Shipping This Week {01-12-09} TLG 8502 Arms & Armor

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:03 pm

I have a real PROBLEM

I bought the PDF version of the Product and it is short by several pages...

It does not appear to have any sort of combined table and one thing that I am INCREDIBLY disapointed in is that rather than making rules that are streamlined the book seems to cause alot of micro managed rulings

I was hoping to see a better product.

I would be satisfied with my 9 bucs spent if the book had its missing pages

the product including its cover numbers 29 pages

Martin

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:44 am

Sorry that you feel that way; I'd contact Steve ASAP to get either the missing pages or handle any refunds.

As for "more rules" I tried to specify that the "Intent" rules were simply options you could use (or not) to better reflect the historical intent of the item. You can certainly use them without using any of those rules at all. Same for the Small/Large damage changes, though I didn't really specify it in detail.

Heck, its C&C! Use what you like and throw the rest out!
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:48 pm

I was hoping to catch steves attention here- Anyone buying the book is going to miss those pages

is there a table with the weapons damages by size etc?

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:15 pm

I ordered my copy back on the 23rd of January, but I have not received it yet. How long did it take you gents to get yours?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:28 pm

Wulfgarn wrote:
is there a table with the weapons damages by size etc?

Nope.

And the book is 28 pages long.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:37 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Nope.

And the book is 28 pages long.

Well then something is screwed up somewhere because the product description on the TLG website says 36 pages.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:44 pm

Treebore wrote:
Well then something is screwed up somewhere because the product description on the TLG website says 36 pages.

The description on the website was put up when it was thought the book was going to be 36 pages. It didn't make it that far. Steve's gonna get the web guy to fix it, but, you'll note that all the other ad copy has been fixed.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:44 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
The description on the website was put up when it was thought the book was going to be 36 pages. It didn't make it that far. Steve's gonna get the web guy to fix it, but, you'll note that all the other ad copy has been fixed.

Yep, I also noted earlier this evening that it is 28 pages in the new catalog as well.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:11 am

Treebore wrote:
Yep, I also noted earlier this evening that it is 28 pages in the new catalog as well.

The new flash catalog may have it correct but the site page for it says 36 pages and has said so since the Trolls first put it up. Check it at: http://www.trolllord.com/cnc/8502.html This is probably what Wulfgarn is reacting to. I was disappointed too, when I realized it was only 28 pages, after the original ad has and still is saying it would be 36 pages.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:24 am

I know, that is what I was referring to and Gideon responded to several posts up where I mention 36 pages.
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:43 pm

I know I sounded rather Harsh before and I want to be clear that I believie that the work done on the Product is well done and well thought out.

In general I was hoping for a pproduct that would follow the thread of other C&C books and have a unified system so that CK's I pl;ay with would bother with it.

As it stands with the mini rules for the varuious items I am not sure they will... It doies however offer intresting ideas and I enjoyed the history behind it.

I do have a question

1- you mentioned that you would offer damage versus various sizes of critters and it is not present in the text of the weapons- which is why I thought there was a missing table.

Was that information cut from the final draft of the material?

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:10 pm

I still haven't looked at the published work (as compared to my MS) but the average weapon or armor item had the below type writeup:

(Armor)

Armor: Aketon (Padded Armor)

%Coverage: 70%

Weight: 10 lbs (2)

Cost: 5gold pieces

Availability: 90%

Armor Class: +1 adjustment

Intent: Padded armor may be worn under metal armors with their Armor Class bonus adding to the overall AC, but such would negate any DEX bonus the wearer might have (if any).

The Aketon (Padded armor) is a cloth or canvas coat that covers the torso and limbs in a jacket style, with the coat either pulled on over the head or with an opening in the back as well as padded trousers that descend to the ankles. This padded surcoat was originally designed either as a quick set of protection for a peasant going to war or as a nobles undergarment to pad the chafing caused by the wearing of metal armors. As such, this may be worn underneath a set of metal armor to gain additional protection but only at the cost of some maneuverability. An arming cap of the same material was worn under the helm, either alone or beneath a Chain Mail Coif. The word Aketon to describe such armor was coined during the Crusades and is considered a French derivative of Cotton (the most common material used to construct such armors).

(Weapon)

Name: Axe, Francisca

Length:@

Weight: 7 lbs

Wield: One Handed

Cost: 10 gp

Availability: 80%

Damage: 1D8

DMG/SIZ: Small = 1D6, Large = 1D10

Inflict: Mass

Intent: Ease of production, may be thrown for 1D6 damage up to 10 feet +5 additional feet per Strength attribute bonus.

The Francisca Hand Axe was the standard hand weapon of the barbarian Franks that invaded the Roman Empire during the latter part of the 4th century. Its name refers to the Franks who wielded it, and was a mainstay of the unmounted warrior for centuries. Its simple construction makes it a preferred weapon of many peoples who are unschooled in weaponsmithing. In a fantasy camaign, any blacksmith could build one given a few days and the requisite Iron, as no real skill is needed for their construction. It also may be thrown for short distances for damage as noted above.

***

As you can see, the DMG/SIZE is listed in the original weapon writeup; not in the below text. If its not in the final draft, then it got cut without my knowledge.

HTH,

Mike
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:16 pm

Ok, just looked it over and apparently both the "DMG/SIZE" and some of the "Intent" writings were cut from the final product. As space was not an issue, I suggest contacting Steve to find out what the reasons were.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:12 am

Hey folks,

I apologize about the confusion surrounding the page count. The ad copy on the page was 36 pages because, when we first solicited this book about a year ago, we thought that once all the art was included it would be a 36 page book. We were wrong on that account, and though I thought I had had that fixed on the website, I apparently had not. I will contact Bryan and he will fix it asap. That will take a few days of course because he lives on the other side of the country and can't respond to my immediate needs. Lazy bastard!
Concerning the "edited" material. We cut out the damage/size material in the final draft of the book, as we did not feel it was conducive with Castles & Crusades damage rules which do not take into account the size of the monsters. Now, TO BE CLEAR Mike put those rules in there because he and I decided that it would be a nice addition. But I made the decision to remove them at the last minute after talking to Davis and Mac about them and both thought it would cause a problem in other areas with other products and confusion for newcomers to the game. I did not catch that the Crusader excerpt had them in there. So this is not something Mike did but the editors did...that being me.

Ad for 'intent' that was removed. I did not remove any of the intent sections. Mikedid a wonderful job in summing up the weapons and portraying what they were designed for and what they can do. We are looking into this.

Thank folks!

Steve
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:40 pm

Steve, thanks for clarifying the page count and damage/size issues raised here - seems to make sense!

As I am in the UK and have to wait for the chance to get my hands on this, can I just ask anyone with a copy how much of the 'intent' has been removed/lost?

This is one of the aspects I am most interested in, and was wondering if large amounts of this text has gone if the book is still worth buying? (I have a very restrictive gaming budget at the moment!)
Thanks for any info,

D.

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:05 pm

I am all for supporting your game,

that said - buy a different product than this - you will be disappointed... I was.

Also I was hoping for some realisticweights on the weapons and while some were - some just missed the barge and wound up in the river....

there is alot that could have been done to sopice up the C&C game in an official product...

I am not against the author as I have said I am just really disappointed- without a unified table... without the damage vs size your lossing a big part of what was to be...

I agree with steve that it might have been something that clouded the issue for newer players...

So I understand that choice to cut it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:32 pm

Sorry you feel that way, Wulfgarn. I understand your concerns and honestly I was a little disappointed with the loss of the damage vs. different sized creatures, also. Personally, I feel that the product is worth buying as it provides some nice information for various weapons, and some interesting variant rules for many of the pieces. My biggest complaint was that I was hoping that all of the weapons and armor from the PHB was going to be covered. I'll remain hopeful for future installments.

All-in-all, I do understand your plight. I do see some redeeming qualities (and hope for the line itself - a complied chart is something they could do in a later book) in this book and think it a worthy purchase. Sorry again it did not live up to what you had hoped it would be or what it was advertised as.
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:57 pm

Hmm, sort of one for, one against - Thanks for the replies guys, guess I'll have to ponder this one a bit deeper......
What I was looking for was a simple guide/ system that allowed some variety between weapons and armour (other than simple damage die and AC) to give a bit more 'grit' to the game (if needed), with some historical back up for the rules et al. It sounds as though 'some' of this is in the book, but I'm still wondering how much of the intent write ups has been lost? Anyone able to let me know if this is just a couple of cases, or pretty significant throughout the book?

Cheers again,

D

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:27 pm

Well, it does have a lot of variant rules in the armor section but it does appear to have lost a little bit in the weapons section (namely, the damage for Sm and Lg creatures). Not all weapons and armors are represented. Despite this, I think it is a worthy book and my hopes for a continued series remails high.
sieg...do you think there is any chance to produce the missing sections as a pdf or at least a post here on the boards (such as the missing damage entries)?
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MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:50 pm

Wouldn't it be easy to assume the damage difference between small, medium and large...? Doesn't seem like something that would make or break a book. Though it does seem like a generalized weapon damage for size variance should have been included.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:58 pm

MacLeod wrote:
Wouldn't it be easy to assume the damage difference between small, medium and large...? Doesn't seem like something that would make or break a book. Though it does seem like a generalized weapon damage for size variance should have been included.

It doesn't break the book, IMHO. Are we talking about the same thing here? "Generalized weapon damage for size variance" - isn't that the same thing DAM/SIZ entry was going to be? Take the previous example:

sieg wrote:
(Weapon)

Name: Axe, Francisca

Length:@

Weight: 7 lbs

Wield: One Handed

Cost: 10 gp

Availability: 80%

Damage: 1D8
DMG/SIZ: Small = 1D6, Large = 1D10

Inflict: Mass

Intent: Ease of production, may be thrown for 1D6 damage up to 10 feet +5 additional feet per Strength attribute bonus

Is this not damage done by a different sized creature wielding said weapon? Or is it the damage inflicted against said creature size. I'm assuming it's the former, considering the values, so aren't we asking for the same thing? Just making sure I'm reading your post right, sir.
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:01 pm

I must admit that the small/large damage difference isn't a deal breaker for me (nice idea, but something I could take or leave). Also the fact that it doesn;t cover all the Players Book weapons/ armour doesn;t bother me - the dark ages/ early medieval period is a favourite of mine and I'm hoping that this book would allow me to 'tweak' C&C for that period (I think the intention is for other books for other historical periods that should fill in the other stuff from the core books). My main concerns are that there is missing text/ intent rules that make sections of the book unusable.

Thanks again for your opinions!
D.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:10 pm

Then if that's all you're worried about, let me allay your fears. I was able to drop it right in my game and get use out of it immediately. I didn't get the feel from that there was missing text or rules that made the product unusable. I particularily like the little things, like the "Availability" percentage and weapon sizes that the entries included - it allows me to give add a bit more detail to a session when I can tell my players how long a weapon is (for whatever reason - one of my players wants to know near-exact dimensions for everything) or if something is available at the weaponsmith (as opposed to them opening the PHB and having at it ). I think you'll be pleased Grey - and I'm not even a TLG employee.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:26 pm

For me, the thing I like the most, are the little details... not the +1 to this, or the damage modifiers, but the little bits of "oh, so that's why it exists" things. Hell, I'd been giving away a full illustrated "guide" to the weapons and armors for years, but this thing is so much better, because it offers much more than a simple "description."
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:00 pm

Hey folks,

Mike and I have begun to comb the book. We have only found two small sections missing. One is on the war maul the other on coat of plates. We can't quite figure out where these went as I didn't cut them. My best guess is that there were some file mix ups when we were moving text around in Indesign. We'll post these when we've check it all. BUt so far its really not very much.

Thanks!

Steve
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MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:29 am

I'll still buy it when I can. O_O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:35 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Hey folks,

Mike and I have begun to comb the book. We have only found two small sections missing. One is on the war maul the other on coat of plates. We can't quite figure out where these went as I didn't cut them. My best guess is that there were some file mix ups when we were moving text around in Indesign. We'll post these when we've check it all. BUt so far its really not very much.

Thanks!

Steve

Thanks Steve! Would it be too forward to ask about the "trimmed" info off of the entries? Or is there still a chance that'll get published in the future?
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:57 pm

Thanks to everyone for there responses - I think this looks like a 'getter'
Wulfgarn, I think I can see your issues, but I feel that my expectations may be a bit different, and Steve MANY thanks for letting me know there are only 2 small missing 'bits' (I wasn't sure from other posts if there was more lost stuff).

Finally, Dynel, I think you managed to sell me on this (of which I am glad, as I really was hoping it would be what I was looking for - in fact since posting I've seen the 'preview' piece for the PDF at DriveThru RPG, and it looks like this is what I thought it would be)

D.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:14 pm

Grey wrote:
Thanks to everyone for there responses - I think this looks like a 'getter'
Wulfgarn, I think I can see your issues, but I feel that my expectations may be a bit different, and Steve MANY thanks for letting me know there are only 2 small missing 'bits' (I wasn't sure from other posts if there was more lost stuff).

Finally, Dynel, I think you managed to sell me on this (of which I am glad, as I really was hoping it would be what I was looking for - in fact since posting I've seen the 'preview' piece for the PDF at DriveThru RPG, and it looks like this is what I thought it would be)

D.

I'm glad I was able to help, Grey. I honestly think you'll be pleased with your purchase. If not, let me know - I'll buy your copy of Arms & Armor if you're not pleased with it. That's how certain I am you'll enjoy it.
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Grey · Post by **Grey** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:34 pm

Just had to let you know that my copy turned up yesterday, and after an initial scan read I must say that I like it a lot (thanks Dynel!), but I do have a couple of questions:

Helms - are the AC bonuses intended to be used only for attacks to the head (otherwise characters would get immense AC's by buying various 'bits' of armour)?

Plate - the text mentions 'optional' penalties, but these don;t seem to be outlines anywhere

Finally, must say I like the write ups and the little rules bits for various weapons/ armour and am really looking forward to the rest of the series

Cheers

D.