1st time C&C - Disappointed

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Yippee38
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1st time C&C - Disappointed

Post by Yippee38 »

Yesterday I ran The Beacon at Emon Tor using C&C for my group. We ended up all being a bit disappointed with the results. Although the mechanics seemed okay, the game didn't seem balanced at all.

The group was made up of a Ranger, Cleric, Assassin, and Wizard. They certainly made some poor tactical decisions. However, of all the combats that occurred, there was only one combat that did not leave at least one of the characters unconscious. On top of that, I was pulling die rolls A LOT.

The first combat was so bad, that the entire group got wiped. Like I said, they made some poor decisions, but I was surprised at how one-sided the combat was. So we started over with the same characters. They tried to play it as if they didn't know what was coming. That time they got through the combat (only 1/2 the bad guys were involved) with only 1 character - the cleric being unconscious. Next combat left another character unconscious. Back to town to rest.

The next combat wasn't as bad, and they got through standing. The next one, with 2 giant rats left two characters unconscious. Finally, they had to flee from the Giant Bats because they just couldn't hit them. Is an AC of 18 right for Giant Bats? That seems a bit extreme. We ran out of time at that point. They didn't complete the short adventure (after about 5 hours).

We discussed how it went afterwards. The players felt like they were quite underpowered compared to the baddies. I was "modifying" rolls to make the mobs miss about 25% of the time, and the party was still getting their butts handed to them. From my perspective, I found combat at lvl 1 to be unbalanced. I think the monsters getting a +1 to hit for every hit die and the characters not getting that, was part of the problem. Did I misread how that works? As far as I can tell, monsters roll to hit, add a +1 for each HD/level, then add their BtH (if any). The characters, OTOH, roll to hit, then add the BtH (if any) and any STR modifiers (or DEX for ranged). So 1st level mobs get a +1 to hit advantage over the party. 2HD mobs get a +2 advantage, and so on. Only the fighter doesn't suffer quite so bad as he gets the additional +1 BtH per level.

Hit points seemed to be weak on the party side. They were Ranger-6, Cleric-6, Assassin-4, Wizard-4. Add to that, the horrible AC of the party, 15, 18, 11, 15 respectively, and the party was constantly getting pounded. Like I mentioned before, Giant Rats with an AC of 18? Really? In 2e that would have been an AC of 2. I checked my old Monster Manual and they were listed as an AC of 8. That would convert to an AC of 12 in C&C if I'm figuring right. The zombies taking 1/2 damage from all physical attacks seemed kind of extreme too.

As far as the SEIGE engine went, the players and I were happy with the mechanics of it, but 12 and 18 seem wrong. It makes the chances of success really poor. There are no provisions in C&C for a really easy check. Where this was really obvious was in surprise checks. The cleric was the only character with WIS as their prime. Their WIS score only afforded a +1. That means that they had a 45% chance - AT BEST - of not being surprised. The SEIGE engine is designed to add penalties for more difficult situations, but doesn't seem to have any provisions for making it easier.

So I'd like to hear if anybody else had similar experiences with their first try at C&C, and how people adjusted things to compensate for those issues if at all.

Thanks!

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Post by Troll Lord »

Welcome to the forums Yippee! I'll do what I can to answer some of these points and questions. Sorry that you were disappointed, but a few things were off from your description, lets see where you were at.
Yippee38 wrote:
Yesterday I ran The Beacon at Emon Tor

I'm not sure what what the Beacon is. Is it a CC module done by a 3rd party, old D&D or what?
Yippee38 wrote:
The next combat wasn't as bad, and they got through standing. The next one, with 2 giant rats left two characters unconscious. Finally, they had to flee from the Giant Bats because they just couldn't hit them. Is an AC of 18 right for Giant Bats? That seems a bit extreme. We ran out of time at that point. They didn't complete the short adventure (after about 5 hours).

I'm not sure what the first combat was, but Giant Rats have an AC of 13 in C&C. Did Beacon at Emon have them marked at 18?
Yippee38 wrote:
I think the monsters getting a +1 to hit for every hit die and the characters not getting that, was part of the problem. Did I misread how that works? As far as I can tell, monsters roll to hit, add a +1 for each HD/level, then add their BtH (if any). The characters, OTOH, roll to hit, then add the BtH (if any) and any STR modifiers (or DEX for ranged). So 1st level mobs get a +1 to hit advantage over the party. 2HD mobs get a +2 advantage, and so on. Only the fighter doesn't suffer quite so bad as he gets the additional +1 BtH per level.

Monsters only add there HD to their to hit. Nothing else. They have no attribute bonuses, nor do they any levels. So a giant rat would only add 1, a zombie 1, an ogre 4, etc. Unless you are using class based NPCs with levels, in which case they don't have a HD to add, they only add their levels and attribute bonuses.
Yippee38 wrote:
Hit points seemed to be weak on the party side. They were Ranger-6, Cleric-6, Assassin-4, Wizard-4. Add to that, the horrible AC of the party, 15, 18, 11, 15 respectively, and the party was constantly getting pounded. Like I mentioned before, Giant Rats with an AC of 18? Really? In 2e that would have been an AC of 2. I checked my old Monster Manual and they were listed as an AC of 8. That would convert to an AC of 12 in C&C if I'm figuring right. The zombies taking 1/2 damage from all physical attacks seemed kind of extreme too.

Those hitpoints sound very week. Did you roll bad? Zombies take full damage from all physical weapons. According to the C&C M&T. I'm guessing those zombies were from the module?
Yippee38 wrote:
As far as the SEIGE engine went, the players and I were happy with the mechanics of it, but 12 and 18 seem wrong. It makes the chances of success really poor. There are no provisions in C&C for a really easy check. Where this was really obvious was in surprise checks. The cleric was the only character with WIS as their prime. Their WIS score only afforded a +1. That means that they had a 45% chance - AT BEST - of not being surprised. The SEIGE engine is designed to add penalties for more difficult situations, but doesn't seem to have any provisions for making it easier.

This is the strength of C&C. You, as the CK, are able to add negative CL to any situational check. I cannot speak for the percentages and odds of success. That is way beyond my mathematical pay grade haha.
Yippee38 wrote:
So I'd like to hear if anybody else had similar experiences with their first try at C&C, and how people adjusted things to compensate for those issues if at all.

Thanks!

Let me ask you, were you using the Quickstart rules or the Players Handbook? Also, where is this adventure from?

Thanks for posting and thanks for the critical comments.

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Post by Frost »

"The Beacon..." is an old White Dwarf module that someone converted to C&C. Here it is: link

To clarify this a bit:
Quote:
Yippee38 wrote:

I think the monsters getting a +1 to hit for every hit die and the characters not getting that, was part of the problem. Did I misread how that works? As far as I can tell, monsters roll to hit, add a +1 for each HD/level, then add their BtH (if any). The characters, OTOH, roll to hit, then add the BtH (if any) and any STR modifiers (or DEX for ranged). So 1st level mobs get a +1 to hit advantage over the party. 2HD mobs get a +2 advantage, and so on. Only the fighter doesn't suffer quite so bad as he gets the additional +1 BtH per level.

Steve Wrote

Monsters only add there HD to their to hit. Nothing else. They have no attribute bonuses, nor do they any levels. So a giant rat would only add 1, a zombie 1, an ogre 4, etc. Unless you are using class based NPCs with levels, in which case they don't have a HD to add, they only add their levels and attribute bonuses.

In other words the "Base to Hit" (BtH) is the same as their HD and you should only use it once (i.e., not the BtH AND the HD).
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Post by Omote »

Beacon of Enon Tor is module rewritten by a fan many years ago. The module probably has some errors in it too as it was rewritten for the C&C game before C&C was even released yet.

That being said, 1st level adventures can be quite tough. Single-digit HP combined with a few good rolls by the mosnters and a few bad rolls by the players can really hurt. The life of an adventurer is dangerous business. But with the risk comes great reward!

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Post by mgtremaine »

Sounds like a lot of bad luck all a round. The first C&C game I ran was last year for my son and wife. I converted [or I should say drew from] Sword for Hire by Flying Buffalo. Two characters a Knight and a Wizard braved the tunnels below a Wizards keep. About the only near fatal trouble they had was trying to swim across an underground river with out Strength being prime and given the situation it was tricky. Luckily they were smart enough to use ropes.

Next with a full party and 3 players I ran DCC #0 Legends are Made, not Born. They had Knight, Ranger, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Fighter and although my son was only 8 when this started the other 2 players were 40+ and cut their teeth on OD&D so we had some very experienced and cautious players. Again nobody died and thanks to well planned out actions it was only mostly terrifying for the group to face off with an Ogre.

One thing I've always done since early AD&D days. Max hit points at 1st level, seriously the game is suppose to be fun rolling a 1 at first level for a fighter's HP would basically make it suck. HP are not the place to let fall to chance early on. My son's Knight has a 7 STR so I'm hardly saying make all PC's super-human.

Having played D&D/AD&D for 30 years I can say that C&C is very solid and plays faster then AD&D [1e & 2e] and way faster the 3E+. Easy to remember to hit and SIEGE for saves and chance resolutions plus limiting actions 1 in combat keeps the game simple to manage. Sorry to hear that your game was a disappointment. I hope you give it another try with perhaps a little more prep to insure that the combats are more even. [See the notes above about BTH and AC]

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Post by seskis281 »

I too already house rule that 1st level gets max hit points.

I also 2nd what Steve said - I think you'd be better giving a shot with a mod or adventure like Rising Knight or Shadows of Halfling Hall that are geared towards 1st-level C&C play. Yeah - Giant Rats should not be 18 AC for sure.

As to "balance," well this is something systems like AD&D and C&C don't go for in the way that newer incarnations of D&D do... individual classes are unique, and talented in differing ways, so that different classes become more useful in different situations and encounters... last night, having finished Heart of Glass, my group witnessed a witch-priest of Unklar trying to flee to the north on the back of a Lial Dragon... as it swooped in 3 of the 6 characters were mesmerized by the wing/gaze of this Aihrdian wyrm, and just stood there going "booootifuuulll!!" While the other 3 had to take it on.... and they did successfully as one PC realized they had just retreived an artifact (the Font of the god of chaos) and used that to stop the dragon's attack (chaos rolled in their favor here )
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Post by Breakdaddy »

I'm in the "max HP at 1st level" camp as well. It gives the party a fighting chance. Beacon is not the best balanced adventure from what I can tell. I've never run it but looked it over. Giant bats do NOT get an AC 18. Im decently sure its 13 or 14 but don't have the M&T in front of me. Remember to add the HD of the monsters "TO HIT" only, not damage (which I think you were doing, so that's good) and only add it once. 4-6 giant bats that are what, 2hd each, are going to give a party of 6 level 1 adventurers a run for their money, but with any luck should turn out fine with the PCs having a cleric and wizard to turn to. One sleep spell should do the world of good for the group and the cleric can get on deck for the odd minor heal if someone is hit. A 2hd bat gets +2 to hit and no additional damage, so a PC with a 15 AC would only be hit on a natural roll of 13 or more on a D20, so not even a 50-50 chance the bats will hit. For bats to TPK or even kill a few of the party in this case, you would have had some really bad rolls on the PC side and lucky rolls by the bats. If you found the bats still too much to take for the PCs, you should modify the remaining bat's HP by 1/2 or more so that they can be killed with 1 lucky hit. This issue you had with your game is not your fault and not C&C's fault (just look at all the people successfully playing C&C!), but sounds like some rules wonkiness with the module itself. Any creature with an AC of 18 against level 1 PCs is going to be a real nuisance because most level 1 characters will have a hard time hitting them. If you look in the M&T you will notice that most 1 and 2 hd creatures have ac 15 or less. I hope this helps and I hope you give C&C another chance, preferably with a TLG module like the free and fun Rising Knight. In summary, I would say that with additional play under your belt you will find that C&C is very close to AD&D in "game balance" and you will be best served approaching it as such, and not as much a 3.5e game. The balance differences are subtle but visible, and C&C/AD&D are a bit deadlier than 3.xe D&D.
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Re: 1st time C&C - Disappointed

Post by Sir Ironside »

Yippee38 wrote:
Yesterday I ran The Beacon at Emon Tor using C&C for my group. We ended up all being a bit disappointed with the results. Although the mechanics seemed okay, the game didn't seem balanced at all.

Newer rpg players (New as in the last ten years. ) are used to a more balanced approach to gaming and I think that there is a common thought that any combat must be seen to the end. Us, old Grognards cut our teeth on unbalanced games and were always weary about engaging in combat. Surprise is one thing, but more than once a DM would throw and obvious, "Don't mess with them" type of encounter, where we as players had to look for alternatives and other options to 'get to the other side' so to speak. Running away was not dishonourable in overwhelming odds, and creative role-playing was encouraged and rewarded. Not everything has to be determined by a die roll, sometimes the actual role-playing is all that is needed, both from the players and the DM/GM/CK.
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Post by Traveller »

The conversion was based on the White Box version of the Castles & Crusades rules. At the time, Castles & Crusades was still in playtest, however the Troll Lords didn't want to disappoint fans at GenCon, so they had a batch of box sets produced that were designed to be reminiscent of Original Dungeons & Dragons (white box, three booklets).

A lot of things changed between the time the White Box was printed and the official first print. However, I don't expect the author to redo the conversion. He's too busy pimping his simulacrum game, Basic Fantasy RPG.

Yippee, I am curious though why you chose that particular adventure, and neither The Rising Knight or A Lion In The Ropes, both of which are free for download from the Trolls, and written by them.
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Post by K2h2m3 »

Beacon at Enon Tor is an old mod from Imagine magazine. Not sure if it's D&D or AD&D and I am not digging it out:)

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Post by ssfsx17 »

If each battle ended with only one or two characters unconscious then I'd say the party did quite well! If you want characters to be invincible and able to take on whatever that a "level 1 module" throws at them, just give them some potions of cure light wounds.
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Post by ThrorII »

Another point that has not been touched on: You should not be rolling for every attempted action, only those with a reasonable amount of failure.

This is part of the beauty of C&C. It encourages players to think outside the box.

This is how I handle it: Anyone can climb a rope. Period. No check needed. Now, if they are being assailed by archers as they climb, I'll have them roll a dex check (+dex mod, + level). If there are any rangers or rogues (who have the scale/climb abilities) they don't need such a roll. Those classes only roll when the climb is "impossible", and non rogues/non rangers would not even be allowed to attempt it.

Another way is spot/listen. Unless the item or thing to be noticed is intentionally hidden, I adjudicate that it is found if the player mentions they are looking or listening appropriately.

For example: There is a long stairway in the dungeon, leading down to the next level. Little do the characters know, but the room at the end of the downward stairs is a guard post, with 3 goblins. The goblins are drinking, gambling, etc. If the players say, "I listen for any noise down the stairs", I will tell them they hear the sounds of garbled voices, banging, and movement. If they want specifics ("what language", "how many different voices", etc) then I'll have them make a wis check. If the goblins had heard the players (due to recklessness on their part) and were lying in wait, then they would need a wis check to hear rasping breathing and whispers.

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Post by Rigon »

I ran Becon for a small group of interested people a couple of years ago. I had been playing and running C&C for a few years by then and had no trouble with any of the encounters/combats.

C&C is "balanced" in as much as the PCs are not superheros and can be killed just as easily as the monsters. Smart tactics and knowing when to retreat are a nessecity to surviving beyond 1st level.

Like others have said, you may want to give C&C another try using either The Rising Knight or A lion in the Ropes. Both are great 1st level mods.

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Post by sieg »

Just to clarify, but Beacon was converted to C&C by JB Littlefield. Solomoriah only hosts the C&C version. DF was reluctant to host it because of it technically being a copyrighted work but Sol was kind enough to volunteer to host it for the C&C community.

Yea, after the BTH/HD problem and what sounds like plain old bad luck on the party's part I think can explain much of the problems. Try another module and if they players still don't like it then C&C might not be for your group. But I'd try once again with the aforementioned rules clarifications.
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Post by Yippee38 »

I don't mind a fight ending with a character or two unconscious. However, I don't expect that the majority should end that way as it happened yesterday.

They were Giant Bats, not Rats. Regardless, it sounds like the problems were problems with the module rather than with C&C. I do not have the C&C monster book. My wife has been out of work for a year and a half, so RPG books haven't been an option lately. It sounds like that would have made a big difference. Hell, I should have compared the monsters to an old D&D monster manual to make sure they were pretty close at least.

My confusion on the BtH thing was, again, due to the way the module is written. There is a bugbear at the beginning. His stats list a BtH of +2. He's the only monster that has a BtH listed. Since he's got 3HD I treated it as a bugbear who was trained enough to be a 3rd lvl fighter. Having a +5 to hit probably had a lot to do with him being so tough.
Thanks for the advice on the house rule for hps. I've always used a house rule that lets players re-roll for hps if they roll less than half. Full at 1st level may be a better plan. The wizard didn't roll poorly as he had 4 hps. The Ranger and Cleric both rolled better than 50%, as did the Assassin. Their attributes weren't very high though.

The reason I chose The Beacon as my first module is because I wanted to try out the system, and get a feel for the SEIGE engine and the game mechanics. None of us have done any pnp RPGing since about Everquest first came out - so roughly 10 years. To that end, I decided to do something that would be a one-night module with throw-away characters, and without any hooks to a further campaign.

After I posted last night, I was thinking about it more, and thought, "The SEIGE engine doesn't say anything about giving characters bonuses on easy attribute checks. I probably should have been doing that." I'll have to figure out some kind of rule-of-thumb for adding bonuses for easy checks. My players don't role-play much. I'm trying to get them to do so more, but it's tough to change old habits.

Thanks everybody for the advice. I'm not sure we'll give it another go. I think some of my players would be willing, but others may be more likely to stick with their MMORPGs.

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Post by Rigon »

Good luck, Yippee. Hopefully the ones willing to try again will give you a good core group to game with.

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Post by Joe »

as Thror II said before, only roll when there is a good chance of failure. An easy should be a given and not just a bonus, imho.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

Joe wrote:
as Thror II said before, only roll when there is a good chance of failure. An easy should be a given and not just a bonus, imho.

And that is part of the rules as written.
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Post by nwelte1 »

Rigon wrote:
knowing when to retreat are a nessecity to surviving beyond 1st level.

I must not signal to my party that they may be over their head. They seem to like constant character death. After multiple reincarnates, we have a centaur, pixie, a badger. Briefly, the party also had a headless paladin. Crit and a 100% with for a Feathered Edged Sword for the win.

I like the lethality of C&C, but I also give some breaks so characters that players enjoy can continue on in one "form' or another.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

Good luck Yippee, I hope you guys give it another chance. Try Rising Knight. You will know by the end of the first session whether or not you wish to continue, so worry less about the adventure being a one-nighter and more about getting the most out of that first session. You can always cut it loose if you still have issues. If you are liking it, then finish the module and prepare a campaign for later! Use your old AD&D 1st edition or Classic D&D Monster Manual for the AC, it will be closer than anything 3e. Just subtract the D&D AC from 20 and you will have the C&C AC, err on the side of lower/worse if there is a question about the creature's challenge rating. When running C&C the default answer is "YES", meaning that a character should be allowed to try anything that they could reasonably attempt if they were a real person with similar abilities/training. Easy challenges are a given, dont worry about rolling for them; worry more about describing the cool way in which the attempt was accomplished. C&C is a far stronger game when run by a CK with an eye towards detail and description, not math and rolls. Have the monsters attempt things that are impossible in MMORPGs like swinging from the belltower chain onto a table next to the players. When the players see nifty maneuvers like this, they will know that they are not limited by arbitrary video game or video-gamey restrictions.

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Post by Yippee38 »

Thanks Geddy, errr Breakdaddy.

I need a lot of work on the detailed descriptions of the action. I know. Gotta share all of this info with the other players and see what they think. Hopefully, they'll be willing to give it another go with Rising Knight.

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Post by sieg »

Hey Y,

Since $$$ are an issue, a good source of (free) C&C info other than the TLG site is dragonsfoot.org whose C&C section can be found at:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/cc/

...there is a Treasure list there (from the WB C&C set) if needed as well. BTW, wasn't there a list of core monsters available as a free pdf at one time?

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Re: 1st time C&C - Disappointed

Post by zarathustra »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Newer rpg players (New as in the last ten years. ) are used to a more balanced approach to gaming and I think that there is a common thought that any combat must be seen to the end. Us, old Grognards cut our teeth on unbalanced games and were always weary about engaging in combat. Surprise is one thing, but more than once a DM would throw and obvious, "Don't mess with them" type of encounter, where we as players had to look for alternatives and other options to 'get to the other side' so to speak. Running away was not dishonourable in overwhelming odds, and creative role-playing was encouraged and rewarded. Not everything has to be determined by a die roll, sometimes the actual role-playing is all that is needed, both from the players and the DM/GM/CK.

+1, I did alot of running away, scouting and occasional exploring whilst I had dragged my unconsscious buddys to a "safe place" at first level. It was deadly to assume that any given encounter shold be balanced so that we could hack our way through.

That said, I definately would have croaked if every monster had double to hit bonuses!

Yeah I think you have it right OP about it being a scrappy module conversion, with a bit more C&C experience you'll be able to pick those things up I suppose.

On the subject of seige checks, I don't mind PC's failing often at 1st level, they are basically just normal people at 1st level, not heroes yet. The surprise description in the PHB gives scope for bonuses and penalties, so if the party was just waltzing around I'd let em get zonked if the dice said so, if they were displaying caution and being wary I'd give 'em a decent bonus to avoid surprise or simply fiat that the party was too alert to be surprised right now (I might do the same for monsters who knew a party was prowling around somewhere).

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Lurker
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Post by Lurker »

breakdaddy thanks for posting that. I've never seen it before and though I'm old school through and through it might be good to have to give to new gamers, once I start running my own game ...

Yippee, it does sound like the biggest issue was with the module, however, to me the key to surviving an "old school" type game is knowing when to run away. Also the max HP at level 1 helps too
If you have any old modules from 1e or 2e, they convert super easy to C&C. I think there are some rules of thumb floating around here to help out.
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zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra »

Lurker wrote:
breakdaddy thanks for posting that. I've never seen it before and though I'm old school through and through it might be good to have to give to new gamers, once I start running my own game ...

Yippee, it does sound like the biggest issue was with the module, however, to me the key to surviving an "old school" type game is knowing when to run away. Also the max HP at level 1 helps too
If you have any old modules from 1e or 2e, they convert super easy to C&C. I think there are some rules of thumb floating around here to help out.

I've actuaally been using that primer as a link when I advertise my game at my "local" rpgmeetup site. It gets the tone just right about pointing out what old school is about without bashing any other ways.

I normally throw in a puzzle trap or two that can't be solved just by dice rolling for new players and hey presto, they are up and running.

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Post by moriarty777 »

I love the Beacon adventure but I've run it a couple of times and I've had the benefit of owning the books as well. The general consensus on the hitpoint thing is one I agree with as well. I'm happy to hear that you have been completely turned on the negative initial experience though.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

Yippee38 wrote:
Thanks Geddy, errr Breakdaddy.

I need a lot of work on the detailed descriptions of the action. I know. Gotta share all of this info with the other players and see what they think. Hopefully, they'll be willing to give it another go with Rising Knight.

Haha, no problemo, Yipster. I'd love to see you turn around the group's initial impression by getting in there and really rockin a great module like Rising Knight! I looked at the M&T and there are no stats for Giant Bat, but like Steve said; a Giant Bat is just a Giant Rat with wings and a Giant Rat only had 1d4 HP and AC13, so you got the DELUXE SUPER BONUS BADASS GIANT BATS in Beacon
Those Giant Bats would've been toast if you'd had access to the real deal stats.
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Post by Breakdaddy »

Lurker wrote:
breakdaddy thanks for posting that. I've never seen it before and though I'm old school through and through it might be good to have to give to new gamers, once I start running my own game ...

Hey dude, you will LOVE having access to this resource. It will get your players in the right frame of mind for a proper old school game! Enjoy!
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Post by Breakdaddy »

@Zarathustra:

Yeah dude, it's a great way to intro players to the old school gaming tropes. Anyone who loves this style of gaming (as I do) will instantly gravitate towards this resource for a reminder or initial introduction to the goodness of Old School Gaming.
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Post by Relaxo »

Yeah, great link, BD!

I played in a PbP the Beacon adventure and liked it. BUt maybe the CK fixed it first. We all did a lot of running away from zombies and those bats were a pain in the ass.

Fun C&C things we did that are SO not in the RAW: use a bed as cover, move a couch and bed outside and jump off the balcony onto them to avoid falling damage, set up traps for the zombies and smash them with a barrel of nails... all in good fun.

I dunno, I liked the module. Seems I'm alone in this. Maybe b/c I had fun playing it.

Yip, soldier on and I too highly recommend the Rising knight. Like the other stuff from TLG it's solid and very very good. It's also written for C&C by the creators of the game, so no worries on the design and such.
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