New Games

[Troll Lord]

So as I brush off the notes on the C&C Basic set and look over the copy for Pulp Siege, what I really want to be doing is a Siege Engine game on the future quest. Traveling the cosmos, turning the act of travel into an adventure.

Cosmos

Maybe the basic set can wait another year or three.

Steve

[Omote]

Perhaps a hex-based game of exploration and adventure? A paper and pencil version of many computer games that explore space perhaps?

~O

[serleran]

A spin of Star Frontiers crossed with Star Trek? Alien space monkeys. With banjos, beers, berets, and blaster rifles.

[Omote]

My perfect example of a space exploration game would be Starflight. This could also be transferred over, quite nicely, to a paper and pencil game. If you haven't, despite it's age, get a hold of Starflight. Amazing game for PC or the Sega Genesis (ROM).

~O

[Sir Ironside]

Being an old Grognard, I'd love to see either Universe by SPI, Space Opera by Fantasy Games Unlimited.

I realize that SPI was bought by TSR and FGU is just a total prick when it comes to their licensed games, so it would be difficult to wrangle either games creative properties, and the fact that the rules may be legal to use, the want to use The Seige Engine makes it all the more challenging. But, if one could get the feel of these old-school games and maybe take liberty with the titles like, Universe: The Crusade or Space Opera: The Crusade I can't tell you just how cool that would be.

[Omote]

Sir Ironside has it right... SPI's Universe would be rockin'. Even better with updated rules.

~O

[Omote]

Very nostaglic at the moment... remember that big honkin' map that came with Universe? That would be sweet with any C&C type of game. A big honkin' star map with all sorts of mysteries to solve in the mass of numbered (unnamed) solar systems. Celestia phenomina, pulsars, dead worlds long extinct of habitation, gas clouds, super novas, worm-holes, and... FRICKIN' SPACE BATTLES! HEX-PAPER SPACE-BATTLES!!!

~O

[Coleston the Cavalier]

So as I brush off the notes on the C&C Basic set and look over the copy for Pulp Siege, what I really want to be doing is a Siege Engine game on the future quest. Traveling the cosmos, turning the act of travel into an adventure.

Cosmos

Maybe the basic set can wait another year or three.

Steve

Okay, I am sure that would make a neat game - go for it!

Just pack up those C&C Basic notes and ship them to:

Brave Halfling Publishing
9324 W. US HWY 150
Edwards, IL 61528

and we will finish it up for you so that you can focus on other things.

[TheMetal1]

So as I brush off the notes on the C&C Basic set and look over the copy for Pulp Siege, what I really want to be doing is a Siege Engine game on the future quest. Traveling the cosmos, turning the act of travel into an adventure.

Let's see about this comment and put it into persepective.

1. You already have a Siege Engine game called StarSiege. Wouldn't it be simple to develop a supplement or alternate setting for this? IIRC the default setting has a Serenity, type, limping along trying to make a buck, Merc-type feel to it. Just make a hardback book called "StarSiege: Future Quest." Make it the hard cover StarSiege book, but with more unified organization and rulership ala the Federation of Star Trek with exploration rules and 1st contact rules for this game, and heavy use of Hex-Graph paper and a great Beastiery with lots of fun alien contacts. It would likely energize the StarSiege line as well.

Of course another book could be released later called "StarSiege: Xenophobia" with a more Rogue Trader/Warhammer 40K imperium type setting. This where the players exploit/explor and destroy the Alien in the name of Terra. And of course, like the above add in a beastiery with crazy aliens.

2. In addition to your own competition, you do realize an outstanding game called X-Plorers is about to re-enter circulation this year. Not to mention Traveller, rumors of Traveller 2300 appearing, Rogue Trader(and to a certain extent Deathwatch and Dark Heresy), Spacemaster, Star Frontiers, Serenity, Battlestar Galatica, Hellas, Space 1889, Stargate, etc. Of course competition is always good, just saying. As a side note, it would be interesting to see a C&C Star Frontiers if the liscense could be had.

Maybe the basic set can wait another year or three.

Steve

Don't speak such things or taunt us by saying things like this. Delaying such things as the C&C Basic Set will deny me a reason to purchase a set or 4 for my friends (and myself) as a Christmas Gift. Plus I've a niece and nephews waiting to be exposed this game!

[koralas]

My perfect example of a space exploration game would be Starflight. This could also be transferred over, quite nicely, to a paper and pencil game. If you haven't, despite it's age, get a hold of Starflight. Amazing game for PC or the Sega Genesis (ROM).

~O

+5 on that, I love Starflight... SF2 was good, but not quite as good as the original!

Another old, old, old game... I'll really date myself with this one, Road War... Post apocalyptic game based on a road gang turned heroes in the end. You have to try and find vehicles to add to your gang, supplies, and of course people. Watch out for the mutants, and rival gangs along the way. You may find cache's of supplies, weapons, etc. You may have to fight on foot while scouting an area, or fight on the road with your vehicles... it was a turn-based game and an immense amount of fun. I've always wanted to run a game based on this if I could find takers.

[Treebore]

I've already successfully adapted the SIEGE engine to run Traveller, so I'm set.

[Relaxo]

Forget all that, play X-Plorers!

[anglefish]

I'd like to chime in with some stuff that's both new and old school

Dawning Star
It's like Earth 2/Firefly meets Babylon 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawning_Star

The only known human colony fleet that escapes an extinction-level asteroid. With no FTL, the fleet mysteriously jumps to a new solar system and they rebuild capital city planet side with the junked bits of the fleet. Then we find alien ruins that are surrounded by separate primitive race that call us "brothers." Soon, people out in the field are having nightmares about something out there hunting us.

Justifiers RPG (never played, but loved the idea)
The Island of Dr. Moreau Meets Outland/Blade Runner
http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtm ... ionid=1784

You're animal/human hybrids grown in the lab and sent out to explore since you legally don't have any "Human Rights."

[mordrene]

Forget all that, play X-Plorers!

oh fo sho

[Relaxo]

Shop SMART!
Shop S-Mart!

[Lord Crimson]

Count me as another vote for making more use of StarSIEGE rather than building a different SIEGE game for your SF fancies.

And you can still use hexmaps for your space battles... just use each hex to mark one range increment for the relevant scale.

All that being said, giant star-maps are awesome! Build a cool (lots of realistic awesome-sauce) but easy to use "random star system generator", and you're gold.

[treant_on_fire]

Count me as another vote for making more use of StarSIEGE rather than building a different SIEGE game for your SF fancies.

And you can still use hexmaps for your space battles... just use each hex to mark one range increment for the relevant scale.

All that being said, giant star-maps are awesome! Build a cool (lots of realistic awesome-sauce) but easy to use "random star system generator", and you're gold.

Agreed. I've already paid for a TLG sci-fi game, I'm not buying a whole new game for the same genre.

StarSIEGE is a solid RPG and I must point a finger and say that it would have done much better if the company had supported it more.

I'm willing to buy supplements for StarSIEGE but I won't encourage a new sci-fi game from the same company. Right now SS:EH feels like an orphaned child.

[anglefish]

I think StarSiege had three issues that a new book could address.

• 1. Create a class system for those who wanted something more like "CnC in Space." (Put the core rules in back for advanced play)
  2. Provide stats for a LOT more toys, critters and aliens.
  2.A Provide a more dynamic background world
  3. Improve the less than stellar layout of the first one

There was a thread some time ago that talked about those issues in detail, but my search fu is weak.

[treant_on_fire]

I think StarSiege had three issues that a new book could address.

• 1. Create a class system for those who wanted something more like "CnC in Space." (Put the core rules in back for advanced play)
  2. Provide stats for a LOT more toys, critters and aliens.
  2.A Provide a more dynamic background world
  3. Improve the less than stellar layout of the first one

There was a thread some time ago that talked about those issues in detail, but my search fu is weak.

I would agree to a 2nd printing of StarSIEGE with more stuff in it and better art, sure...

1. The game already gives you all the rules needed to make classes. Those who just don't do it are lazy. A 2nd printing could have a section of optional rules, including classes. (Yes, imo classes for SSEH should be a variant rule)

2. THAT could have been accomplished if TLG had backed up the product a bit more and convinced those intimidated by the toolkit aspect that they would have a lot of goodies in supplements. (Cyberpunk is one example we saw on the boards, it would have been crazy cool)

2nd 2. Meh. I'm glad it's a system I can work within universes that I like or that I create myself. I wouldn't be bothered by an official setting coming with the game if it doesn't remove the toolkit aspect though.

3. Yeah o.k, I kind of agree it didn't look shiny... But then again I don't need it to look shiny, I need it to have a good solid system.

[anglefish]

3. Yeah o.k, I kind of agree it didn't look shiny... But then again I don't need it to look shiny, I need it to have a good solid system.

I understand, but the reality of the biz is that it's 10 times easier to sell a mediocre game with great presentation compared to a great game system with lousy presentation.

A 144 page StarSIEGE: Assualt hardcover with the core rules in the back as a GM's "toolkit" chapter and the front half providing some classes and stuff for the "lazy" (i.e. 90% of time strapped GMs out there), would provide a solid "everything you need to run/create a game" product.

Perhaps for the setting, do it Freeport style. Provide a detailed starbase location that can be dropped into any campaign. There's the balance of creating a concrete place for adventures compared to the thumbnail sketch of each speices that you ususaly get in an introductory product.

[treant_on_fire]

3. Yeah o.k, I kind of agree it didn't look shiny... But then again I don't need it to look shiny, I need it to have a good solid system.

I understand, but the reality of the biz is that it's 10 times easier to sell a mediocre game with great presentation compared to a great game system with lousy presentation.

A 144 page StarSIEGE: Assualt hardcover with the core rules in the back as a GM's "toolkit" chapter and the front half providing some classes and stuff for the "lazy" (i.e. 90% of time strapped GMs out there), would provide a solid "everything you need to run/create a game" product.

Perhaps for the setting, do it Freeport style. Provide a detailed starbase location that can be dropped into any campaign. There's the balance of creating a concrete place for adventures compared to the thumbnail sketch of each speices that you ususaly get in an introductory product.

Listen, I mostly agree with you, I'd probably buy the new printing of the book as long as it's the same author/rules to encourage the product... but... Seriously, what's this obsession with classes? It wouldn't make the game easier to learn/play/use, it would only make character customization more difficult.

I'm all for classes in a game of medieval fantasy, either because I got used to it because of D&D or because I see fairy tales and stories of fantasy as having more archetypal characters (the wizard, the brave knight, the woodsman, etc) For sci-fi, I don't see those archetypes so pinpointed and laser-focused.

Classes would not make SSEH better. I don't even see in what world it would make it better. I don't see who would go and say "Oh it looks like a great game, solid mechanics, fun to play, but... I can build my character the way I want to build him. This makes me uncomfortable. I'd rather be pigeonholed in a class..."

Now, personally I don't mind classes. D&D 3.5 is one of my favorite RPG games. I also don't mind making sure each player has their role to play. For an upcoming SSEH game I've got, I explained to a player that since the other player made a big deal about how they wanted to be the mechanic of the group and he wanted to make a bounty hunter, how about he doesn't put points in mechanics and places them in what he'll need for his job instead? And that he can always do normal repairs with a toolkit fairly easily, it wouldn't have to mean he'd be incompetent in that area; he just wouldn't be an expert.

Honestly when playing games with classes, I often find myself trying to find a way around them to create the character I have in mind DESPITE the classes. I multi-class, take variants of said classes, search for Feats, try to find the one prestige class that will allow me to make it work...

And again, I'm not against them for certain games/genres, but they are limiting. One cannot deny that. I don't see how SSEH would benefit from becoming more limited in character build. However I'd see no harm in having a chapter specifically directed at instructions and tips for building classes, along with some examples.

Unlike others, I wouldn't want to lose the 'toolkit' aspect of the game. I like that it tells you "This is what you need to make this your own game."

And I think I've just put my finger on why the idea bothers me. SSEH is a toolkit rpg. That's what it is. And classes don't work for toolkit RPGs, they work for established settings. And honestly, the fact that it's a toolkit is what made me buy the game. I like the idea of not having to use a new system every time I want to play a different sci-fi game, even if the worlds are very different.

And here's the shocker; one day I might do a SSEH game with classes, just for fun, with the classes fitting the campaign I'd have in mind.

Because the game already comes with all the rules needed to create classes.

[anglefish]

LOL!

Trent, we are the same page, personally, when it comes to classes.

But ...

Steve's email gave me the vibe that he wanted to do a product from scratch that covered the same territory as StarSIEGE, but would be more traditional (i.e. classes.)

And I remember hearing that some fans were disappointed that SS didn't provide classes. There's also the GMs who are strapped for time with families and demanding jobs who can't indulge in a DIY approach.

So my thought was that the original game was so tight and verstitle that not only could it could literaly fit in the back half of a larger book as Advanced Rules for those who wanted the toolkit approach, but it could also run seemlessly with classes bolted on.

It's an idea that I see as a compromise, the Trolls don't have to start a new game from scratch, SS gamers get a new product, and new customers get two options on how to build their games.

[cheeplives]

And I say if Steve wants me to work on such a project, he knows where to find me. I'd gladly re-examine and design StarSIEGE if the Troll Lords so wanted.

[treant_on_fire]

And I say if Steve wants me to work on such a project, he knows where to find me. I'd gladly re-examine and design StarSIEGE if the Troll Lords so wanted.

If it was done by the same author, still compatible with the original version and classes weren't forced down on us but just one option among others, I'd support it.

Ideally I'd just want some supplements for SSEH as it is already.

After Edit: After some thought, yeah, a new printing with more background info on the setting that came with the game, better/more art inside the book and having it be a book instead of a box set and more tech and gadgets already built for the players and Siege Engineers would probably help the game a lot. I just don't want the rules themselves changed beyond some errata or small tweaks.

[jinaroleder]

There are many new games now and most of them are free to play. The StarSIEGE is different and I think the concept is unique. I just can’t find some comparison to other games.

[Piperdog]

SSEH is a great game concept. It is a bit much to digest in one sitting, and takes a walk through to the books to really get. Some ideas are harder than others to grasp simply because there is little explanation behind it, while other concepts are explained in depth. Skill Bundles as primary or non-primary, instead of attributes, is really a gem of a concept (really, it is cool). I have mulled over an experimental C&C game with a few StarSeige concepts ported over, like the skill bundles, no classes, etc. SSEH is worthy of a hardcore relaunch IMO, in a beautiful hardcover set. To be successful, I think slamming out a core rulebook in the vien of PHB, a setting book, an alien/bestiary/races book, and an equipment/spacecraft book. Maybe only the core book would be hardcover and the rest softcover supplements, but they would all need to come out at nearly the same time. Why? It says here were are and we're serious about this game. People percieve a systems value often (but necessarily correctly) by how much support and materials are available for a game. SSEH deserves to get another shake.

As to the whole classes thing, I think some sort of optional class system could be instituted for those that like that.

[Ronin77]

I would find it very weird to make a new game for sci-fi at all while star siege just sits waiting for a setting. Its a tool box and could be used in different ways to create different settings.

As far as classes I was thinking about doing some customizable templates like the old D6 starwars had. Not exactly a class but something for quick character creation and get ideas running for new players.

[Lord Crimson]

I would find it very weird to make a new game for sci-fi at all while star siege just sits waiting for a setting. Its a tool box and could be used in different ways to create different settings.

As far as classes I was thinking about doing some customizable templates like the old D6 starwars had. Not exactly a class but something for quick character creation and get ideas running for new players.

That's the thing. You can actually create "classes" fairly easily in SS if you really wanted to (and if you're creating a new book; why not do some examples, right?)

Just give every "class" one mandatory skill bundle (say, Combat for Soldiers or Handling for Pilots). Then give them a selection of 2 or 3 other skill bundles for a second choice. Then, if human, they can choose a third skill bundle from wherever.

Ignore the skill list entirely, because you'll be using Competence Level instead. But you'll be using a slightly increased XP cost per level. Use that extra XP cost to cover the abilities the classes get at different levels. So, by 5th level, every class should have (wild number pulled from my ass) 25 XP worth of extra powers/ability boosts/whatever built into it (using the trapping system). So Soldiers have some specialization bonuses (they just have to pick a weapon to assign it to) or extra health, Pilots get some bonuses for vehicle specialization and some bonuses with vehicle weapons, Spies get an extra bonus to disguise and deception, Assassins get killing attacks or the ability to bypass armor, and the Psychics get so many XP worth of powers and/or boosts to their Psi score.

Now you've got a class system that makes sense, is mostly compatible with the default rules, AND (most importantly for a toolkit game like SS) allows GMs to generate their own classes and powers in a relatively balanced fashion (for example, the GM just has to make sure that the Class has about 25 XP worth of powers/bonuses by 5th level. Doesn't matter if it's a little off, so long as the excess points go towards another ability at a higher level).

[Ronin77]

Oh trust me in sold on starsiege. I was just saying if not wanting classes was the issue than there was other ways of doing it. After all "stars without number" totally rocks out the old school D&D rules with scifi.

[area_51_games]

Dear Troll Lords and Creator’s of Star siege

I am writing to address the issue of star siege re-lunch and to offer my opinion

as a potential buyer of this your product.

One I find Castles and crusades and the siege engine in that version very gamer friendly and very

adaptable to gamer mind set. I do come from the old school of games genre and want that in my product.

When T.S.R. CAME OUT WITH star Frontiers they too had made a similar mistake I feel you guys are making here with SS;EH or star siege event horizon.

If you would please permit me to explain I would be Grateful, because it might effect a product I am more welling to buy!

If you had not notice science fiction and space opera are about story toys, then we have why every want to be a jedi issues because we all like our mystic psionic powers in space.

So first and foremost what is wrong with castles and crusades in space?- Dragon star took and made that a very interesting approach, thus you have people that if very compatible would buy the game for the cross over- it also can provide technological issues for people who my just want to do Expedition to barran peaks type game.

SO I beg please do not make the mistake of Boot hill and Star frontiers – later much later TSR actually made buck rogers and used the Ad and D system for old buck and it got my attention, did it not yours>?

Science fiction is a Great place to have classic monster become playable races!

I have often thought of using the Castles and Crusades system re-done for science/space fiction/opera-

Science fiction has to have the following

open and expansible setting “ Like Star Trek or Like the old Battle star Galatica”

even Star Gate universe or Atlantis Type of programs.

We like our scores mid range I love having a 18 something or even a 19 0r 20.

I also want you to know maybe we need to start a gamers section for starsiege section or support group pre lunch and have people pre order the game to gather interest. But I want a space opera that is compatible with CASTLE AND Crusades- do not change my strength to physique – or my Wisdom to What ever, I think that STRENGTH-CONSTITUTION-DEXTERITY-INTELLIGENCE-WISDOM-CHARISMA “ tell me why this is not compatible for science fiction?

and then there is the Toys , not tool kit, because honest I can set down and figure laser pistol I want to be powerful so I want it to have 3d6 damage! No matter the creation rules you make up well change what I want as a game master! Making up design rules to me has always been silly if the game master

want something different, just show example if we like it we keep it, if not we change it, and we don;t need no sticking rule book that runs 128 page to do it!

What I want is ideals as a game master, and how to run a sci fi game. Give me a equipment list and

art and space vessels to ride and fight in, Look at Titan AE and Star chaser- Great setting types of space opera, and they work because they do not spend hours explaining things.

And why is it is that you think we have to go to a skill system?>

The use of the Class system or more accurately the Archetypical structure is easy for players it leads them into quick choices and quick play, using skills are fine but place them in the classes.

I have learned over the years the more skills the more choices the longer it takes to Create a character, FGU space opera is a good example, character creation can take almost two hour with a

experience player, due to the large mega list of very specific skills. I believe that the rector set approuch is fin in the appendex or as a stand along supplement lke Fire fusion and steal of The New Era Traveller Game system.

but to make a group have to build everything just to play!

I think is counter productive to your commercial value.

Then you can do fantasy setting that progressed to Edwardian age technological or even Castle and Crusades in spaaaaceeeee!

That what people want that what they expect and please it OK to do it!

Get Mike Steward to write it, he has done some excellent work before and gets it!



here is a url to the forums viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10663&p=183183#p183183

here in the forum I posted my quick write up of my version of starsiege : space opera !

StarSiege Relaunch
the way I see a basic general space/science fiction role playing game is set up very much like fantasy.
you have staple races and Careers/classifications aka Classes

you have the seven Species categories
Animal-oid humanoid - Dog men, Cat men tiger men, Winged men < very flash Gordon>
Machines men / androids cyborgs and robots
shapeshifters/blobs metamorphs
Grays / intellectual advance but physically weak types humanoids
Human/hominieds - Cyborgs , mutants , Trans Gene Men
Lizard men/ dinosaur, slestak,
Bugmen/ insectoids
*Alien/ something totally alien that no one well understand or even want to play

then your classes are simple and very broad just like fantasy
Agent : rogues, Smugglers, Pirates , spies
Combatant; space marines, Startroopers, Mecha Pilots
Explorer: scouts, Astronauts, space rangers
Techno-mancer: Field scientist, Slather Doc, Starship Engineer
Mystic: lens men, Jedi , Bene Gesserit,

no mater what someone is they can easily fall into those five categories
example : Dr Who = Explorer, Han Solo = Combatant, Stainless steel Rat = Agent, John Carter of Mars = Combatant, Darth Vader =Mystic
I see no need to change the scoring system 1- 24 is good enough with modifiers
you can tweak the system buy allowing background or multi-class or even cybernetics or augmentations in equipment.
that is the simple structure of a science fiction game that is right out of the box and it fits all science fiction models and setting by just dropping the items that don't fit!
the reason this works is its been proven to be the most playable just like the fantasy model. its not so much about true fantasy,
as the Genre of the Fantasy rpg, so too science fiction roleplaying game is not about the literary genre of science fiction,
but about the Genre of science fiction role playing genere and its expectations of those who have grown up to like and want that structure!
well the same thing is true about science fiction! its about the most open and playable science fantasy!
instead of calling your game star siege maybe you should be writing SIEGE ENGINE the Core Book!

WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY : That there exist a classic rpg structure that I believe is classic old school and its what is but one of the ingredients to that tanky Troll lords taste in your games.
if you ignore it and continue down the path of TSR , or other rpg game producers you do so at the peril of losing sells and customers!

Your Fan and customer

Christopher Lee House aka Gaharis