Returning Home

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Snoring Rock
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Returning Home

Post by Snoring Rock »

At GenCon 2015 I tried a few D&D 5e games and enjoyed them quite a bit. At home I was still running C&C games and had gone “all in” with the 3-Sisters and the Aihrde KS’s. Those who were part of the KS will recall that this KS was shipped in pieces and took a while to be fulfilled. TLG also had some other KS’s going and Judges Guild had started the, now failed, KS for CSIO. I was KS’ed out.

My players, some of them new to C&C, wanted something a bit more crunchy, with more “options”. Options always mean power-gamy to me. I had enjoyed 5e at GenCon and had purchased the books, so we started a campaign using the 5e. It went well. It went very well. I did however, not like the incorporeal mechanics of the game for undead. Rather than just requiring magic weapons to hit, they just bypassed damage reduction. So PCs can still hit undead like this with normal weapons but with reduced damage. Ok I guess, but not what I was used to. There were some other fiddly bits I was not comfortable with but I did like the advantage/disadvantage rules. Easy….and clean.

Behind all of that, I had received the C&C PHB for the KS and was very pleased with it until I started finding some of the same systemic editing poo-poo repeated in the new printing. Some that were pointed out by myself and others, but did not get fixed. Then the CKG that had some glaring mistakes in two tables, that I myself, and other had pointed out. Disappointing. Take that with the KS over-dose and I had a bad taste in my mouth.

So as the Codex or Aihrde was delivered and then the Players Guide, and the modules that came in the KS, I just shelved the books, never even opening them. I had made my feelings known here on these forums, and I feel I did so with every right. I paid for product that was not edited well. Let’s not even argue that point kids. I am right. The two charts in the CKG were like the straw that broke this back. I just moved on and played 5e. I have not even cracked a C&C book until just recently at Gamehole Con.

Frank Mentzer, in the midst of blunders on DF forums and allegation of sexual harassment, decided to cancel his appearance at the con and that included the game I had tickets for. That had me scrambling to find something else to do Friday night at the con. Luckily, there were still slots open in Stephen Chenault’s game. I traded my tickets for that.

It has been a while since I played C&C. It was actually quite refreshing to open the old PHB and see the familiar Peter Bradley art. All those bearded axes! It was a great game. Anyone who has not played with Steve, needs to if you ever get the chance. It got me to thinking about dropping by the TLG booth to see what was new. I see that the Mystic Companions has replaced The Book of Familiars. Better name, better layout.

When I arrived home after the 6 hour drive, I went to my gaming cabinet and pulled the two new books (Codex of Aihrde and Players Guide to Aihrde) off the shelf, that I have not even bothered to open since they were delivered. I thumbed through the players guide and sat down to read just a bit. I became immersed in the fantastic world that TLG has created. I read on and on and after 3 hours realized I had been reading that long. This book is well written and is the kind of setting I yearn to play in. This is soe excellent stuff.
So, some of my players from my weekly game also attended Gamehole and had the chance to play in that game, as well as two other C&C games. These guys are really excited about the chance to play it. Each of these guys went and purchased PHB’s the next morning in the dealer’s hall. We have about 4 weeks left in the current campaign and then we will be switching to C&C in the setting of Aihrde.



Home again.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by DMMike »

Welcome back... :)

Right now I'm not playing C&C but I'd play it before 5E. I know what you mean about 5E, its a game I'll play but not run. I too like the (Dis)Advantage system but other things bug me.

As for the errors, well....I tell myself that TSR never edited their 1E books; even when they went to new covers for the core books. <shrug> None of the errors really inhibit play so when I run it I just wing the decisions and C&C is great for that. :)

Mike
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http://www.victoriousrpg.com

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Treebore »

I like 5E. I like 3E and Pathfinder. I like 1E and 2E AD&D. I like Labyrinth Lord, Swords and Wizardry, the Rules Cyclopedia, Basic Fantasy RPG and more! I just like C&C best.

Nothing wrong with giving other systems a try, especially if you end up liking it the best. If not, you can always return to C&C and bring the best ideas you really like from other sources along with you to C&C.

Welcome back!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Revturkey
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Revturkey »

Couldn’t agree more Treebore (almost rhymes). Currently on my gaming shelf...C&C, DCC, Leagues of Adventure, Frontier Space and Swords & Wizardry. They are all great and all slightly different beasts. I enjoy a variety of games and it keeps me fresh and inspired to play.

I really like my C&C books and the game is excellent. I am reading them to refresh my memory at the moment for running of a future game. I do keep finding odd little editing/proofreading errors. I guess it is a time pressure thing but it is a shame. I don’t buy some TLG products because of this...the adventures I found to be a frustratng read in the past. It’s unfortunate and probably costs TLG money and reputation overall..luckily C&C is terrific and one of the best rpgs available and the Trolls have always struck me as cool people and well worth my support :)

Here is my personal C&C wish/pipe-dream:

I’d like to see a re-edited, tighter, more concise printing of the game with, instead of trying to be all glossy and colourful, a more old school presentation. Black & White (no page backgrounds which inhibit readability). Kickstarted to pay for new internal art.. Colour illustrations would be alright but push the price up which makes it harder to get a casual purchase...but I’d like it to look crisp, clean and super easy to read...the D&D 4th Edition books are a good example of being super easy to read but having some colour as well, for me. Covers by Jason (he is nailing it), Elmore or Easley...heck give them orange spines lol. I’d like to see the very best parts of the CKG (I think it is good but has more ‘filler’ content than it needs) rolled into the new Core Rulebook and the same with Classic Monsters being rolled into Monsters & Treasure to go back to a two book set. Well, there you go...not going to happen but I thought I’d share my silly wish-list with you for some reason lol :)

Anyway, C&C is wonderful as it is, I’m a fan regardless of my comments. I wouldn’t post this on a more open forum where people might start bashing the game and edition warring etc...

:)

Treebore
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, editing issues is a long running complaint. I've sworn off buying any new printings until they are finally addressed. They really upset me with how horribly they mishandled Victorious. We turned in hundreds of edits, and as far as I can tell not one single edit was applied for the print run. Very unprofessional of TLG, that is a certainty.

However, I am still having a lot of fun running the Victorious game I am currently running, and my group seems to be enjoying it as well. So editing errors clearly don't ruin a game, just lessen the product. So it would be nice if the Trolls really focused on making their products be as good as they can possibly be. Especially after 7 print runs with regards to the PHB. Or actually ensuring edits that get turned in are actually integrated. Crazy professional standards like that.

Prior to their fiasco with Victorious, and it is a fiasco, at least I could justify it because they were actually on par with other major publishers. Even WOTC has well over 100 pages of corrections for their 4E D&D books. Paizo and Mongoose missed entire chapters in a book or two, and so on. However, with their miserable handling of Victorious, TLG put themselves in the forefront of being the worst edited books in the industry.

I don't even back their KS' anymore. Not because of how slow they tend to fulfill them, because they do fulfill them, eventually. I'm just sick and tired of buying sloppily done books. So now I will wait until I can see how well, or poorly, they bothered to do the given product. Then decide if I will buy it. All because of how poorly they handled doing Victorious.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Lord Dynel »

Welcome back, Snoring Rock. I've recently returned to C&C, too, from a hiatus. Almost the same thing as you - players wanted to try 5e out. Even though the ones who did left my group, we continued because we were enjoying it and because they had some investment in their characters. We're actually about to continue a 5e game after some downtime (we haven't played sine Gen Con) and I'm guessing this game won't totally wrap up until next spring. After that, I've got some ideas for a Forgotten Realms Grey Box campaign in which the characters will be exploring Myth Drannor.

As to Kickstarters, book editing, and the current TLG marketing and business strategy...well, that stuff used to bother me, to be honest. I didn't like how most products "needed" a KS and how edits weren't getting made (especially after all the input, as Tree mentioned). But I realized that, for me, life's too short to hold a grudge like this. I hope for the best with TLG and their releases. If they need to do Kickstarters to ensure product gets published, I understand. I'm a little less understanding about all the editing issues (and I don't hold to the philosophy that "it's their charm!") but it's something I try to come to terms with. C&C is a great game, the Trolls are good folks, and I try to support them the best I can. ;)
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Captain_K »

I got one for you, black and white print, color only for pictures. NO GLOSS. HIGH cotton content paper. Leather bound. EDIT the HELL out of it.

Any volunteers to help? Page by painful page.

If we could promise simple and tidy. What do you think? Would it be worth it?

How would we "vote" on black and white vs brown and green?
gloss vs matte
cotton paper vs pulp

Majority rule?

If you have never held a high cotton page book in your hand... its half the weight and the texture and feel is seriously old school.. only read while sitting in a leather chair, smoking a pipe, and sipping something expensive... that's the posh image I have whenever I have that kind of book in hand.

Is this not a job for the knights of the crusade?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Post by Omote »

Captain_K wrote: Is this not a job for the knights of the crusade?
Been there. Done that. I've retired from TLG's editing gig for the reasons mentioned throughout this thread. The most recent 7th printing PHB in the leather format is the best, most premium version we are going to get. So I will probably also retire from purchasing any more PHBs until true Crusaders can convince me that 4 printings-worth of edits have actually been incorporated. I'm not talking about changing rules, I'm talking about basic edits (3 printings of "Armo:r" is freaking killing me, as well as many more).

But the premium leather PHBs are so nice, I hope TLG does do M&T and CKG versions. I will probably pick those up when they make them just like the premium version of the upcoming Tome of the Unclean.

OH, and welcome back SnoringRock! It would be a sad time indeed if you gave up your more excellent C&C CKing sessions, of which are incredibly fun.

~O
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, its become the beginning of the end for me as a customer. I love the rules too much to ever stop running or playing in games, but I've gotten tired of TLG's laziness or ineptness. If they want to move forward with me as a "buy everything" customer, they will have to step up their professionalism to actually being professional when it comes to editing their books.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Snoring Rock »

Omote wrote:
Captain_K wrote: Is this not a job for the knights of the crusade?
Been there. Done that. I've retired from TLG's editing gig for the reasons mentioned throughout this thread. The most recent 7th printing PHB in the leather format is the best, most premium version we are going to get. So I will probably also retire from purchasing any more PHBs until true Crusaders can convince me that 4 printings-worth of edits have actually been incorporated. I'm not talking about changing rules, I'm talking about basic edits (3 printings of "Armo:r" is freaking killing me, as well as many more).

But the premium leather PHBs are so nice, I hope TLG does do M&T and CKG versions. I will probably pick those up when they make them just like the premium version of the upcoming Tome of the Unclean.

OH, and welcome back SnoringRock! It would be a sad time indeed if you gave up your more excellent C&C CKing sessions, of which are incredibly fun.

~O
Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Omote »

Snoring Rock wrote: Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!
I was supposed to be at GameHole this year, but had to change plans fairly last minute for another trip. I will endeavor to be at GameHole next year boss.

~O
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Revturkey »

I wish I could afford those leather editions...they look great. Btw, I didn’t want to come across as being a grouch before. I love the game and don’t want to sound too negative etc :)

I’d say welcome back to Snoring Rock but I’m kind of new so it didn’t sound right lol. I used to be on the forum but I think it all got redone and I only just remade my membership etc...

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Re: Returning Home

Post by serleran »

I am slowly trying to get back into writing something, anything, for gaming and C&C is simple enough to let me do that. I never really completely left... just slowed waaaaaaaay down.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Snoring Rock »

Omote wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote: Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!
I was supposed to be at GameHole this year, but had to change plans fairly last minute for another trip. I will endeavor to be at GameHole next year boss.

~O
It will be epic my friend! Dude.....may blow your mind by trapping a trapdoor again.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Snoring Rock »

Revturkey wrote:I wish I could afford those leather editions...they look great. Btw, I didn’t want to come across as being a grouch before. I love the game and don’t want to sound too negative etc :)

I’d say welcome back to Snoring Rock but I’m kind of new so it didn’t sound right lol. I used to be on the forum but I think it all got redone and I only just remade my membership etc...
Well then welcome back to you too.

Revturkey
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Revturkey »

Thanks, I ran some C&C a few years ago (back when the 4th Printing PHB was all the rage). I enjoyed it. I’d been running 4th Edition D&D, which although I liked for what it was...was pretty sluggish pace wise...C&C was a breath of fresh old(school) air! I ran Assault on Blacktooth Ridge, a couple more modules by TLG and a bunch of the Goodman Game conversion modules...I liked ‘Secret of Smuggler’s Cove’ best...that went great.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Treebore »

Omote wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote: Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!
I was supposed to be at GameHole this year, but had to change plans fairly last minute for another trip. I will endeavor to be at GameHole next year boss.

~O

What happened in Vegas did NOT stay in Vegas.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Returning Home

Post by Omote »

Snoring Rock wrote:
Omote wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote: Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!
I was supposed to be at GameHole this year, but had to change plans fairly last minute for another trip. I will endeavor to be at GameHole next year boss.

~O
It will be epic my friend! Dude.....may blow your mind by trapping a trapdoor again.
Image

More epic than that mountain stronghold red dragon fight? How could it be!?!

~O
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Re: Returning Home

Post by Omote »

Treebore wrote:
Omote wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote: Be at Gamehole Con next November. I will run games again!
I was supposed to be at GameHole this year, but had to change plans fairly last minute for another trip. I will endeavor to be at GameHole next year boss.

~O

What happened in Vegas did NOT stay in Vegas.
Oh believe me, it stayed in Las Vegas!

~O
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VAE VICTUS!
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Post by Captain_K »

If errors have been clearly pointed out, is there any excuse or understanding of why they have not been corrected? Traveller is pretty good.
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Post by Omote »

Captain_K wrote:If errors have been clearly pointed out, is there any excuse or understanding of why they have not been corrected?
No. Any for Trav to befall TLG's inept attempts at editing is completely unfair to him and damages his rep, particularly if he wants to seek other positions in the RPG publishing field. Many of the basic edits that still remain, have been pointed out to TLG since the 4th printing, maybe even the 3rd.

~O
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Post by Captain_K »

That's what I thought too Trav, seems on top of these things, so why are the fixes not happening? As an engineer who write too damn many report (and you've seen my work on the last three Domesday Books), getting right the first time is not easy, editing is not easy, but once something is pointed out not fixing it is inexcusable.

Is this something I should point my lance at, kick my horse into a gallop and hope its not a windmill?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

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Post by serleran »

If Steve is adamant about not fixing textual 'errata' in the form of grammar (where it does not detract from rules intent) and spelling, then yes, it would seem quixotic at worst.

Sometimes, and this is not necessarily true on this case, the errors are the style.

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Post by Treebore »

Steve says he is fixing errata issues in prep for the 8th printing, and they are currently working on a new M&T as well. So if you know of any errata that was not mentioned in the other thread that Trav had made for the 7th printing, please get it to me and I will forward it to Steve.


Don't know if my going onto public forums and stating I am essentially boycotting TLG products until they prove they can handle errata after all these years had anything to do with it. It did make Steve contact me, though.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Post by Traveller »

Adage: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

For the record, I'm not too worried about my reputation. I keep my editing copies, as they show my work a lot better than the finished product. I also have them backed up on a second hard drive as well as my Mega cloud storage.

I do need to get a copy of Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde and see how the finished version came out compared to my edits. It's a low priority given my current work load however.

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