On the Anvil: TLG 8951 C&C Basic Game

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Post by Frost »

I didn't get the need for this at first until I read Steve's posts in this thread. Now I get it. I have one nephew who has no RPG experience. I can see now that even a simple game like C&C (and I say that as a compliment) might be hard for him to grasp without someone teaching him. Come to think of it, I think 99% of RPGs I've played, I've learned by someone teaching me. A kid with no context might find any RPG a bit confusing at first. Whenever this basic set comes out, my nephew is getting this as a b-day or X-mas gift.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

I'm hoping for it soon. But I understand wanting to get this right and other priorities. *cough*CKG*cough*
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Post by Troll Lord »

I'm anxious to get this finished, but truthfully until the CKG is at the printer it remains on the back burner.

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Post by jaguar451 »

I think most of the forum would agree with that prioritization....

And, um, now you have a little time before the Christmass shopping season....

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Post by Lucifer_Draconus »

Missed X-mas... Hopefully we'll see it before NEXT X-mas or even my next B-Day. I'll buy this to get my nephew into RPGs.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

I'm hoping it's ready at/by GenCon. I'd prefer earlier, but with the attention on things that I'm just as anxious in seeing (CKG, G&M) I can be a little more patient. I'm just hoping it can do what I'm hoping it can - be a suitable introduction into role playing for my kid. I'm waiting to introduce him, and it's either this or the Mentzer Red Box.
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Post by Omote »

Well, assume that at GenCon TLG needs to have a big release. Most RPG companies strive to have a big release for GenCon and TLG should be no different. From what TLG is saying, the CKG should be out before then. If that is the case, perhaps C&C Basic will make a debut at Genny.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

That would be perfectly acceptable to me!
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Post by Omote »

Of course it would be, Mr. GenCon attendee.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Omote wrote:
From what TLG is saying, the CKG should be out before then.

But they need to add "this time we mean it!"

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Post by DangerDwarf »

IN regards to C&C Basic though...

Is this going to be a starter kit for people getting into C&C or is it going to be a separate line much like D&D and AD&D were? Personally, I'd love to see them be separate lines, C&C and C&CB, with variant rule sets. Preferably with C&CB having descending AC's.

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Post by Omote »

Decending ACs... are you serious? I think those days are long, long gone. But that is just me.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

Yup, the beauty of the descending AC system is that it isn't prone to "big bonuses" that irritate me for some reason.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

I do kinda like the idea of BC&C and C&C being two separate lines. It would actually feel 'right' since I have grown to see C&C as a continuation of 1e and AD&D.

Decending AC though? No. I think that along with Thac0, hit charts and percentile thieving systems these are outdated and replaced by (IMO) better systems.
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Post by serleran »

I highly doubt declining AC will be used -- kids tend to have issues with negative numbers.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Meh. We were all kids and doing them back in the day. No good excuse to wuss them up now.

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Post by serleran »

You were playing AD&D when you were 6-8? Considering the game assumed 12+ (that is, pre-exposed or being taught the "hard math,") you were precocious. Me too.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

I was playing red box at that age actually. It had descending AC too.

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Post by MacLeod »

I think THAC0 was a horrid thing. If it was my choice it and the ideas directly associated with it would never appear in another game ever again.
I also think that making BC&C a separate line is a bad idea. I'd rather TLG focus on C&C and their other SIEGE efforts. I'll use the following statement to back up my point.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

serleran wrote:
You were playing AD&D when you were 6-8? Considering the game assumed 12+ (that is, pre-exposed or being taught the "hard math,") you were precocious. Me too.

I was playing AD&D when I was 8. It wasn't that hard. ^_^
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Post by serleran »

I didn't say it was, for everyone -- but, the largest segment is not the smallest group (of precocious children who grasp what they're told) but the more "average" crowd who are probably just starting to get into the concept of negative numbers, decimals, and fractions -- to sell best, in my opinion, is to sell to the most. That doesn't mean "dumb it down," but it also doesn't mean to make it "obtuse" on purpose. Naturally, everyone will have a different reaction to virtually everything... I'm just thinking law of averages.
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Post by Buttmonkey »

I was playing 1e at around age 8, but my dad was helping me and we ignored a lot of the trickier parts of the rules (e.g., no weapons v. armor type, no psionics, no segments). I first discovered negative numbers while playing 1e, so I view that bit of crunch as a good thing. I still remember having something like 5 hit points, getting hit for 10 points of damage, and looking at my dad with a "what the hell now?" expression. He told me I had -5 hit points and my brain about exploded. 5 seconds and a number line later, I was on my way.

Using descending AC would be nuts. Part of the idea of a basic set has to be to provide a simpler introduction to the C&C game with the aim of having younger players graduate to the "real thing" at some point. There should be some uniformity between the systems in terms of mechanics and overall play.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

MacLeod wrote:
I also think that making BC&C a separate line is a bad idea.

It would work I remember the BECMI days well enough to know the line would be successful if marketed right. Plus C&CB could be the game that gets FRPG's back on the radar in other markets.

It's not like this would be a big line either. An adventure or two here and the occasional supplement. But probably not more than three or four releases a year. If that.
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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

Well, one publisher has offered to focus on supporting C&C Basic Set.

But I fear the world may end before this system gets published.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Buttmonkey wrote:
Part of the idea of a basic set has to be to provide a simpler introduction to the C&C game with the aim of having younger players graduate to the "real thing" at some point.

I dunno, I kind of think it rather difficult to make C&C that much simpler. It's an easy system as is. The only way to make it simpler is to remove some of the class, race options and I'd feel 100% robbed at getting a "partial" C&C regular in a box.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Continue to count me in on the thinking that would be a welcome addition to the line and not a "bad idea." I think a box set is something that would be a great responsibility for a younger person to "take care of" and have all he needs to play in one place. Assuming it's something that will reduce the selection of classes and equipment (including weapons and armor) and possibly races, too, down to very basic levels for a younger person to grasp and not be overwhelmed would be awesome. Now do another basic booklet (ala the Red Box) for the CK - a few low-level monsters, some treasures geared for lower levels, and perhaps a few pages giving a cursory examination of the SIEGE engine and what it means to "role play." Now add an adventure (a new, basic one) and throw in some dice and maybe even a small (24" x 36") poster with monster illustrations on it and call it a day. It would be awesome if it could be done in the $20 range, just for a compelling price-point.

I also like it for the "not yet C&C player." it gives them broad, yet basic, overview of the game, its chief mechanic and everything that's needed to play the game. Great to give out as presents to relatives, friends, and even the significant other not yet into gaming. I know I'd probably buy three right off the bat (one for me, one for my son, and either one for my wife or for another friend...hell, I might buy 4!)

I think that it would be an awesome idea. The core C&C books are easy to grasp, at least to me. But I try to think about those who never seen any rpgs in any form ever before and think of the benefits a Basic Set would bring. I'm just sorry that C&C didn't get one out before 4e did.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
I dunno, I kind of think it rather difficult to make C&C that much simpler. It's an easy system as is. The only way to make it simpler is to remove some of the class, race options and I'd feel 100% robbed at getting a "partial" C&C regular in a box.

I kind of thought about that too, DD, for a bit. But think about it - you're looking at it from a C&C veteran POV. Look at it from a 7-year old or a "Bob from Accounting" POV. They're not going to be missing anything, and things added later (the illusionist or the half-elf, for example) will be "awesome" additions to the game.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Yeah LD, but they already have that product HERE

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Does it use current and up-to-date info from teh latest printings? Is it still available in a box set form? Does it come with dice? Is it geared

I look at a few things, in my own crazy viewpoint, that I feel are important to a Basic Set. Availability, visibility, conducivness to play, and completeness I think are things that are important. I'd like to see it avaiable in book and game stores. I see it's a pdf. That's great for us gamers, but not for everone. Is it available in print form? Is it completely self contained? Could I give it to my friend Bill and could he and his wife play, out of the box, tonight without any further purchases. The monsters are all over the place in the Condensed version - Centaurs, Dragons, Giants - those aren't necessary in a Basic Set.

These are all my opinion, so I hope not to offend anyone.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Yeah, that little white box set they produce and sell.

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