Players' Perspective: Save or die

Geoffrey · Post by **Geoffrey** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:07 pm

This poll is from your persepctive as a C&C player, NOT as a Castle Keeper.

By "save or die", I mean your character having to make a saving throw or suffer automatic death (as opposed to losing a number of hit points). For example, a poisoned needle trap on a locked chest. If a character is pricked by the needle, he has to make a saving throw or drop dead.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:34 pm

I have a great fondness for AD&D and Basic D&D, both of which use save-or-die spells, poisons and traps. In spite of this, I don't dig save-or-die effects and try to tone down such effects in my C&C game.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:47 pm

There is no umbilical cord between my character sheet and myself. If he dies, I get to roll up another PC... eventually.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:41 pm

As I DM/CK, I try to keep that type of thing a minimum. As a player, it sucks. But, as I stated in the other poll (lvl drain), that is the life of an adventurer - sometimes you're lucky, sometimes ya ain't!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:55 pm

As a player, it sucks, but without it I feel the game is a waste of time. I play to over come the danger, not to be a panzy.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:01 pm

Treebore wrote:
As a player, it sucks, but without it I feel the game is a waste of time. I play to over come the danger, not to be a panzy.

Aye, Cap'n! Me thoughts exactly!
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Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:02 pm

Sometimes everything has to hinge on the roll of a twenty-sider. Often it's THE defining moment of a game session...just don't overdo it.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:16 pm

Risk = reward. A character properly prepared suffers no such thing. Beside, if no one dies, how can I ever use animate dead?
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Aneoth of Ironwood · Post by **Aneoth of Ironwood** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:49 pm

COME ONE GUYS!

Do you REALLY want to live forever?

I say Kill or be killed!

But just for the sake of party unity, lets have the hirelings stay in front of the group.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:01 pm

Treebore wrote:
As a player, it sucks, but without it I feel the game is a waste of time. I play to over come the danger, not to be a panzy.

Too true. Even in real life combat there are times that it is just luck or ill luck that decides if someone lives or dies. If it true for real life it should be more so in a world where there are monsters that can kill with a look, demons with magic so powerful they can cross from hell and do mischief at will etc etc.
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GoOrange · Post by **GoOrange** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:45 pm

I don't care for this at all. It could be tolerable if you were reduced to zero hit points and your fellow adventurers had a chance to heal you with a spell, potion or first aid, but save vs death is not fun.

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:29 pm

Lurker wrote:
Too true. Even in real life combat there are times that it is just luck or ill luck that decides if someone lives or dies. If it true for real life it should be more so in a world where there are monsters that can kill with a look, demons with magic so powerful they can cross from hell and do mischief at will etc etc.

Yes, this. World of Warcraft and the like (even the Forgotten Realms-themed Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance) have spoiled the definition of RPG. No one plays a role in those games, they control an avatar. There is no real roleplaying and there is no real death of characters, unless you forget to pay your subscription.
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"I shun him."

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-- E. Gary Gygax

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:33 pm

Even as a player, there has to be some sense of danger. You are an adventurer and do very dangerous things. Without a sense that everything could end with one wrong decision, or one terrible timing of fate, you might as well go back to playing checkers.

With great risk, comes great reward.

Theoretically the characters we are playing are not bakers or cobblers. They go out to slay beasts and plumb the treacherous depths of the earth for ancient treasures. Usually in a fantasy world, these things are not easy to obtain. The things that hold such treasures want to keep them save and locked away just as bad as you want to obtain them. And like you, they are willing to kill to keep them safe.

Think of one other thing regarding save or die. Time and again you'll see players/CKs come up with the argument that if the character falls off a cliff to the jagged crags 200 feet below, the PC dies no matter how many HP they may have. How is this different than a save or die spell? In real life a single bullet can end the life of the most able-bodied. Why can't a magical beam of green light shooting out from the gnarled hand of a necromancer offer the same chance of one's life being ended in a heartbeat?

~O
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:13 pm

Included into the game with moderation, this is one of the most "edge of the seat" situations in the game. Players may not see it as fair at first, but the good players end up getting a laugh out of it later.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:44 pm

I have to speak as a D&D player instead of a C&C player, as I've not had the chance to play C&C yet (run, but not play).

I think it makes the game more fun. I'm one of those sick, twisted people (I suppose) that believes that sometimes peoples actions can lead them directly to death. Some spells, some traps, or what have you, are that poweful and wicked. You have to be careful or your dead.
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narpet · Post by **narpet** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:30 pm

The chance of certain death should be one of the inherent dangers when an adventurer is going up against powerful foes. I like it... of course that's from the CKs point of view. But it really is no fun if you know that you're always going to triumph... you have to earn it to enjoy it

Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:37 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I'm one of those sick, twisted people (I suppose) that believes that sometimes peoples actions can lead them directly to death. .

Thus the Darwin Awards.
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Ruarigh · Post by **Ruarigh** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:30 pm

I don't like save or die situations as either CK or as player. They are too final too quickly. I like my players to suffer! But seriously, if a player makes stupid decisions and dies as a result that is acceptable. Likewise, a character going down fighting against impossible odds so that others can escape and defeat the bad guys is heroic and acceptable. Dying because you failed a spot check to see a poisoned needle and then failed a save to avoid death does not fit the heroic ideal of the games I like to run and like to play in.

nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:11 pm

At some point dont save or dies become moot as the party obtains spells such as death ward, resurrection, and etc.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:42 pm

I'm not a fan of it as a player or a CK.
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:30 am

To me, save or die comes with the job description.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:29 pm

Treebore wrote:
As a player, it sucks, but without it I feel the game is a waste of time. I play to over come the danger, not to be a panzy.

Yep.

R-
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:17 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
Included into the game with moderation, this is one of the most "edge of the seat" situations in the game. Players may not see it as fair at first, but the good players end up getting a laugh out of it later.

+1

This.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:19 pm

I don't like it.
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Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:48 pm

I think Save or Die adds to the game, if used sparingly. More so if the game has shorter character sheets, otherwise too much paper is wasted.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:32 am

When your playing games like C&C or AD&D it is really no big deal but in games like 3.X or other more complex games it can be a chore to roll a new PC or calculate lost levels.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:35 am

I think there's a time and a place for it, but I don't want a return to AD&D's dichotomy of You Made It So You're Fine vs. You Failed You're Dead with every poison.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:58 am

I'm the forever CK so I just asked my wife her thoughts and voted her answer. She chose more enjoyable.

She said it is a game, not a "let me tell my story" and the game looses a chunk of cool factor for her if the "ultimate risks" part of it is watered down.

And, while not C&C related, it also led her to say that she think it will suck in the Dragon Age RPG if they don't go Save or Die when becoming a Grey Warden. She thinks the coolness of becoming one is gone fi you don't risk losing your character to do so (she's a DA freak any more).

double-c · Post by **double-c** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:27 pm

When running Death Frost Doom, there was an early Save vs. Death roll from a gas trap. I slapped a 2 min sand timer on the table and told the players to roll initiative, rounds were spent to save the persons life.

I started using the timer for all Death saves (as few of them as their were). The mini skill challenge worked out great!

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:52 pm

The bottom line for me is that save-or-die situations only exist when players put their characters into those situations.

If you don't know if the chest is trapped, don't open the chest. If you don't want to be PWKed, don't go up against high level wizards. If you don't want a single hit roll to kill your fighter, don't go up against storm giants.

Here's what I would say to my players:

If you're so risk-averse that you can't handle PC death due to the roll of a single die, don't play a game that relies on dice for adjudication of life-threatening situations. Better yet, don't play an adventure game. Stick with MMORPGS or read a Drizzt novel.

I don't run novels where the good guy always wins.
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