The C&C Fighter (Ultimate Thread)

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gideon_thorne
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Re: Why play a fighter?

Post by gideon_thorne »

Ultack wrote:
When I said the only skills the fighter as, I were referring to a lvl 5 fighter.

The example I posted above could apply at any level.
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Anyway it seem we will have to endure more of those situations because he is adamant on playing nothing else, for a long while. To let the DM decide on which stats a roll should be made is assuming he/she can make an educated judgment call. And that is the worst mistake an open ended system such as this can make. I played Champion for a long time, also open ended, but with the basics covered and that made the difference.

Comparing C&C to Champions is like comparing apples and oranges. Champions, at its basic, is far more detailed than C&c.

The C&C PHB already covers the basics though. The section on attribute checks does give examples on what stats are most appropriate for various general actions.

Contrariwise, a too detailed system curtails creativity. When every answer is spelled out as to how to do something, it leaves no room for someone who likes to take a different approach.

C&C was designed simple on purpose, so folks could add the complexity they desire. An approach that is far easier to deal with than having to rip the guts out of more complex systems because they are too rigid.
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Re: Why play a fighter?

Post by Treebore »

Ultack wrote:
Sorry wasn't clear it seem, -2 on SC, period. But to be rolled before each attempt of hitting a target.

And the bad ruling as you said is exactly the reason why I dislike a system with no clear rule on basic stuff like that. Because one as just to be stuck with a DM that cant think his/her way through such situation and you get screwed.

When I said the only skills the fighter as, I were referring to a lvl 5 fighter.

Anyway it seem we will have to endure more of those situations because he is adamant on playing nothing else, for a long while. To let the DM decide on which stats a roll should be made is assuming he/she can make an educated judgment call. And that is the worst mistake an open ended system such as this can make. I played Champion for a long time, also open ended, but with the basics covered and that made the difference.

Tell your DM to read my house rules document. He can PM me for it. Or you can and pass it on to him. After you read it.
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Re: Why play a fighter?

Post by gideon_thorne »

Or, even better, bring the game master here and let him talk out the why's and wherefores.
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Re: Why play a fighter?

Post by Treebore »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Or, even better, bring the game master here and let him talk out the why's and wherefores.

That would be best, for sure.
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The Highway Man

Post by The Highway Man »

Zebulon wrote:
You could simply give them Armor Specialization and improve Combat Dominance.
Armor Specialization: can sleep in armor, hindrances due to armor reduced by 1 pt, get +1 to AC at 6th level, and +2 to AC at 12th level when using armor.
Combat Dominance: not limited to d6 hd, applies to all 1HD creatures, and then at 12th level also appiles to 2HD creatures. That way, it's still a fighter, nothing really new or different, but he gets more edge.

Well just a 2 cents suggestion...

That's what I'd do, with Combat Dominance being effective on creatures of HD = Fighter Level - 4 (or -X more, depending on how it relates to monsters in M&T, -4 being a reference to d20's CR-4 basically which is the "mook CR", in practice - I don't remember if C&C followed this concept and I don't have my books with me). Something that would make CD equally useful as the Fighter rises in level. On its own, this ability makes the Fighter worthwhile, me thinks.

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Post by danbuter »

See the fighter on my website. I just replaced Combat Dominance with Cleave, and the class rocks.
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Post by The Highway Man »

danbuter wrote:
See the fighter on my website. I just replaced Combat Dominance with Cleave, and the class rocks.

Genius. Much simpler and straightforward. My thanks!

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Fiffergrund is correct

Post by Mac Golden »

Fiffergrund's post of June 10 is right on target. The beauty of the fighter is the simplicity of the class. If I had it to do over again, I would probably strip the class down even more, and, as Fiffergrund also mentioned, I would give incentive of some sort for a fighter to carry multiple weapons instead of giving incentive to specialize in one. This is something that is definitely on the table if and when C&C undergoes a revision.

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Re: Fiffergrund is correct

Post by Fiffergrund »

Mac Golden wrote:
Fiffergrund's post of June 10 is right on target. The beauty of the fighter is the simplicity of the class. If I had it to do over again, I would probably strip the class down even more, and, as Fiffergrund also mentioned, I would give incentive of some sort for a fighter to carry multiple weapons instead of giving incentive to specialize in one. This is something that is definitely on the table if and when C&C undergoes a revision.

Thanks, Mac. I was hoping I remembered things correctly.
Incidentally, Crusader #12 will have my altered fighter class. It's not stripped down - if anything it's slightly more complex - but it does address the multiple weapon issue.
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Post by ChaosImp »

Hello

Stupid question time: If a 10th level fighter is using two weapon attack, does he get an extra attack for each weapon or just an extra attack for his main weapon.

Cheers

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Turanil

Post by Turanil »

ChaosImp wrote:
If a 10th level fighter is using two weapon attack, does he get an extra attack for each weapon or just an extra attack for his main weapon.

My guess is that the fighter gets 1 (one) additional attack at 10th level; whether he is using 1 or 2 weapons, or his feet or whatever.
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Post by Mac Golden »

one extra attack. i would guess main weapon, but i guess it could be secondary if chosen for some reason

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Post by ChaosImp »

Cheers, thanks for the reply.

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Post by Frost »

I just had a "well dah?" moment. I somehow missed the Extra Attack ability of the fighter. I now see what is going on with this class.

That is all.
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Post by Jacopo Mott »

Fiffergrund wrote:
I recommend the addition of houserules that promote the theme of the fighter being the ultimate combatant, without adding new powers or discrete abilities. My house rules encourage fighters to carry multiple weapons of different types, instead of automatically specializing, for example. If you want to make a change, consider breaking the mold without adding "powers." Adding new "abilities" tends to overlook the fact that the SIEGE engine can support just about anything if applied correctly.

I hope this helps. If you want more info, this is the place to ask!

Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but as a new CK I am compiling my house rules list and have been reading everything I can get my hands on.

Fiffergrund, I was really intrigued by what rules you might use to encourage the fighter to use/specialize in multiple weapons. I have seen nothing to date about that and I think that is a brilliant idea that would add a lot of flavor to the game and never force a CK to drop in a specific weapon for a specialized fighter to eventually capture for their use.

Anything you or anyone else is willing to share on this subject would be appreciated.

-Jacopo

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Post by serleran »

I do this: At every 4th level (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) the fighter gains a new weapon specialization, or he can improve an existing one. If the fighter improves an existing, he gains a +1 damage when wielding that weapon type. If it has been improved 4 times, the fighter gains an extra attack with it.
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Re: Fiffergrund is correct

Post by Lombardio »

Fiffergrund wrote:
Incidentally, Crusader #12 will have my altered fighter class. It's not stripped down - if anything it's slightly more complex - but it does address the multiple weapon issue.

Just a quick question, the blurb for issue 12 doesn't mention this new class, was it in fact in issue 12, or did it end up in a different one? I'd like to know before i buy.

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Post by Fiffergrund »

We've exchanged a few PMs, but for the benefit of anyone else who may be curious -

The revised fighter is in Hammer & Anvil, Crusader issue #12.

In short, one of the fighter's "specialization" options is that of Tactician, which helps the fighter to know precisely what weapon is appropriate at the correct time. I also added a weapon v. armor type table that encourages diversification of weaponry.
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Post by E-RPM SOFT.COM »

Folks, this has been very helpful, Fiffergrund's post in particular. I do plan to run C&C "as is" first to see how things play out. I figured there was a reason the fighter was designed the way he was.

Again, thanks.

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Post by anonymous »

I'm going to remove the weapon specialization feature of the fighter entirely, I think it just forces me into dropping the same type of weapons over and over for the fighter so he can use what he is specialized in. What would be good to replace that ability with?

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Post by csperkins1970 »

Flexor the Mighty! wrote:
I'm going to remove the weapon specialization feature of the fighter entirely, I think it just forces me into dropping the same type of weapons over and over for the fighter so he can use what he is specialized in. What would be good to replace that ability with?

Weapon-class specialization!
Actually that might work. At level 1 the fighter would gain a +1 to hit and damage with all weapons in one of the following weapon classes:
Axes: throwing axe, hand axe, bearded axe, battle axe, great axe, bardiche (which is more of a great axe than a polearm)
Hammers & Picks: throwing hammer, maul, warhammer, footman's pick, horseman's pick
Pole Arms: longspear, spear, halberd, partisan, sleeve tangler, etc.
Slashing blades: falchion, scimitar, longsword, broadsword, bastard sword, greatsword
Thrusting blades: dagger, shortsword, dirk, knife, rapier, epee
Bows: longbow, shortbow, composite longbow, composite shortbow, diakyu
Crossbows: light crossbow, heavy crossbow, hand crossbow, repeating crossbow
Maces: footman's mace, horsemans' mace, morningstar, tetsubo
Thrown weapons: Throwing dagger, throwing axe, throwing hammer, bola, sling, dart

At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, etc another weapon class is chosen. If you choose the same weapon class more than once, your bonuses with weapons in that class improve by 1. The maximum bonus with any weapon class is +3.
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Post by jaguar451 »

I think I like the weapon-class specialization....

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Post by gideon_thorne »

jaguar451 wrote:
I think I like the weapon-class specialization....

Ya, they used it a lot in 2e. Which is going to give the old schoolers a blasphemy attack.
They were called 'weapon groups' and one could specialise in a given group. Blades, bows, thrown weapons, ect.
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Post by csperkins1970 »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Ya, they used it a lot in 2e. Which is going to give the old schoolers a blasphemy attack.
They were called 'weapon groups' and one could specialise in a given group. Blades, bows, thrown weapons, ect.

I thought the idea seemed familiar as I was typing it...
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Post by Omote »

gideon_thorne wrote:
...a blasphemy attack.

Haha. I'm going to have to use that term. Thanks GT.

As for the weapon groups, I always like that idea from the later 2E days. Not only did it make a lot of sense, players seemed to like it a lot better being specialized with more then just a long sword or the like.

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Barbarians

Post by Arazmus »

Has anyone seen the "re-worked" barbarian, with all the fighter talk it seems the barbarian (Conan, Fafhrd etc all great fighters) got short-shrift. The illusionist was an easy fix, just add some more spells. But it seems the poor barbarian lacks some of the abilities he should have: e.g. calling a horde at higher levels, some outdoorsman type special abilities etc.

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Bards

Post by Arazmus »

And is it just me or are bards about as useless as teats on a bull? It just seems like a fighter with one less BtH, no weapon specialization and some of the knight's abilities.

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Re: Barbarians

Post by csperkins1970 »

Arazmus wrote:
Has anyone seen the "re-worked" barbarian, with all the fighter talk it seems the barbarian (Conan, Fafhrd etc all great fighters) got short-shrift. The illusionist was an easy fix, just add some more spells. But it seems the poor barbarian lacks some of the abilities he should have: e.g. calling a horde at higher levels, some outdoorsman type special abilities etc.

My houseruled barbarian has the abilities you mentioned... plus has a beefed up version of rage.

For the bard I went with the classic, druidic-trained, bard with spells and performance-based abilities. It's abilities are more like those of the 3rd edition bard (fused with AD&D bard, as presented in Dragon magazine #56).
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Re: Bards

Post by gideon_thorne »

Arazmus wrote:
And is it just me or are bards about as useless as teats on a bull? It just seems like a fighter with one less BtH, no weapon specialization and some of the knight's abilities.

Except when you need a character who can smooth the way in situations that don't always call for the 'beat it with a stick' method.

Like the illusionist, its a class that calls for subtlety and a different way of thinking.
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Re: Barbarians

Post by gideon_thorne »

Arazmus wrote:
Has anyone seen the "re-worked" barbarian, with all the fighter talk it seems the barbarian (Conan, Fafhrd etc all great fighters) got short-shrift. The illusionist was an easy fix, just add some more spells. But it seems the poor barbarian lacks some of the abilities he should have: e.g. calling a horde at higher levels, some outdoorsman type special abilities etc.

The new barbarian has all this.
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