Create a mighty Munchkin.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:50 am

Ok.. prompted by a post I just read at Enworld, I figure this could be a fun bit of silliness for folks to idle time with.

Towit. Create a munchkin character using the C&C rulebooks and the grey areas of the rules.

For instance. A wild elf, per the M&T, gets the ability to track as a ranger, no matter what class said elf takes.

I think making a fighter out of a wild elf presents several nasty possibilities. Deadly combat, stealth, the ability to trail opponents. In short, an all around effective guerrilla fighter.

Have fun with it.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:50 am

Well, there is the benefit an evil cleric gains from using animate undead and rebuke undead together. The spell description specifically says the rebuke limit does not count towards the spell's limit so a fifth level evil cleric can actually command around 25 undead (rebuke) plus the 10HD of undead from the spell.

Then it only says that they lose command of older created undead who then are left to their own mindless inclinations. (basically just attack creatures that enter their area). Presumably this means you could point the limit an evil cleric can control worth of undead in one direction (towards a town) and create a new batch once that group has left range. This makes an endless, infinite number of shock(ing) troops to take over small towns with. Move in afterwards, loot, gain XP for that loot and power level yourself.

Insta-XP through use of Necromancy.
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wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:31 pm

Great, now I have to retract my statement.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:32 pm

Just find a CK who'll let you do anything. Or, be a girl.

Munchkin enough?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:52 pm

wolfpunk wrote:
Great, now I have to retract my statement.

Well, think of the utility of such an exercise for the CK. Get enough people to chime in, one knows what to look for later.
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wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:31 pm

It seems to me and I could be wrong that there is no real size limitation for two weapon fighting, so apparently there is no problem with dual weilding two bastard swords one handed. I realize that that isn't hordes of undead zombies, but it does seem like a ranger could use this along with their other class abilities to do some pretty decent damage.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:01 pm

Yeah, this is going to be hard of people are going to pull out rules like "there is no rule to cover this."

Going by straight PHB, M&T there is not a ton of "broken" stuff. PB, already mentioned a good one. There are others too, but nothing in the realm of BRINGING C&C TO IT'S KNEES, at least that I have found.

-O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:08 pm

Omote wrote:
Yeah, this is going to be hard if people are going to pull out rules like "there is no rule to cover this."

Going by straight PHB, M&T there is not a ton of "broken" stuff. PB, already mentioned a good one. There are others too, but nothing in the realm of BRINGING C&C TO IT'S KNEES, at least that I have found.

-O

Hence my qualifier about using grey areas and unwritten rules. I thought this might be a fun exercise.
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:34 pm

Paladin / Knight-- gets a horse for free, later on gets a badass horse for free, is really good at horseback riding, exaults, etc, and is also great at doing damage to enemies, having a high ac vs. evil, etc, immune to fear. And all based on CHA, which you put your 18 into...

And the cost of this multiclass? You are 1 level lower than the single class wizard in your party!

Assassin / Illusionist-- use illusions to disguise yourself as your target's guard. Use disguise to get close to target & study him, & plan your escape. Use death attack on your target. Run down the hall, and use illusions to make it look like you ran down the other corridor, while making the one you ran down look like it is actually part of the wall.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:47 pm

Hmm, I've got 2 fully barded war walruses pulling my pavis on wheels upon which my knight stands (footrests) while directing dual lances that are held by said pavis.

Also double repeating heavy crossbows are built into the pavis and the knight's gnome squire will fire these as the team charges into the enemies ranks!

Lessee, the walrus' barding is spiked for side rakes against enemies too.

Get out of my way ye orcs and goblins!

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:17 pm

1st level druid-wizard; can have a wild boar as a pet (animal friendship) and they attack as a 5 HD monster -- give it spider climb and/or jump. Also, you can make permanent magical items (magic stones and goodberries.)

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:24 pm

Permanent goodberries? What, do you have to sit there with a sieve when they pass?

And I'm sure folks would call my Rogue/Wizard a little munchkiny. At first level, sneaking up on the BBEG and Back Attacking with Shocking Grasp. Thing is, it evens out quickly with a multi-class, when everyone else zooms past in level.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:47 pm

serleran wrote:
1st level druid-wizard; can have a wild boar as a pet (animal friendship) and they attack as a 5 HD monster -- give it spider climb and/or jump. Also, you can make permanent magical items (magic stones and goodberries.)

While you're at it, declare the boar is not only your druid companion animal, but also your wizard familiar. Tell the CK that it is so you won't "powergame" by having 2 animal followers. When he agrees to this reasonable request, cackle with glee!

Now your 5HD pet will have double Hit Points AND you get to add its HP total to your own HP! So a wizard w/ 4 HP with a familiar with 50hp begins with 54 HP! Hua ha Ha HA HA!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:49 pm

Not quite; it is still a 2 HD creature, but it attacks like a 5 HD one. That part is not unclear.

ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:20 pm

A well-played pure Illusionist can take over the whole world. Or at the very least, take over a large country by replacing all of the leadership with illusions and impersonating the king through disguise.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:55 pm

After having played 3E, RIFTS, Synnibar, etc... C&C can never make anything I would call a super munchkin.
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Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:44 am

Treebore wrote:
After having played 3E, RIFTS, Synnibar, etc... C&C can never make anything I would call a super munchkin.

Putting 3e on par with Rift and Synnibar on that matter, says a lot about it... Where min-max is concerned, I have seen a build where a high level paladin with the right combination of feats and circumstances could do 250 pts of damage with a single attack (combining a horse charge attack with heavy lance, power-attack, smite and what not, but no magical weapon involved). I also have seen the absurdity of a high level rogue sneak-attacking with a bow while being under a speed spell (simply atrocious). It's fortunate that C&C cannot allow for things like that.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:19 am

Turanil wrote:
Putting 3e on par with Rift and Synnibar on that matter, says a lot about it... Where min-max is concerned, I have seen a build where a high level paladin with the right combination of feats and circumstances could do 250 pts of damage with a single attack (combining a horse charge attack with heavy lance, power-attack, smite and what not, but no magical weapon involved). I also have seen the absurdity of a high level rogue sneak-attacking with a bow while being under a speed spell (simply atrocious). It's fortunate that C&C cannot allow for things like that.

Yeah, now take into account I played (not DMed) in two Epic games that went to 48th and 66th level in 3E.

If felt a LOT like RIFTS and Synnibar.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:09 pm

Quote:
It's fortunate that C&C cannot allow for things like that.

Can not is a bit strong. Sure a C&C game could have such things. We all play differantly and use differant rules. If thats the kind of game you love then by all means do it.

Some of the most fun I've had playing rpg's was in a overpowered munchkin game. Power level doesnt auto rule out great role playing and story telling.

The greatest thing about C&C is that YOU can turn it into whatever type of game you love.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:25 pm

GameOgre wrote:
Can not is a bit strong. Sure a C&C game could have such things. We all play differantly and use differant rules. If thats the kind of game you love then by all means do it.

Reminds me of that KoDT strip where the new guy walks out on B.A.'s game when he discovers Dave has that Hackmaster +12.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:15 pm

GameOgre wrote:
Can not is a bit strong. Sure a C&C game could have such things. We all play differantly and use differant rules. If thats the kind of game you love then by all means do it.

Some of the most fun I've had playing rpg's was in a overpowered munchkin game. Power level doesnt auto rule out great role playing and story telling.

The greatest thing about C&C is that YOU can turn it into whatever type of game you love.

Very true, but if the 1E and 2E "super games" are anything to judge C&C by the games of C&C that will feel like 3E, RIFTS, and Synnibar will be few and far between.

But its still true, what your saying, its all about playing the kind of game that makes you and your gaming group have the most fun.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:41 pm

Just go and kill a few hundred gods; done.

Beyondthebreach · Post by **Beyondthebreach** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:17 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Hence my qualifier about using grey areas and unwritten rules. I thought this might be a fun exercise.

Well . . . I've given this question some thought and I've decided that I would like to play . . .

A multi-classed Human Monk/Magic-User. (using the Multi-Class rules as written in Castle Zagyg, of course!)

The DM has allowed 4d6 to be rolled for ability scores with the low number dropped, so the results are above average. My Character has:

S: 16 D: 14 C: 16

I: 14 W: 12 Ch: 10

Okay, now for starting HPs. Max HP at first level is the House Rule, so Kane the Monk/M-U has 18 HP. (According to the Castle Zagyg Appendix as written, a full HD is acquired per level, per class. There is nothing that says otherwise, so it must be assumed that 1st/1st level means d12 for Monk plus d4 for Wizard plus Con bonus.)

Kane's first action is to summon a random familiar . . . let's see . . . randomly he gets a Hawk with 2D6 (perhaps with 9 HP). That added to 18 gives Kane 27 HP at first level. Sweet!

Now, Kane isn't done. He notices that he does Open Hand damage of 1-4 but some of the the wepons like spiked gauntlet and brass knuckles do 1-3 HP of damage. Something isn't right here. Obviously, the Trolls forgot to take this into account on the damage charts. How could he do less damage with Brass Knuckles? Why would they even be on his weapon list? The listed damage is certainly for non-Monk characters . . . I think my Monk should get to add the 1-3 along with his 1-4 for additional damage. After all, the cestus adds +1 to damage, so there is some precedent. DM discussion results in allowing the next higher die.

Kane the Monk/Wizard does 1-6 with an Open Hand attack using Brass Knuckles.

For my offensive spell, I'd like Shocking Grasp please. Oooh, and how about Shield as Defensive.

A light Flail (1d8) for the off-hand weapon plus a Spiked Gauntlet in the Off-hand (also 1D6). Better get that Shocking Grasp ready now to discharge when needed.

Now, Mr. DM, it says that Shocking Grasp does 1D8 +1 per level from a touch. But Kane isn't just touching his foe - he is going to full out punch him with his brass knuckled hand. I mean, it is still a touch technically - It just doesn't make sense that the Shocking Grasp wouldn't get discharged. Okay, I agree, since he is swinging, he needs a normal "To Hit" roll and not a "Touch" roll.

My Shocking Grasp Open Hand attack now does 1D6 +2 (Str. Bonus) plus 1D8 +1 (shocking Grasp). I also like to use it after a nice, bold charge for another +2 Damage. The rules don't actually say I can't multi-weapon fight after a charge, so I will swing my Light Flail in my off-hand for 1D8 +2. Maximum damage potential is 17 for main hand plus 10 for off-hand. Hey, do we allow Crits in this Campaign? I also like to drop the Flail and use my Spiked Gauntleted hand and attempt Stunning attacks in the ensuing melee.

Can't wait to get Mirror Image once I hit 3rd Level!

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:19 am

I like the cut of your jib.

But...

I don't think it's kosher to combine a melee attack and a spellcasting attempt into one motion, even if that spell requires a Touch Attack. That would be two separate attacks.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:32 am

Harry Joy wrote:
I like the cut of your jib.

But...

I don't think it's kosher to combine a melee attack and a spellcasting attempt into one motion, even if that spell requires a Touch Attack. That would be two separate attacks.

The Shocking Grasp lasts until successfully discharged by a hit (touch), so I think its within reason, in the case of the Monk, to say the Monks open hand damage combines with the discharge on a normal to hit, not a touch attack. Once. What he really needs to do to munchkin is to create a shocking grasp spell that lasts one per caster level, discharging each round per successful attack, NOT touch attack.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:09 am

No, you just create your own gloves of shock... problem solved.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:35 pm

Beyondthebreach wrote:
Okay, now for starting HPs. Max HP at first level is the House Rule, so Kane the Monk/M-U has 18 HP. (According to the Castle Zagyg Appendix as written, a full HD is acquired per level, per class. There is nothing that says otherwise, so it must be assumed that 1st/1st level means d12 for Monk plus d4 for Wizard plus Con bonus.)

That's a good one (though I have seen somebody use this with a fighter mix and discharged after his sword hit).

This part keeps dragging my eye back to it. I don't own Castle Zagyg. But it seems to me the houserule would effect the first level only. The M-U level is technically the second. If this was allowed however:

Tack on a level of barbarian, cast grasp, go into fury, and watch the damage really stack up (fury + mirror image is atrocious as well). Max HP for barbarian1 would be 12 (plus Con and 18= 32hp at technically 3rd level). Then do a level of ranger (Hp is now at 44 for technically fourth level) and mix in marauder (nothing says marauder can't kick in during a fury boosted with a grasp spell).
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:59 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
That's a good one (though I have seen somebody use this with a fighter mix and discharged after his sword hit).

This part keeps dragging my eye back to it. I don't own Castle Zagyg. But it seems to me the houserule would effect the first level only. The M-U level is technically the second. If this was allowed however:

Tack on a level of barbarian, cast grasp, go into fury, and watch the damage really stack up (fury + mirror image is atrocious as well). Max HP for barbarian1 would be 12 (plus Con and 18= 32hp at technically 3rd level). Then do a level of ranger (Hp is now at 44 for technically fourth level) and mix in marauder (nothing says marauder can't kick in during a fury boosted with a grasp spell).

The Zagyg multi classing rules are available as a free download off of TLG, but I don't know if they are identical to whats in the book. I use my own rules that I have used since 1E.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:46 pm

You'll also note that the CZ:Y document has been modified, slightly, to reflect what was actually supposed to be there.

Beyondthebreach · Post by **Beyondthebreach** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:56 am

Of course, he is just a 1st level Munchkin now. Someday he will be a hasted, flying, shocking grasping & improved invisible Monk/Wizard. (At 7th level, he would only need to roll a 3 to pass his Con check and avoid a HP loss from Haste ( +7 level bonus, +2 Con bonus) with a Con as a prime and only needing a 12. Eventually, he can haste without fear of HP loss (unless the DM house rules a roll of 1 as failure).

Sometimes, though, he will be a mirror imaged, fire shielded, shocking grasping & spider climbing Monk/Wizard.