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Crusader versus Domesday Book 
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Post Crusader versus Domesday Book
Just a thought that popped into my head. Not sure if there is a lot of "discussion" potential here but I thought I'd make a thread just in case.

Both are C&C publlications, but neither seems to have a lot of traction at the moment. Is there a need for both or by dividing our efforts are we effectively crippling both?

One thing I loved most about the Crusader was getting a print publication in my mailbox every so often. PDF magazines are neat, but getting a download just isn't the same.

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Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:53 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
finarvyn wrote:
Just a thought that popped into my head. Not sure if there is a lot of "discussion" potential here but I thought I'd make a thread just in case.

Both are C&C publlications, but neither seems to have a lot of traction at the moment. Is there a need for both or by dividing our efforts are we effectively crippling both?

One thing I loved most about the Crusader was getting a print publication in my mailbox every so often. PDF magazines are neat, but getting a download just isn't the same.


I agree with you on "One thing I loved most about the Crusader was getting a print publication in my mailbox every so often".

However, I'm not sure my writing would be up to par with the 'official' Crusader, and I'm horid at editing spell checking etc, so I'm not sure I'd be able to help put energy back into crusader. I'd sure buy it though ... !

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Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
The intention of the Domesday Book was to be a newsletter similar to what Polyhedron was to the RPGA. At one point we began including material for games beyond those made by TLG and was looking at the larger scope of the OSR for possible coverage. At this time there was no issue with DD being a competitor to Domesday at all and both existed side by side.

For this next part, I want to say that I am not trying to start and argument with the opinions I am going to express. These are my points of view on the situation so take them for what they are worth.

Originally The Crusader was driven by fan submissions and welcomed anything from the fans. Then, there was a change and we were told that certain submissions were no longer needed. As well, we were told that The Crusader would be moving towards a direction that would be friendlier to younger readers. Needless to say this was not a popular decision in my book and it was made known that the unwelcome ideas would be appreciated in Domesday.

After this I do not know what really happened but Domesday and that particular incarnation of the C&CS was dead. When Domesday was started back up we wanted to fill the gap left by the apparent demise of The Crusader. That worked for a couple of issues but there were problems. We knew they would be there and was looking at how to handle them. As for where we are now, I would rather defer to Pat.

As to the question; I don't know if we are crippling both. If TLG decides to go back to the former policy on fan submissions and moves away from the 'family friendly' Crusader then, I do not see a current need for Domesday. However, if they want to keep certain policies in place then Domesday is needed so that there can be an outlet for the unwanted material.

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Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:19 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Julian, you express a legitimate concern and certainly are doing so with tact. I'm not sure of the reasons for a change in the percieved demographic but I'm bummed that at the Crusader has faded away.

I'm not sure what happended to Crusader. Maybe they didn't get enough submissions, maybe they didn't have the time or energy to edit and publish. Perhaps the Trolls will consider making Crusader a "by the fans, for the fans" publication if that's what it takes to get something back into production.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The more C&C out there, the better the chance that folks will join up.

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Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
finarvyn wrote:
maybe they didn't have the time or energy to edit and publish. .


My guess is this + the costs involved.

-Mike


Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:20 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Something I would love to see the Trolls do for The Crusader and the C&CS is bring Tim Kask and Frank Mentzer on board. After seeing a few of them I have to say I liked Tim's version and direction of The Dragon the best. You add in that experience with Frank getting the RPGA up as a viable organization and I think you would have a winning team for both ideas.

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Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
I figure this would be a good idea to post this and get a few thoughts out as quickly as I can manage them during my lunch hour.

Just over a year ago, when there was renewed interest in the Domesday given the state and fate of the Crusader, I took it on with a handful of people. As it turned out, aside from the kind submissions provided and due to circumstances out of everyone's control, a lot of work fell on my shoulders.

But I was very happy to do it. I put out two great issues which, in my opinion were both sleek and professional. The quality of what we did receive was fantastic and, as far as writing goes, better than the writers themselves will acknowledge. The Domesday has always been a labor of love but it is both time consuming and still very much work.

In many ways, I was lucky -- I had already invested in various tools and software to help put these together and I had nothing but positive sentiment (when it was given) about the work I had done. At the same time, it can't be done without submissions.

When I lost my computer earlier in the year, it threw me off track. When I got on track again, I made a decision to put the material and work that needed to be done for issues 7 and 8 of the Domesday aside so that I could focus on other projects important to myself with Arcana Creations.

It's given me some time to think and, recently I have shared some of my recent thoughts and ideas to a couple of people here and they were supportive of them.

This is what I will do for the Domesday going forward. I believe the format as we know it is not working. It is not having the kind of impact that any of us (all the fans) would like. In fact, the only thing I am actually fairly up to date and regular on is my own blog. The blog by contrast is easy enough to maintain and effectively grow (in my experience), and I have really begun to think that *THIS* is the best outlook for regular content as well as a platform for feedback.

This doesn't mean that these articles won't become part of a compilation (even a physical one) down the line. I've always wanted to have this done and there is no reason we couldn't do it. However, by posting accepted submissions onto a 'Domesday blog', we would all have online access to all this great material we have sought to share.

Naturally, all the content is owned by the respective writer and would be covered by the OGL as previous material for the Domesday was.

My plan is to migrate my blog over to my domain since updating both blog and website is kind of redundant (as it stands, I update the blog but never touch the site despite the fact that I am paying for it). The Domesday would have it's own blog though.

I haven't quite worked all the details but this is the direction I'm leaning towards and I think it would do the Domesday some good. I could even repost all previous articles of the Domesday which may provide a way for John Wright who is still paying for hosting the earlier Domesday files a way to shut that down and save himself a bit of money.

To clarify -- I intend to have a Domesday compilation released via POD late this year but it would be nice to have a blog set up for all this material and hopefully, help promote new material for the blog.

Any thoughts to all of this?

M

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Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:42 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
My name is Julian Grimm and I approve the above message.

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Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
moriarty777 wrote:
I could even repost all previous articles of the Domesday which may provide a way for John Wright who is still paying for hosting the earlier Domesday files a way to shut that down and save himself a bit of money.

Any thoughts to all of this?

M


As to this part, the tripod site I pay I also still use for my own Ilshara page and the Squire's page is no extra cost so I don't mind continuing to host these there for the time being, but I appreciate the thought. Wish I could do more, but I decided to keep the site at the minimal fee I pay so it's not a sweat to keep these up.

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Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:35 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
DD Blog (Dlog?) :)

Sounds good. There are some killer blogs out there providing great rpg content in blog form. certainly the editing and stuff would be simpler.
and we all (as a community) could post content on a rolling basis, which might drive traffic, right? I'd still volunteer to proof / edit for any who desire it.

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Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:41 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
One good thing that can come of this is that it will free up time for those that want to get the C&CS rebuilt into some form or another. Not having a publishing deadline over our heads will help.

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Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
I love to read gaming blogs and there are precious few of those devoted to C&C- my favorite FRPG.

I might also like to submit some material for submission. It would let me scratch that C&C itch, as I've had to start a Pathfinder game to get my RPG fix; no one in my neck of the woods seems to be interested in playing C&C. Alack and alas. 8(


Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:43 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Julian Grimm wrote:
One good thing that can come of this is that it will free up time for those that want to get the C&CS rebuilt into some form or another. Not having a publishing deadline over our heads will help.

Well if The Crusader can do it, why not Doomsday?

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:48 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
moriarty777 wrote:
I put out two great issues which, in my opinion were both sleek and professional. The quality of what we did receive was fantastic and, as far as writing goes, better than the writers themselves will acknowledge. The Domesday has always been a labor of love but it is both time consuming and still very much work.
I'm certainly not one to complain, as I haven't submitted articles and didn't do any of the work. You have done a fine job and should be very proud of the issues you put out. I agree that the quality was supurb.

What occurs to me, however, is that maybe part of the problem is that the issues are so large that they are a lot of work to produce. We call it a newsletter but it's in reality an e-magazine, with a cover and fancy artwork and everything. Maybe an easier plan would be to scale things down to make a real newsletter (more like The Strategic Review than like Dragon) and publish shorter issues more frequently.

Just peeking at my PDFs:
Domesday #1 = 24 pages.
Domesday #2 = 34 pages.
Domesday #3 = 57 pages.
Domesday #4 = 62 pages.
Domesday #5 = 13 pages.
Domesday #6 = 21 pages.

I think those huge issues in the middle really hurt the cause, as they must have required a ton of effort to get put together. If we looked at something more like #5 and #6 as the model, focus on something like 16 pages per issue, maybe it wouldn't be so hard.

Just two coppers from someone who has downloaded but not actually worked on the project. :oops:

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:39 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
finarvyn wrote:
I think those huge issues in the middle really hurt the cause, as they must have required a ton of effort to get put together. If we looked at something more like #5 and #6 as the model, focus on something like 16 pages per issue, maybe it wouldn't be so hard.

Steve Jackson Games does something similar with its online pdf magazine Pyramid. Its numbered (02/01, 02/02, 02/03 and 02/04).

Obviously Doomsday wouldn't have 45 pages for each partial of the magazine, but if it was manageable 10 or 14 pages per part combined it would turn out to be a 40 to 56 page magazine. What makes it different is you could have one major cover and 3 minor back and white covers with the page numbering starting where the last partial issue left off.

Part 1 of 4: numbered 1 to 10 (the cover page plus blank page for the back of the cover leaving 8 pages of content.) Part 2 of 4: numbered 11 to 20. Part 3 of 4: numbered 21 to 30 and part 4 of 4 numbered 31 to 40 (with a blank page and a back cover.) leaving the content a total of 36 pages.

Doing it this way allows for Doomsday to still be a fairly large emagazine (After combining the 4 parts) without a pesky deadline.

It doesn't even mean it has to be hardwired into a number of pages. First part could have 10 pages. The second part could have 8 pages. The third part could have 14 pages with the last part being 11. This gives a grand total of 43 pages (minus four fore the front and back covers giving a total of 39 pages of content.) when combined.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Pyramid uses true covers in the 4 parts of the transition into a full magazine. I think they use a border and a slight difference in layout that make book ends of the beginning and end of the partial magazine without being intrusive if the four parts are combined. (For parts 2 and 3) This way each section can be downloaded separately but just doesn't have all the bells and whistles a cover page or end page would have. That way you could buy just one section but it is suggested you buy the whole magazine.

Doomsday is free therefore there is no reason not to get all four parts.

By breaking up the magazine into four pieces allows Doomsday to have theme issues (Or, not) without the pressure of a deadline.

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Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:28 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
finarvyn wrote:
What occurs to me, however, is that maybe part of the problem is that the issues are so large that they are a lot of work to produce. We call it a newsletter but it's in reality an e-magazine, with a cover and fancy artwork and everything. Maybe an easier plan would be to scale things down to make a real newsletter (more like The Strategic Review than like Dragon) and publish shorter issues more frequently.

Just peeking at my PDFs:
Domesday #1 = 24 pages.
Domesday #2 = 34 pages.
Domesday #3 = 57 pages.
Domesday #4 = 62 pages.
Domesday #5 = 13 pages.
Domesday #6 = 21 pages.

I think those huge issues in the middle really hurt the cause, as they must have required a ton of effort to get put together. If we looked at something more like #5 and #6 as the model, focus on something like 16 pages per issue, maybe it wouldn't be so hard.

Just two coppers from someone who has downloaded but not actually worked on the project. :oops:


I agree... which is why I took the direction I did with issues 5 and 6. There was one large submission I deliberately split to keep page count down. Sadly, both were still time consuming. One of the main reasons why I cut page count was not because of lack of submissions (though submissions were a bit scarce) but rather to try and get Domesday on a regular time frame again. I had succeeded both deadlines I had set for 5 and 6. Computer dying on my threw off my time table and when I got things running again, I needed to address other things of importance.

This is what I have learned though, regular material being put out gets people interested. People interested means more contributions and a greater pool to work with. With more people contributing, the work load could possibly be better distributed, and who knows, even be an interesting and even slightly profitable venture to reinvest in itself.

This material would eventually be combined as a PDF with POD options for those of us that rather like that sort of thing -- as a proper Journal. I think this would totally rock as a yearly release based on what is done and shared on this blog I propose.

However, it is worth asking and discussing so let me be plain about it as possible.

Would some prefer I continue what was done with issues 5 and 6 and just get 7 and 8 back on track? Do people prefer downloading an issue as opposed to finding this material on a blog? If I went the blog route, what if I opted to include each separate article as a PDF (tables can be a pain in the arse to put in a blog after all and printing something from a webpage is not always ideal).

Please... let me know what you guys prefer and if you are just watching this thread but not participating, I implore you to share a preference. It could have a significant impact on my next moves.

Thanks!

M

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Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:40 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Here is an idea that just popped in my head:

Do the blog, I know sites like Tumblr (I'd imagine other sites as well) Have an archive feature where a visitor can view all the posts you have by time line in a thumbnail view all at the same time (scrolling may be required and loading of other pages but they are all in one place) Also I know Tumblr has a submit button where you can submit text, pictures, audio and video that could be an extra incentive to collect submissions

Having them as a pdf article that would be allowed to be downloaded would also be awesome.

Then as far as the fact its a (for lack of a better word popping in my head) Periodical you could do a quarterly or yearly release where you have it formatted with a cover and table of contents then release for a small nominal fee for printing and mailing, like take orders for that release up until a week or so before the printing of it, payment required at time of order, I wouldn't expect a large turn out for that but then you could take the payments and go to a printing operation like kinkos or office max, or maybe like fed ex or something to have it printed and shipped all at the same place for those of us that would like the physical copy for our own neurotic purposes.


Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Dracyian wrote:
Having them as a pdf article that would be allowed to be downloaded would also be awesome.

Then as far as the fact its a (for lack of a better word popping in my head) Periodical you could do a quarterly or yearly release where you have it formatted with a cover and table of contents then release for a small nominal fee for printing and mailing, like take orders for that release up until a week or so before the printing of it, payment required at time of order, I wouldn't expect a large turn out for that but then you could take the payments and go to a printing operation like kinkos or office max, or maybe like fed ex or something to have it printed and shipped all at the same place for those of us that would like the physical copy for our own neurotic purposes.


Well, printing / shipping would all be third party -- POD (print on demand) most likely through RPGNow (Drivethru RPG). It would likely be the yearly thing as I mentioned but if there was enough content, eventually it would either be a bigger volume or more than one release in any given year could happen.

I mean, stranger things have happened right?

M

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Last edited by finarvyn on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

fixed the quote syntax



Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:48 am
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Post Re: Crusader versus Domesday Book
Any news on this?

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:59 pm
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