell Focus*: Choose one spell and cast it as if you were 1 level higher

Bonus Spell*: Choose one spell off your current spell list (once chosen it may not be changed) and it may be cast for free 1/day.

Cleric

Improved Turn Undead: Turn undead as a cleric 1 level higher.

Combat Undead: Gain +1 to hit and damage when fighting undead

Spell Focus*: Choose 1 spell and cast it as if you were 1 level higher

Bonus Spell*: Choose one spell off your current spell list (once chosen it may not be changed) and it may be cast for free 1/day.

Druid

Naturalist: Gain a +2 to any Nature Lore checks.

Totem Healing: Player adds his charisma bonus to all healing when assuming a totem shape.

Bonus Spell*: Choose 1 spell from your current spell list and cast it once per day without it counting against your daily allotment.

Spell Focus*: Choose 1 spell and cast it as if you were 1 level higher

Knight

Improved Horsemanship*: +1 to all Horsemanship checks.

Enhanced Steed: Mount gains the knights CHA modifier in HP when the knight advances in level.

Paladin

Improved Lay on Hands: Heals 3 HP/level

Improved Turn Undead: Turn undead as if 1 level higher. Prereq: 3rd+ Level Paladin

Combat Undead: Gain a +1 to hit and damage verses undead foes

Bard

Skill Focus*: Choose 1 skill (Decipher Script, Exalt, or Legend Lore) and gain a +2 bonus to any check with that skill.


* Can be taken more than once.

**Can be taken only once per weapon.
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Post by Treebore »

Good material. You've just helped me decide how I am going to finish writing up my orders and guilds. Thanks BigH.
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Post by adaen »

bighara wrote:
I have used a simplified feat system in C&C and it's worked fine.....i]

Very nice list.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Thanks for sharing!

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Post by drakahn99 »

wolfpunk wrote:
So if they use XP to purchase feats:

Do all feats cost the same amount of XP?

How often can a player purchase them?

Can purchasing a feat result in level loss?

no not all feats cost the same, they could purchase them when they have enough to putchase the desired feat AND find a mentor willing to teach them. no they cannot loose a level because it would work similar to multiclassing the player will set aside a percentage of xp that they gain (up to 25%) that goes to a pool that they can use to purchase feats.

i need to go through the list and come up with costs and if needbe convert them to the c&c system.

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Tweaking the Game Fantastik

Post by adaen »

I definitely like the "pool of points" idea for what I'll term "add-on abilities". The old Atlantis Game from Bard Games (~1983, The Atlantean Trilogy: The Arcanum, The Lexicon, and The Bestiary) used this to add binary skills/special abilities/specialties (not unlike Feats really). You saved up experience points and then you bought them.

The simplicity of C&C really shines in terms of adding a few things here or there. I'm curious as to how many people have revamped/overhauled the system *extensively*....and what that entailed.

Best,

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Re: Tweaking the Game Fantastik

Post by Treebore »

adaen wrote:
I definitely like the "pool of points" idea for what I'll term "add-on abilities". The old Atlantis Game from Bard Games (~1983, The Atlantean Trilogy: The Arcanum, The Lexicon, and The Bestiary) used this to add binary skills/special abilities/specialties (not unlike Feats really). You saved up experience points and then you bought them.

The simplicity of C&C really shines in terms of adding a few things here or there. I'm curious as to how many people have revamped/overhauled the system *extensively*....and what that entailed.

Best,

~AoB

I don't know what you mean by "extensive", but there are a lot of house rules linked through cncplayer.net, if its still a maintained site. Plus there is mine, including the Orders I have been writing up and posting in the Rules forum.

I can PM you my current house rules, which are still a work in progress. Heck, probably always will be, I love tweaking rules, etc...

Other than the Orders I have slowed down on adding new rules though. Plus BigH has inspired me to rewrite the Orders anyways, and gave me the ideas I needed to finsih writing the others.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Tweaking the Game Fantastik

Post by gideon_thorne »

This is about as 'extensive' as I've gone as far as adding too the base skills check idea.

One can develop a number of 'background' abilities based on a given class that would, increase with level, all based on an attribute roll. Which, by the book, does increase with level.

For example, since folks like picking on fighters so much, and their theoretical lack of abilities, here's a case in point.

A characters base roll to accomplish something is at a base 18 (think of it as an armour class one has to beat). A prime attribute gives a +6 bonus to that roll. This, coupled with the attribute modifier and a characters level gives a baseline for a variety of abstractly defined skills a fighter can have.

Take for an example a fighter who's put their Prime scores in Intelligence and Charisma. Following this supposition this fighter has grown up in an environment that enables familiarity with a military background.

Several broad areas of skill I can think off right off the bat for this fighter, based on intelligence and charisma (The primes of which represent training in said areas) would be: Engneering (the ability to design and oversee the construction of all manner of military based equipment, this can also be extrapolated to include some sort of artistic ability. Drawing, rendering, sculpture modeling and so forth.) (int) Logistics (int), Siege warfare (sapping and so forth) (int) Leadership (cha), military protocol(name ranks and hierarchy) (cha), Intimidation (cha)

In short, a number of abilities for an aspiring officer or, at basic, a mercenary sergeant type.

All of which one could, with the cooperation of the game master, legitimately add level too.

The same can be done for all the classes simply by logically assuming skills based on a combination of background and class baseline.

A fighter with Con and Dex Prime might have grown up with a blacksmith and therein have a number of manual dexterity craft and endurance skills to go along with it. Just another example.

Food for thought anyhow.
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Post by Aladar »

bighara,

Your simplified feat system is a very good idea.

If you don't mind, I think I will steal this for my C&C game as well. My kids were wanting to add a few extra specialties to their characters as they progress and this feat list of yours fits the bill perfectly.
Thanks.
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Post by bighara »

Alwyn wrote:
bighara,

Your simplified feat system is a very good idea.

If you don't mind, I think I will steal this for my C&C game as well. My kids were wanting to add a few extra specialties to their characters as they progress and this feat list of yours fits the bill perfectly.
Thanks.

Feel free
One thing I didn't include (because it isn't 100% relevant) is my house rule that a score can only be improved to a maximum of 20 + racial modifier. It would probably take a bit of playing for it to become an issue.
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