Paladin Rarity

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DocEldritch
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Paladin Rarity

Post by DocEldritch »

Something I noticed recently (well, more something I actually thought of due to a conversation on it), was that in C&C, as in 3.X and later versions of DnD, paladins are FAR more common than in earlier editions, where the stat requirements made them quite a bit rarer.

While not a problem to me, I have heard it mentioned by folks interested in playing, that one of the things they liked about C&C and other retro-clone style games, was that some classes were rarer than others, due to it being harder to qualify for them.

So I was wondering, how "bad" do you think it would be to require paladins to have 2 Primes? Say, Charisma and one other, probably Strength or Constitution. It would still allow folks how want to play a paladin to do so, while making them slightly rarer (it is more of a choice), and not being as rare and random as the old "Need X stats" method.

This is not something I am seriously thinking of using (making non LG versions of the paladin is higher on my list), though it is an idea, probably for a game world where paladins are much rarer (Just finished re-reading the Deed of Paksanarion series, which has some great stuff on paladins in it, as well as how rare they are (something like 18 in the one church, total)).

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Post by serleran »

I do not make them rare. Instead, I invoke a cap. A paladin, if I allow them at all, which is not that often (I don't like the class concept at all), may obtain 9th level + Charisma modifier. Therefore, only a Paladin with an 18 Cha can ever become 12th level; one with a 3 Charisma can be played but will only advance to 6th level, tops.

Mandating two Primes does not really make them any more rare-- Strength and Constitution are both natural fits for the class, as would Wisdom. It does slightly reinforce the process of choice, but a player who wanted to play one would play one anyway... and probably with the Primes they "have" to take.

So, adding restrictions is the natural choice to truly rarefy them, such as Human Only, or must have Stat of X (and Stat of Y and Stat of Z, etc, etc) though this then starts to pull away from the "always easier to say yes" approach that C&C seems to provide. You could make something like "roll 1d20 -- if you score lower than your Charisma score, you may be a paladin" which would help somewhat, but the high-scoring players would have little difficulty in picking the class.

Probably the easiest way to make them rare is to say "one per party" and / or "no." Instead of a game-wise method, just control when a paladin can be played... make the player come up with a reason for it, and not just "because I like the class."

Just some random thoughts, not intended as anything but.
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Post by Kaiser_Kris »

I would make someone present a solid case for why they wanted to play a paladin, rather than try and impose a lot of mechanics. In the campaign I'm doing right now, Paladins proper are a 'prestige' class of sorts that can be attained at 5th level if you meet certain qualifications and can be invested by the Order, formally.

You might also want a would-be Paladin character to, perhaps, write up a code of personal conduct, one that is appropriately restrictive, depending on the god in question. And then enforce it. While 'falling' is an extreme penalty, there can also be lesser rebukes from a god. Someone could lose their Paladin abilities for a day, for example.

Meeting a single Paladin, anywhere, is a huge deal. The Dwarven fighter/cleric in my party is practically jumping for joy because he got told that the Order has its 'eye upon him'. Which ... well, he should probably watch that. *evil grin*

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Post by Sir Ironside »

I'm on the same page as KK. It isn't the mechanics that make Paladins rare or common, it is the world you build.

I personally like Paladins to be rare in my games. Still no problem a player taking the Paladin as a character the world I build just makes it so that guy is one of the few. It also doesn't make the Paladin a superstar, sure the common folk would be impressed if they knew he was. Major NPC would be less impressed and not everyone would find the Paladin a good thing, maybe even hate him and his deity.

So, there is balance and his character doesn't out shine the rest of the group.
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Post by Christina Stiles »

In my many, many years of gaming, I've never had a player who even wanted to play a paladin. My players always saw the alignment and code of conduct as too restrictive. I, on the other hand, did play one for five years or so in my brother's campaign. I found those things challenges, and very much enjoyed playing within the confines of the class.

At any rate, this just hasn't come up for me. I'm on the "present a case to play one" side of the thoughts presented here, though.
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Aneoth of Ironwood
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Post by Aneoth of Ironwood »

I think of Paladins as an elite fighter with special abilities who always fights for good and (almost always) at the behest of his order and they get all powers directly from a Deity (much like a Cleric).

(Heal.. a little, Aura of Good, Protection from Evil, detect Evil, they can turn some undead at higher levels).

A Paladin PC is a former warrior who has EARNED the right to be called a Paladin.

As stated above, in my games Paladins would be a Prestige Class.

(Not becoming a multi-class, more like a change of Class with some low-level abilities of a former class see below)

And I also agree that they should be quite rare.

Only a very few of the chosen can be Paladins and they are not just made on the spur of the moment at first level either, the class must be earned through trial of combat, and through good deeds done, so that a fighter (any fighter type, including Knights/Rangers... even Barbarians and in some rare cases, Monks) could be accepted into the order and by the Deity that that order worships.

Almost ALL Paladins belong to an order of Paladins. (see exceptions below)

High-ranking Paladins select candidates and at first a candidate for the order is not told they have been selected for possible inclusion into the order.

Heroic deeds are not just known locally; at some point the PC becomes well known as a hero far and wide.

A Paladin order eventually knows of the hero by those deeds.

Once a possible candidate is selected, a Paladin of the order is chosen by the Orders Leaders to go under cover to watch over the candidate.

Sometimes by joining his/her adventuring group as a normal fighter, or (if needed) as a low level cleric (as an NPC hireling or an NPC that joins the group through some excuse of the CKs choosing).

Once the under cover Paladin is certain that the candidate is worthy (That could take more than just one adventure) then the candidate is told of his choice to join the order and it is a choice to be made only by the candidate.

If the candidate is judged un-worthy, then they can never again be a candidate for that specific order and would more than likely never even know that he/she had been a candidate in the first place.

Once a Candidate is accepted to join, the PC is instructed to report to the Orders main operations base for further training.

The Paladin that was reviewing the candidate will ALWAYS escort the candidate to the orders base... ALONE.

That training will take from 3-5 years.

(Effectively removing that PC from any action for that setting)

At the conclusion of training the Candidate has either passed, or failed.

If they failed, then they are once again a normal PC, and if they passed they become Paladins with all of the abilities and limitations of that Prestige Class.

A PC that becomes a Paladin retains all of the abilities of that former class.

IE. A Ranger that becomes a Paladin does not forget how to fight two-handed, how to track, or hide, or move silently through the woods and a Monk does not forget hand-to-hand combat moves.

They cannot however, advance in that former class, unless (of course) they somehow loose Paladin status and they still could not do those things if wearing heavy Armour either, just as they could not before becoming a Paladin. (Other restrictions might apply at CKs discretion)

If a Paladin looses Paladin status (through a stack of small misdeeds, or a big one) they must immediately set out to correct those misdeeds.

If they do not do so, then they loose all Abilities as a Paladin and become what they formerly were. (Warriors, Ranger etc.).

If a Paladin permanently looses Paladin status, then they also loose ALL Levels/abilities/stats/additional hit points and other non-material things gained after they became a Paladin.

They essentially start over from the day they arrived at the Orders base.

However; it is possible that a Paladin could loose his/her abilities for a short time and recover them later (As stated by another post above) in which case those levels would not be lost.

However, they cannot gain ANY XPs during the redemption period.

A Quest is often required to regain lost Paladin Status and if so, NO Material Gain can be made during said quest and no experience either.

For instance; If the Paladin PC recovers a Holy Avenger during a redemption Quest, then it must be given to that Paladins Order for assignment to another Paladin (A worthy one).

The loss of Paladin status is HUGE to a true Paladin and should be CKed with much thought and discretion.

The only exceptions to an existing Paladin not being based at and answering directly to an existing Order is:

1) Ronin Paladins (No they do not have to be Japanese), and they are the least common of all Paladins. They are very uncommon (rarer than Anti-Paladins).

Paths to Ronin status:

a) Some Deity chose him/her for a higher (long-term) purpose.

b) Once belonged to an Order in the past, but if so, they no longer report to that order. Some are known to have belonged to Orders that were otherwise wiped out by some calamity, such as a war.

In some VERY rare occasions they might have been cast out of the order by the leadership, but somehow retained Paladin Status (At CKs choosing, and Deities approval).

IE. Leadership became angry with the PC Paladin for some reason and cast them out.

Order became unworthy of being an official order through some horrendous deeds by the leadership of that order.

PCs can be Ronin Paladins, but rarely so.

2) Ranging Paladins are Paladins that do belong to an order, but are ranging on long-term missions (IE. Acting as missionaries assigned by the Order to bring others to the fold) and seldom report to the orders home base. No they are not also Rangers (though they might have started PC life as Rangers before becoming Paladins) the word is used only as a descriptive term.

Almost ALL PC Paladins are Ranging Paladins.

3) Anti-Paladins see below. NO PC can be an Anti-Paladin.

Off topic a little: Anti-Paladin....

Those would also be quite rare, actually far more rare than the Paladin.

In almost all cases, it takes a fallen Paladin to make an Anti-Paladin in my games and those are exceedingly rare, but the ones that are there are terrible to behold and no low level PC even wants to be in the same region with one.

Minimum level for an Anti-Paladin is 5th and they have at some point been cursed as evil and cast out of the order by an Avatar of the Deity they had formerly worshipped through their evil deeds.

(IE. As a companies commander, or general; he/she ordered that a village filled with innocent women, children (and cute little kittens and puppies) be razed, burned to the ground, and all villagers murdered for some worldly reason, like money or political power).

They cannot be PCs and they are directly aligned with an Evil deity (of course).

Anti-Paladins cannot be redeemed through good deeds as the deeds they committed to become Anti-Paladins are so Evil that no redemption is possible, not even a seemingly selfless act.

However, as many Evils NPCs do, they might do seemingly good deeds as a means to an end.

IE. Disguise themselves as neutral or even good NPCs in order to lead a PC (or group of PCs) astray.

It is even possible (Though HIGHLY unlikely) that an Anti-Paladin could be a leader of and even control an Order of Paladins that otherwise worship a good Deity.

But not for long, as Evil is easily seen by a true Paladin for what it truly is and an Anti-Paladin is Evil to the core.

Just my 0.02 coppers worth.

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Post by clavis123 »

I am another CK who has never had any player run a Paladin PCs, in C&C, or any version of D&D. Maybe it's because my campaign worlds have always been pretty dark fantasy, and I've always had players that wanted run Assassins and Rogues/Thieves. Paladins would just be too disruptive of party harmony. Also, the established Lawful Good churches tend to be among the campaigns' antagonists. When Paladins are encountered in the game at all they tend to be severely deluded zealots who are being used as tools by corrupt religious authorities.
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Post by James M. Ward »

I would take it in another direction. There would only be one Paladin per god in the area and those Paladins would often be pitted against each other in quests to acquire things for their deity.

Elizebeth Moon did a wonderful set of three novels about a female paladin.

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Post by Lurker »

I'm one of those guys that love to play a paladin but also, I have rarely seen someone else play one. That being said, I don't think the world should be full of them. If your going to be the "cream of the crop" then there shouldn't be an army made up of a thousand paladins running around the world nor should there be one in every village doing good deeds and being annoyingly goody to shoes.

Aneoth, as someone that likes to play a paladin I'm not sure I'd like the way you do it. I'd be frothing at the mouth after a few levels to get my character into the order. Especially if I started the game wanting to play one. However I do like the idea of the character being observed and judged by the order before being allowed to join.

After thinking about it, I'd say there should be a middle road. Have the character ether make up a great background story as to why he was a paladin in a specific order from the start, start as a paladin that is blessed by the gods but needs to earn membership into an order before progressing past level x (id say 4-6ish) or play a different class for a few levels while being observed then be blessed by the gods after level 2-4ish.

I do like the idea of "ronin" paladin and even anti paladins running an order at times. It kind of fits my game world's view of there being good, evil then corrupting EVIL. I might have to add that into my home brew ...
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Post by Arazmus »

Yeah most people just don't want the hassle of playing a paladin. And sometimes the moral superiority thing can go to a players head. I've always allowed a little leway for more level-headed play for my paladins. Volumes have been written on this topic and it still comes up but playing it to impossible standards is no fun for anyone. You cannot have any evil PCs in the party if a paladin is present and even non-good ones are a bit dicey and likely to cause arguments (hopefully in character ones). I'd say they are the most difficult class to play. His opposite number, the assassin is no picnic either.
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Post by anglefish »

I've been luck to see people play paladins on an occasional basis. The one time I played one, it wasn't so much fun.
I felt that the GM wanted to use me as his plot device. If the party was lost, I'd suddenly get vision of where to go (the cool aspect of that deal), but if the GM wanted to have a reoccurring villian, he'd insist that I show mercy to the scumbag, no matter how vile he was.

The GM's grin told us that the villain would never "repent" and he'd be back.

It was a world where even captured goblins taunted paladins. "I am tired up! You have a stupid paladin here! You can't kill me! Ha. Ha. I'll never talk! "

Oddly enough, when I couldn't play for a night and my PC was "out" as well, the goblin prisoners kept mum, even until death.

It was a game where all the players felt like the GM was making chumps out of our PC's. Mine most of all. ... Of course we eventually left that game one-by-one.

I think the final blow was when a new player came in, played a few games and then revealed himself to be an evil spy that turned on us in the middle of an ambush. After that, he played his real PC.

Between games, the GM gloated about how we fell for it the evil PC's, cover story and all.

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Post by CKDad »

I've only played one paladin myself, back in the early 80s. Our rotating DMs did pick on him occasionally but it actually developed into a storyline - although the rest of the party didn't appreciate the way the githyanki kept coming after him (predating Neverwinter Nights 2 by about 20 years!)

(On one memorable occasion, the party confronted a drow high priestess and her entourage. We thought we might be outclassed but weren't sure, until the priestess flicked her fingers and turned Dirtral, then 6th or 7th level (evil clerics could turn paladins as good clerics turned undead) - without having to roll. The rest of the party laid down arms.)
In my kid's game, though, we have a knight and a paladin, which I think is a good thing - these are 12-13 year olds and I encourage (but don't require) them to think of their characters as heroes. the knightly classes are good for that so I welcome it; I've provided them with the Codes of Honor for their orders, and the kids play accordingly (which leads to humorous exchanges with the chaotic neutral rogue, which should be a familiar tale to many). There's room enough for the dark, angsty stuff later.
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Post by Aneoth of Ironwood »

Lurker wrote:
Aneoth, as someone that likes to play a paladin I'm not sure I'd like the way you do it. I'd be frothing at the mouth after a few levels to get my character into the order. Especially if I started the game wanting to play one. However I do like the idea of the character being observed and judged by the order before being allowed to join.

After thinking about it, I'd say there should be a middle road. Have the character ether make up a great background story as to why he was a paladin in a specific order from the start, start as a paladin that is blessed by the gods but needs to earn membership into an order before progressing past level x (id say 4-6ish) or play a different class for a few levels while being observed then be blessed by the gods after level 2-4ish.

I do like the idea of "ronin" paladin and even anti paladins running an order at times. It kind of fits my game world's view of there being good, evil then corrupting EVIL. I might have to add that into my home brew ...

A Ronin Paladin COULD be a low level PC and possibly even a starting PC.

But as I said, they (Ronin) are the most rare of Paladins.

The Players back-story would have to wow me to allow a Paladin Class as a starting PC.

And I agree with you in that most players who want to play a Paladin would be frothing by the time they reached mid level (as in 5th or so).

However, I do allow Paladins to be created (converted) at lower levels, just not (normally) at first level.

Once a beginning PC has earned a reputation for doing good deeds, the Order of Paladins in that area would likely hear of him/her and send out a watcher to get a closer look at that PC in action.

That could happen right after that new PCs very first adventure, and the watcher might be in place for the second.

Might even be the person hiring the PCs for that second adventure.

A PC fighter could easily convert to Paladin by 2nd or 3rd level in my games.... and with no argument from me.

It is an Anti-Paladin that must be at least 5th Level to be created and they are not PCs anyway.

I also agree that the Paladin (if played correctly) is truly a great PC, but also that the Paladin is EASY to either under play, or over play and he/she could also be ruined by an unimaginative Game Master.

BTW: IMO, Paladins do NOT have to allow every evil critter to remain alive either.

Killing an evil creature that is your enemy is not an evil act.

Killing a helpless creature while torturing it for information might be something that a Paladin would have great reservations about though.

Depends on the circumstances.

Paladins do not carry swords and wear armour for looks alone after all.

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Post by Go0gleplex »

I had two classes I'd play a majority of the time. A rogue...or a Paladin under 1st Ed D&D and 2nd. Had a kick with them personally. If done right a Paladin can be a great source of amusement for the party; like the time I went diving off of a cliff over a deep lake in full armor in an effort to save a distressed woman whom had just leapt off...only to find out on the way down she was a were-bat and I had been baited but good.

Of the above, I like several of the suggestions...think a couple might be a bit extreme. Not that anyone in my current groups has had any thought of playing one as yet. Maybe have the character as a paladin at first level but having to prove it to the public and "church" that he's the real deal before being accepted by the secular powers, as noted above, and acknowledged as a champion of the faith by the "church." The class has enough other restrictions that the player could doom themselves in play easily enough without needing additional ones IMO.
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Post by anglefish »

If I have to chose between getting something at higher levels, coming with a great backstory or have things "balanced out," I'll take the first two.

We had one GM who would give you stuff early, but would overcompensate on balancing things out. Out of the blue, my paladin's warhorse became a pegasus. cool.

Who suddenly forgot how to fight for the next two levels. not cool.

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Post by Lurker »

Quote:
A PC fighter could easily convert to Paladin by 2nd or 3rd level in my games.... and with no argument from me.

Oh I guess we are on the same sheet of music ... for some reason when I read your post I was picturing higher levels that that.
Quote:
BTW: IMO, Paladins do NOT have to allow every evil critter to remain alive either.

Killing an evil creature that is your enemy is not an evil act.

Killing a helpless creature while torturing it for information might be something that a Paladin would have great reservations about though.

Depends on the circumstances.

Paladins do not carry swords and wear armour for looks alone after all.

Amen to that. In my home brew world, knights are the law especially in more remote land, and the paladin it the ultimate judge jury and executioner. That being said if a "bad guy" does surrender, offer a reason why they should be spared, and then swear to mend (or at least attempt to) their ways then odds are the paladin will let them live ... once. Also, in my world swearing an oath and breaking it has dire consequences even to evil guys and monsters.
Quote:
It was a world where even captured goblins taunted paladins. "I am tired up! You have a stupid paladin here! You can't kill me! Ha. Ha. I'll never talk! "

Oh that is dirty pool. My answer would be "I will go to the other side of the hill (outside of ear shot) , and pray for your soul." and what ever the party did would be out of my hands.
Quote:
like the time I went diving off of a cliff over a deep lake in full armor in an effort to save a distressed woman whom had just leapt off...only to find out on the way down she was a were-bat and I had been baited but good.
that is too good, I'm sure any of my paladins (and most of my rogues) would have done the same thing.
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Post by CharlieRock »

I've always had a paladin player in my group. We rarely run into NPC paladins, but there is always one in the group. I like how their XP table slows their growth compared to a Fighter's.
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Post by Arazmus »

CharlieRock wrote:
I've always had a paladin player in my group. We rarely run into NPC paladins, but there is always one in the group. I like how their XP table slows their growth compared to a Fighter's.

I almost never get paladins as players, though as NPCs they can be source of endless frustration and fun. The players in my current game haven't had a need to interact with the high level paladins in charge of the city-state that is in charge of the east/west boundary yet. Should be good.
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Post by Eisenmann »

I'm playing a paladin in our Mythic GM Emulator driven game. With only two PCs the extra oomph has been important for keeping the game alive and moving.

In the game world he was sent out by his order to explore rumblings of an ancient evil. The order isn't what it used to be and many of the members are monkish academics rather than fighting men with a higher calling.

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Post by anonymous »

Lurker wrote:
Oh that is dirty pool. My answer would be "I will go to the other side of the hill (outside of ear shot) , and pray for your soul." and what ever the party did would be out of my hands.

Like in The Gamers 2...

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Post by Arazmus »

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Oh that is dirty pool. My answer would be "I will go to the other side of the hill (outside of ear shot) , and pray for your soul." and what ever the party did would be out of my hands.

Like in The Gamers 2... [/quote]

Another age old argument...smiting evil out of hand vs. alignment/class strictures. Always difficult that.
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Post by Joe »

It is one of the core character classes.

If magic was rare would you make players justify or qualify to play a magic user? If the laws were strict would you make a cap for rogues?

I don't know how many actual practicing priests I have ever ran into but they seem to be in every adventure party none the less. I have never met a pc that sought ANY sort of spiritual or moral guidance but they sure seem to think a cleric is needed despite the complete lack of regious observance in the average party. Do you make the party write up a justification why they want regious types hanging around all the time?

It has been my experience that only a few bother to even try to play paladins.

Maybe if I could ever get my treasure grubbing, self serving players to ever play a paladin, or have a higher goal than more more more then maybe I could see a need to limit paladins but as it stands so far I only have had one willing to play a paladin and he only lasted two sessions before he took advantage of a drunken virgin.

I guess I am of a different vein here where I WISH a player would play a heroic paladin. I have tons of game ideas surrounding the concept...just no one interested due to the artificial stigma the class carries.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
If magic was rare would you make players justify or qualify to play a magic user? If the laws were strict would you make a cap for rogues?

Yes on the first, no on the second. Why yes? If it is rare, it is rare. No one can teach you zero-level magic if there is no one to teach you zero-level magic. And... for the 2nd: so what if the laws are strict? Better not get caught.
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Joe
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Post by Joe »

Yet the heroes in our parties are supposed to be the exceptional types, not the run of the mill person. So even though paladins and mages "appear" common from our perspective as players, I would assume they would be just as rare in the setting and the game would reflect that.

I run a game of rare magics with superstitions and taboo against arcane magic. That does not mean I limit how many players can be mages. It just means they get to role play all the stigmas and bias. They get the fulfillment of facing inquisitions and frightended villagers, not limited by their options as a player.

It's a fantasy game...GMs need to allow the players to indulge in their fantasies at the same time asserting their own version of fantasy onto the players.

The fine balance act of control freak games that stifle the players creativity and monty haul wonky that players will take a game if left unchecked.

Checks and balance are good and leave a game somewhere in the middle of the balance. Mandating more requirments just to play a pc out of the PHB sounds like it is on the end of control issues.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Joe wrote:
Mandating more requirments just to play a pc out of the PHB sounds like it is on the end of control issues.

No, it is more about the type of game you wish to play and how you approach RPG's.

Requirements to play a certain class are not about control, they are about prestige. I have not played AD&D all these years as a fancy way of telling stories (well, not fully). I've played because it is a game, and a fun one at that.

For us, rolling up a character and being lucky enough to get stats which allowed you to create a PC of certain classes is part of the charm. You were proud when you managed to roll up a paladin or a monk or what have you. Your fellow players thought it was cool if someone managed to get a class like that as well.

It has absolutely nothing to do with control freak issues and everything to do with enjoying random aspects of character creation.

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Post by Go0gleplex »

[quote="DangerDwarf"][quote="Joe"]Mandating more requirments just to play a pc out of the PHB sounds like it is on the end of control issues.[/quote]

No, it is more about the type of game you wish to play and how you approach RPG's.

Requirements to play a certain class are not about control, they are about prestige. I have not played AD&D all these years as a fancy way of telling stories (well, not fully). I've played because it is a game, and a fun one at that.

For us, rolling up a character and being lucky enough to get stats which allowed you to create a PC of certain classes is part of the charm. You were proud when you managed to roll up a paladin or a monk or what have you. Your fellow players thought it was cool if someone managed to get a class like that as well.

It has absolutely nothing to do with control freak issues and everything to do with enjoying random aspects of character creation.[/quote]

not to mention that those hard to qualify for classes had abilities above those of the "normal" characters...adding to the prestige of having one.
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Post by serleran »

Well, the double-dipping of the AD&D method actually encourages a level of powergaming, because, after all, if you somehow manage to get the stats to be the class, not only do you get all these eat abilities and super-powers, but you also have all these stat bonuses for it, too. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there should also be the possibility, I think, like in C&C, to not be the "best of the best." Gods of myth are fickle -- you might be able to charm the song from a bird, but it doesn't mean you know squat about destroying evil.
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Post by Secret Skeleton »

I went years running games with no paladins but here lately we have been lousy with them. I mostly play in Greyhawk where Heironeous and St. Cuthbert are staple paladin-makers so there have been some smighty times as of late.

I basically make paladins stick to their guns and their god's dogma. It's a thing you gotta agree to before going in. No discipline, no paladin. I also only allow humans to be them as in GH, only human deities have them.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

If you got to play more than one or two paladins, Go0gle, I envy your luck (unless, of course, you were allowed more leeway during character creation). For me, I got to see two as a DM (by two different players), and I never played one as a player during my 1st and 2nd edition eras. If I recall, that accounted for about 13 years. I saw more rangers than that, and they were harder to qualify for (overall).

For me, I don't put any specific restrictions on them, mainly because they just don't get chosen that often to be played. When 3rd edition opened up all classes and WotC removed ability score requirements for classes I thought for certain there would be a flood of paladins. There weren't, at least 'round these parts. It was rangers, druids, bards, and the return of the monk that got a lot of playtime at my tables and tables I knew of. There was one paladin played at my table, just before 3.5 hit, and that guy played him well. But that's the only paladin I've seen since the end of 2nd edition.

Maybe others have vastly different players and preferences than mine. But I don't put any limitations on paladins (or other "rare" classes) simply because I don't see them come up for play that often to begin with.
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Post by Joe »

I'm not talking about the old 1st Ed requirements for playing a paladin.

That alone explains the exceptional level of the pc's which I have already mentioned.

I am talking about taking a game and adding even more limits and requirements just to play the character class which is what was decriibed earlier.

I was not even aware that many folks still rolled 3d6 for stats but hey...more power to you. If thats the "requirement" needed to play a pally then fine that makes sense. Yet this is not the point I was making. As far as I understand that is NOT a rule in C&C...correct me if I am wrong.

But the fact of the matter is I am lucky to have time to just show up at the game and support my friends. Knowing the demands my life has, I am loathe to require others to spend time on mandated stuff for a hobby.

My experience for the last few years of the 3.x era has been two folks with paladins. Both displayed some of the worst playing of anything even remotely resembling a person of honor.

My own experience playing a paladin was full of crtisism from the DM and other players because I chose NOT to play the arrogant overbearing know it all version of a paladin.

After seeing how they play paladins I realize it is not a problem with paladins, but a problem with modern age people having absolutely no clue what honor really means.

To be a paladin does not mean to be a good version of a tyrant killing everyone that registers evil on your own personal evil geiger counter, nor does it mean you have the modern view of a pacifist. It means to live in honor, for the glory of the divine.

The fact that this is an archaic and almost lost notion misunderstood by most people today is the subject of a different thread completely.

Just compare Congress to the Marines and you might understand what I am insinuating. Some live and die by it...others just use it as rhetoric when it is convenient. We as a society have learned to mimic such behavior subconciously and i think it is reflected in how we play the game to the point that we loathe the hero and celebrate the villain.
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