New to C&C

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Eris
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New to C&C

Post by Eris »

I'm new to C&C. In the distant past I played and DM'ed White Box D&D (yeah, I'm that old), but stopped about 1980 and didn't do D&D again until 3e came out. Since then, I've DM'ed a 3rd edition game (well, d20 mechanic with most rules ignored and handled on the fly) online. I've found 3e to be *way* too rules heavy and fiddly for me, though. I bought the 4e rules (maybe they'll grow on me, but for now...meh!), and although there are some interesting bits, I just don't think it feels like D&D to me. So now I'm looking *hard* at C&C.

I bought the "Player's Handbook" and "Monsters and Treasures" back in 2005, but haven't done more than read them through until now. Now, I'm seriously looking at running a game with C&C so as I said, I'm looking at it hard.

C&C looks like it is somewhere in between OD&D and 3e, it seems to have the "feel" I'm looking for, and I think it would work a lot better for me than 4e, however, I appear to be missing some things in the Player's Handbook and just plain feel lost about others. So, I have a few questions I'd like to put before the assembled community.

1. Starting Spells in a Wizard's Spellbook. After reading and rereading the Player's Handbook I still can't find how many spells a Wizard has in his spellbook when he is starting out. I found that you add 1 each time you level up and you can add them by writing them into the spellbook, but I can't find how many are in there when you are starting out. I could "houserule" something easily enough, but I'd like to know where the official rule is located...if it is there.

2. Speaking of spells, I've got a couple of houserules that I plan to use that I'd like advice on.

First, I'm going to let a Wizard or Cleric cast 0th Level spells "At Will" to use a 4e'ism. There don't seem to be any effects at 0th Level that would unbalance things.

Second, I'm shifting the "Spells Per Day" over by one column (instead of 4 at 0'th and 2 at 1'st, I'm changing that to unlimted at 0'th, 4 at 1'st, and 2 at 2'nd) *and* saying the spells can be *any* that are in his spellbook rather than one specifically prepared. IOW's if you can cast 4 1st level spells per day, then you can cast *any* 4 1st level spells that are written in your spellbook.

I know this will make the Wizard more powerful, and my question is do you think this is over the top too powerful, or not?

3. Populating Dungeons and Setting up Encounters.

Let's say I want to design a 3 level dungeon: 1st, 2nd and 3rd for a party of 3 to 5 characters. I remember from OD&D that I'd put 1HD monsters in the 1st level, 2HD monsters in the 2nd level and 3HD monsters in the 3rd level (+- a level or two for easier or harder)...right?

Weren't there tables for this back in the old days? There don't seem to be anything about this in C&C's Player Handbook or M&T. Is there anything with more details, more information?

Next, of all the things I've seen in 4e, the one that appealed to me most was the idea of allocating X HP of monsters per number and level of PC's they are opposing. I can look at that table in there and then turn to the monsters and just pick out monsters to equal that number and I've got a pretty fair encounter. Why can't it be that easy in C&C?

Would something like this work?

I sum up the player's HP, and change that to a number of HD (something like total party HP divided by 3).

For a standard encounter, I pick a number of monsters of the appropriate levels so that the sum of their HD is about equal the PC party's HD. Easier or Harder encounters would be easy to do this way too...but...

Would this work?

Thanks in advance!

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Post by Lord Stinger »

Welcome to the forum. There are many people here who can help you with your questions.
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Post by serleran »

1) Arcane spellcasters (those requiring spellbooks) know 1 spell per spell slot available to them, including bonus spells (I forget if they start with all cantrips [0-level spells; if they do not, I suggest allowing it.]) This means if a character can cast 3 1st level spells, they know 3 1st level spells - but can memorize/prepare any combination of 3 (2 of 1, 1 of each, or all 3 of the same, for example.) Each level, they add a spell of a level they can cast and can also get more spells from scrolls.

2) Spontaneous casting for wizards and illusionists is unfair - their only weakness is the fact they have to have the right spell for the right circumstance.

3) There is no formula for it - use whatever seems good for your group. Some can handle more, others can't. The book Engineering Dungeons has some stuff, but not a formula. We do not encourage such things.

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Post by Omote »

1.) 1st level wizards start with a number of spells in their spellbook equal to the number of spells they can cast at first level (example 4 zero-level spells and 2 ist-level spells, assuming the wizard has a zero INT mod.)

2.) Giving the wizard the ability to cast more spells per day is quite a boost in the power level. Considering the sleep spell by itself, I wizardcating lots of these spells would be devistating. There is also not many damage caps for spells based on level, so a higher level wiz would really bring the hurt with even more spells.

3.) As for setting up encounters based on dungeon level and difficulty, there is no such thing yet spelled out in C&C per se. The old 1E DMG is still quite useful in this regard. the Castle Keeper's Guide (which is not yet released) might have some of this information your require.

On a side note, if you have the chance or the desire, pick up the most recent printing of the PHB and the M&T. These books are better presented, incorporate some errata, give more info on your question #1, and are just generally mo' betta then the 2005 editions.

Have fun and Crusade on!

-O
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Post by Buttmonkey »

I think only putting 1 HD monsters in the first level of a dungeon is a little too rigid. A party of 6 1st level characters should be able to tackle one or two 3 hit dice monsters. There's no need to make them go down two flights of stairs before springing the 3 HD baddies on them. The trick is to make sure the PCs are facing encounters that challenge, but don't overwhelm them. Thus, you wouldn't want to send a party of 4 1st level PCs up against 5 4-hit-dice monsters.
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Re: New to C&C

Post by gideon_thorne »

The over all challenge level, on average, can equal the party level. What this means is that all the challenges in a given scenario ought to average out to the level of a party of 1st level PCs. So you can have 2 and 3 HD critters and CL 2-3 level challenges in the set scenario, as long as there are some very easy challenges to offset them.

Smart characters learn to run away from overwhelming odds. Or they dont last very long.
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Post by Aladar »

Eris,

Well met and welcome to the crusade.

I have also allowed spell casters to cast their prepared 0-Level spells as a spell-like ability once per round as long as they are not casting any other spells that round. So what ever 0-Level spells they have prepared for the day, can be cast as needed throughout the day.

I have not found this extra gain as overpowering to my game. All the rest of the 1st level and above spells are memorized and cast per day as normal.

I have found that this little nudge makes the spell casters (especially wizards & illusionists) more useful at lower levels without unbalancing the game.
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Post by Aramis »

re: dungeon making. If you still have an old copy of the 1e DMs Guide, you will find it very useful. If not, you can probably find one at a local used bookstore.

It will also help answer many further questions you may have about running a C&C game (like how some spells work, travel, campaign making, etc.). The most useful book in RPG history.

re: wizards cast 0 level at will. This will be more powerful than you think. I believe the description of detect magic allows it to penetrate through walls etc. (don't have my books in front of me). If so, good luck hiding magical items from your players
re: ratcheting up spell casters spells per level. This also will be a large power boost. Precisely to the one class that does not need a power boost, especially at later levels.

You are definitely showing the right appoach to C&C. Houserule away, that's one of the beauties of the system. Another is it allows for a return to a more Sword and Sorcery flavour, as you mentioned. God bless those Trolls.
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Post by serleran »

[shameless plug]

Buy Engineering Dungeons.

[/end shameless plug]

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Post by Hrothgar Rannulfr »

Aramis wrote:
If you still have an old copy of the 1e DMs Guide, you will find it very useful. If not, you can probably find one at a local used bookstore.

It will also help answer many further questions you may have about running a C&C game (like how some spells work, travel, campaign making, etc.). The most useful book in RPG history.

I definitely agree! I'm new to the Crusade, myself. But, I've used the 1E Dungeon Master's Guide in every edition of DnD that I've played. Sometimes for rules, sometimes for reference. Or, both.

I've seen them go fairly cheap on Ebay, too. I still have mine from 1984.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

Howdy and welcome to the Crusades.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyment out of the simple yet elegant system that C&C provides.

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Post by Trandahl »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Howdy and welcome to the Crusades.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyment out of the simple yet elegant system that C&C provides.

I think I will too !

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Post by Omote »

Make sure if you order from the Troll Lords direct, they give a significant discount to members of the armed forces. Check on the Trolllord home page and click on Troop Support for all the details.

Welcome to the Crusade!

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Post by GameOgre »

Welcome aboard! I hope you find C&C as awsome as I do! Good luck with your deployment! Remember to pack a extra set of dice! Nothing worse than being out in the field and diceless. Paper chits just dont do it!
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Post by Eisenmann »

Welcome to the crusade and thank you for doin' what you're doin'.

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Post by slimykuotoan »

C&C is awesome! Welcome aboard!
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Welcome to the Crusade! Thank you for your service, sir!

C&C is an awesome system. As DD said, its simple, yet elegant, system captures the greatness of the "older editions" and the style and feel of those systems. I've really enjoyed my time with Castles & Crusades - it covers so much ground, allows me to easily adjust the game to cover things it doesn't cover, and allows me to use virtually all my 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D material with ease.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

C&C rules. Good choice, sir, and thank you for your service.
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Post by Trandahl »

Wow thanks everyone for your support. Im obviously a bit stressed at the moment at leaving my wife and kids and game group and it helps to feel the support of you guys. And its also great that this company offers soldiers a discount on orders. I'll definitely be ordering the personalized player's guide and Monsters and treasures asap. For people that have ordered from TLG before how quickly are orders usually recieved? I want to make sure I would get my books before i fly on the 12th of March. Im very excited about this system!

Oh and Dice are a restricted item in the country Im deploying to so Im not sure how much playing will necessarily go on over there. It will probably be mainly just me crafting an immersive setting and memorizing every word in the books .

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Trandahl wrote:
Wow thanks everyone for your support. Im obviously a bit stressed at the moment at leaving my wife and kids and game group and it helps to feel the support of you guys. And its also great that this company offers soldiers a discount on orders. I'll definitely be ordering the personalized player's guide and Monsters and treasures asap. For people that have ordered from TLG before how quickly are orders usually recieved? I want to make sure I would get my books before i fly on the 12th of March. Im very excited about this system!

Oh and Dice are a restricted item in the country Im deploying to so Im not sure how much playing will necessarily go on over there. It will probably be mainly just me crafting an immersive setting and memorizing every word in the books .

The troll lords can ship to military APO addresses. So if you need anything out there just give Steve a buzz. There are C&C players out in the sandbox though. It just depends on where your going.
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Post by serleran »

Glad to see another has joined the Crusade, on two fronts, as it were, in the minds of some, anyway. Welcome. Enjoy, and stay away from stray fire... especially that friendly stuff. Just because it wants to hug you doesn't mean it wants to be your best buddy...
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Post by GameOgre »

Quote:
Oh and Dice are a restricted item in the country Im deploying to so Im not sure how much playing will necessarily go on over there. It will probably be mainly just me crafting an immersive setting and memorizing every word in the books .

Hmm ok then your stuck with paper chits you get ued to them but dang ....those die are magic. Some of the guys in another Unit took a bar of soap and carved dice out of it (but that may have been a tall tale as I never saw any Soap Dice.

I'm sure you will find time/people to play with. I know that back when I was active we had loads of time with not a whole lot of choices on how to spend it. In fact I had more than enough players and the issue was enough free time away from the table to create advenures!
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Get tylenol wet, mash them together and cube 'em. At some pips with a pen and viola! Dice. Well, 6 siders anyways.

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Post by Treebore »

You can play without dice, just takes a bit of trust.

CK: "Pick a number between 1 and 20."

Player: "OK, I pick a 14."

CK: "I had picked a 18, so 18+14=32, subtract 20, you get a 12, what are your modifiers to hit?"

You can do this for every dice roll. It actually goes about as fast as actual dice rolling goes, and is about as random.

We did this whenever we gamed on long road trips.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Treebore wrote:
You can play without dice, just takes a bit of trust.

CK: "Pick a number between 1 and 20."

Player: "OK, I pick a 14."

CK: "I had picked a 18, so 18+14=32, subtract 20, you get a 12, what are your modifiers to hit?"

You can do this for every dice roll. It actually goes about as fast as actual dice rolling goes, and is about as random.

We did this whenever we gamed on long road trips.

I suppose trust would be key but if the CK is of a particular sort and the player is of a particular sort, it might play out like this:

CK: "Pick a number between 1 and 20."

Player: "OK, I pick a 20."

CK: "I had picked a 1, so 20+1=21, subtract 20, you get a 1, what are your modifiers to hit?"

Seriously though... simple rock, paper, scissors with best out of 3 or 5 with an edge given to the player if need be (and by edge I mean they already get 1 or 2 out of 5).

I think there have been some diceless methods introduced over the years though and the net might be a good resource.

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Post by nikkigurlie89 »

I find the playing without dice idea ingenious! and in all aspects a bit silly. Which is probably why i find it funny. The rock paper scissors thing could work too.

Its probably still just as easy to stick with dice tho

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Post by Troll Lord »

Trandhal,

We try to offer as much support as we can to the military, both those stateside, stationed in overseas posts such as Germany, and those in theater. Its been a hard fight for many years and any and everyone who enlists or re-enlists knows what they are up against. We applaud you and your families (as it can be as tough on them as you) for your courage and dedication.

Give us a shout at 501-680-6597 or email me direct at troll@trolllord.com. We offer a 50% discount for folks in the service, but those going to Iraq or Afghanistan don' t pay us a dime. We'll hook you up. I'll need some basic info, but just give us a shout.

Thank you for the service. We wish you all the luck and let the family know they are not far from our thoughts.

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Post by serleran »

It would be easy to play without dice. There are several ways of doing it. One simple method is to provide a pool of points, say, 50 / encounter. Anytime a roll is needed, you dump points from your pool into it -- the Castle Keeper can expend points for the bad guys, who have far fewer points, say, 20, to counter. More points than possible for the action cannot be expended -- that is, you cannot spend 15 points on damage if the best you could have rolled is a 6. If no points are spent, assume an average "roll" for the die result -- points spent against still count to reduce the result, but minimums are always guaranteed.

An example --

Bubba the Fighter is badly wounded and struggling against a killer kobold armed with a deadly bearded axe. He decides to use 20 of his remaining points to guarantee a hit. The kobold opts to defend a little more, knowing that if he gets hit, its over and victory is sooo close... so, he spends 9. Adding Bubba's modifiers to the 20, he has a 26 total. The kobold reduces that by 9 to a 17, which is still good enough. Bubba then spends 5 more points to deal damage, and the kobold flops over. Yay Bubba!

Later, Bubba is swarmed by a magic missile from a kobold sorcerer. The kobold decides he doesn't want to spend any points, reserving them for defense or saves, and deals average damage. d4+1 (x3) ends in 10 damage on average which really hurts Bubba... but, he decided he would expend 5 points, which would reduce it to 5, but the minimum is 6, so he spends only the 4, and takes 6. Then, Bubba charges... hope he has more points left...

Or, any of a lot of other ways.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Troll Lord wrote:
We offer a 50% discount for folks in the service, but those going to Iraq or Afghanistan don' t pay us a dime. We'll hook you up.

This is an aside, but see? Stuff like this goes a long way with me and speaks volumes on why I will be a TLG customer for life. Good ol' honesty and holding to your principles in business.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
This is an aside, but see? Stuff like this goes a long way with me and speaks volumes on why I will be a TLG customer for life. Good ol' honesty and holding to your principles in business.

Agreed.
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