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Giants are undersized 
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Giants are undersized
One thing that has bothered me over the decades is how small Giants are as portrayed in the game. Giants, through mythology and various works of fiction are often on par with dragons in terms of power, the two often clashing with each other and giants at times even enslaving dragons. Yet, Storm Giants, the ones portrayed as the most powerful of the Giant races, are a mere 25 ft tall.

Giants are often times portrayed as able to swallow a human in a single bite. Going through this via math, the average human male is 6'-0" for base line purposes (I know it was shorter in medieval era, but they are hero types here :p ) In terms of body proportions that is equal to 8 human heads. Each head being roughly 9-in/22.86 cm in height. So a Giant head has to be at least equal to 6' in height...and its body 8 times its head, ergo the giant must be at least 48 feet tall in order to swallow an average human male whole. That's twice as tall as the strongest giant, which are not really man-eaters per se. Those would be the Hill, Fire, and Frost Giants mostly. Hill Giants are only 1.5 times the height of a human male. Thus 6.5 times shorter than they should be if able to eat humans whole....or 37'-6" too short...and are 25' shorter than Storm Giants...or 2.3 x shorter

Ergo, if Hill Giants, the frequent man-eaters, need to be 48 feet tall to do so, then Storm Giants need to be 110-feet tall min. as a relative size to their smaller cousins. This also brings them into a more even contention with adult dragons that can be 100' or more long and back onto the even footing that mythology denotes them to be. It also makes them more 'giant' where they DO use hovels to sit on, make the ground shake when they walk, and are tall as some trees, not just an underwhelming overgrown humanoid only 4x bigger than a human and totally outmatched by dragons and many other monsters.

I gather shorting the giants was done to remain more in scale with miniatures on the table and allow for more of a culture amongst them rather than the wandering individual engines of countryside-wide destruction they are depicted as, but it really disappointed me when I first started playing that they didn't really match all the myths and legends I had read...incidently making them the largest disappointment I had in D&D when I first started running my own games. Anyone else ever felt like that or think that they need a bit of a growth spurt in their flavor fluff?

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Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:33 pm
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Ulthal
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I like the size of the standard giants. They are one of the few higher level, classic monsters that I never thought were under powered or undersized like 1e Dragons. G1 - 3 were some of my favorite adventures. The only thing I liked better about the 2e giants was the addition of strength bonuses.


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:07 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I make a few modifications to giants, other than add more:

1) They have elemental-like effects. Fire giants have fire resistance/immunity and can cause licks of flame to appear around themselves and their weapons. There is a reason there's a phrase "giants in the earth" as it is not only literal but demonstrable.

2) Giants get a smashing area attack so they can smoosh multiple foes at once.


Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:31 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
You would love my Norse Giants then.. same types... but all cast spells, Mage, Illusionist, and slight Cleric... All are tall, usually double the M&T. The powerful ones are the age of dragons and the ancient ones are Demi-Gods or greater.
Yep I agree.. an Ogre is a big thing, a Hill Giant, OK 10' and you got an classic English Giant.. but a stone, frost or fire... those are things of Norse Legend.. don't screw with them.. even the God built a wall to keep those buggers out.

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I don't find a 130' tall giant particularly useful in my game as

1) it can be seen from an incredible distance
2) they don't fit in dungeons and a great deal of the exploration occurs underground
3) they have to level entire forests to build one cabin or carve out an entire mountain or whatever -- that is kinda cool, but it does tend to make it obvious

So, I prefer to allow them a slight ability change. They get taller as they grow more violent.


Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:00 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
love that idea.. but a Joten live on their own plane and everything is there size there.... if they come to our neck of the woods, yep, they would be out of place, obvvious etc.

But normally I double height, so not 130' for say a run of the mill front giant 20'x2 = 40'

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:28 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Giants never really built houses. They lived in large caves or just slept on the ground outdoors. Some napping so long that they became mistaken for hills as time and nature covered them with dirt and vegetation. Standing out? Of course! Entire armies mobilized to drive them away at least, if unable to kill them. They swing their weapon and crush a house. Humanoid kaiju!!! Heck, ogres and trolls from myth were 12-15 feet tall by themselves. (Giants by David Larkin is more what I think when creating a giant encounter.)

Not saying increasing their stats but just their height or referring to them as lesser giants versus true giants.

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:15 pm
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I get it.

Our two ideas / views are not incongruous except with the less-barbaric types, in a sense.

Theoretically, dwarfs should be far more magical than they are. Many of the monsters could take a more direct mythological approach but that's also not what makes them what they are -- they sort of need to be their own thing to be their own thing. Though I don't recall a game that had all giants actually be gigantic. Maybe Palladium does it. So, you have a point there.


Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:35 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Norse Dwarfs, Norse Trolls, and Norse Giants.. put that prefix on them and they can be as you wish... need.. For me the best smiths and makers of magic items are the dwarfs of the North.. making magic items from the blood of stones, the breath of trees, and the sounds of silence. The trolls are smart and powerful mages. The giants, we've all ready discussed.

Its the beauty of CnC, start with what you have and tweak it!

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:22 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Dwarves - smiths & rune masters
Elves - Enchanters & Spell weavers
Gnomes - jewelers & enchanters

That's how my groups until I moved to OR have seen these races. Again...based off literature and myths more-so that game fluff.

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Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:29 pm
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Red Cap
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I agree with Go0gleplex on this. And until recently, while working on a Sea Giant class, I thought they were taller. I always imagined them towering over trees, peeking over mountains, and throwing house-sized boulders. The only exceptions were the hill and fire giant, I assumed that they were smaller.

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Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:16 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Captain_K wrote:
love that idea.. but a Joten live on their own plane and everything is there size there.... if they come to our neck of the woods, yep, they would be out of place, obvvious etc.

But normally I double height, so not 130' for say a run of the mill front giant 20'x2 = 40'


I'm with you on this.

Giants by the book have enough power but are a bit to 'short'. x2 to x3 height should be correct.

Making giants so big they can swallow a man in one gulp, and peek over mountain tops is a bit excessive.

Go0gleplex wrote:
Dwarves - smiths & rune masters
Elves - Enchanters & Spell weavers
Gnomes - jewelers & enchanters

That's how my groups until I moved to OR have seen these races. Again...based off literature and myths more-so that game fluff.


Rgr that

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Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:17 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I also give giants a kick attack. Not only does it cause damage when their foot connects, but then I calculate damage based upon how far they kicked you through the air before you land. I roll 2d6 x10 feet, for every 10 feet you were kicked, you take an additional d6 of damage from the landing.

Plus, do not forget, Giants are godly when compared to simple one HD human peasants. Adventurers are what throws that off, which still works, because adventurers are godly compared to normal 1 HD peasants. PC's are the Heroes of Legend, that the tales tell about their great fights with dragons and Giants, and since they live through it, their tale gets told. Those who died are never remembered, they failed. Unless they succeeded to buy time for others to live by running away. Even so, they still wouldn't be as great a tale as those who ended the threat of the giants or dragons once and for all.

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Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:32 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Treebore wrote:

I also give giants a kick attack. Not only does it cause damage when their foot connects, but then I calculate damage based upon how far they kicked you through the air before you land. I roll 2d6 x10 feet, for every 10 feet you were kicked, you take an additional d6 of damage from the landing.

Plus, do not forget, Giants are godly when compared to simple one HD human peasants. Adventurers are what throws that off, which still works, because adventurers are godly compared to normal 1 HD peasants. PC's are the Heroes of Legend, that the tales tell about their great fights with dragons and Giants, and since they live through it, their tale gets told. Those who died are never remembered, they failed. Unless they succeeded to buy time for others to live by running away. Even so, they still wouldn't be as great a tale as those who ended the threat of the giants or dragons once and for all.



I forgot about that in my home brew . Kick and club type attacks can do knock back . I don't remember the damage I would have it do. I don't think it was as severe as your damage, but what is a few HD among friends

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Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:45 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
1d4 x 10' of knock back per size class difference for creatures w/ 18+ STR score is something we were playing around with 5-6 years ago. No extra damage but we did have to make checks for stun and/or staying on our feet I think it was. Then again, we weren't getting air lifted at the same time like a giant's kick would either. lol

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Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:16 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I agree with the knock back. In 3.x or Pathfinder, giants could have the feat of "Awesome Blow" which would send a character hurling through the air.
I add a bit more strength damage to my giants as well.

One of the 3.0 'weather' books had rules on deep snow. Characters were only at half move in deep snow while giants had full move. With a reach attack and the awesome blow, it wasn't a really fair (but fun) fight.


Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:30 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Giants are the classic monster to which we know STR.. and most use weapons... see other thread on DEX plus to hit and STR to damage!

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Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:57 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Giants cannot be too powerful else Mickey would have a much harder time slaughtering 7 at once.

Srsly brah. That's hardcore.


Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:56 pm
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Ungern

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
I think you are failing to imagine just how big 25' is. This image is from a different game, but it does show the scale well. That Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is the closest to 25' tall (it is 29.5' tall). Just looking at that thing is enough to know that it wouldn't have too much trouble eating that little guy at the end.


Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:39 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Giant2005 wrote:
I think you are failing to imagine just how big 25' is. This image is from a different game, but it does show the scale well. That Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is the closest to 25' tall (it is 29.5' tall). Just looking at that thing is enough to know that it wouldn't have too much trouble eating that little guy at the end.


I'm a civil engineering tech by profession and spent a lot of time surveying. 25 feet is not that much. Most full size parking spaces are between 18 and 24 feet long depending of head-in or parallel. That's just overgrown. Not giant. Then again, I also grew up watching Land of the Giants on TV too. The Friendly Giant movie is more in line with actual giants as myth shows them. And the math is against you about having no problem eating someone, unless you are talking many bites. A giant does it in a single, swallow-them-whole-without-chewing, bite. Jack and the Beanstalk, Attack of the Titans, Her Majesty's Wizard...those are giants.

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Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:04 am
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Mogrl

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Its not just a matter of height, but over all mass. Besides, maybe giants eat things like snakes do. Dislocate their jaw, have a big sack they dump you in, etc...

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:16 pm
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Ungern

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Post Re: Giants are undersized
Go0gleplex wrote:
Giant2005 wrote:
I think you are failing to imagine just how big 25' is. This image is from a different game, but it does show the scale well. That Triax X-500 Forager Battlebot is the closest to 25' tall (it is 29.5' tall). Just looking at that thing is enough to know that it wouldn't have too much trouble eating that little guy at the end.


I'm a civil engineering tech by profession and spent a lot of time surveying. 25 feet is not that much. Most full size parking spaces are between 18 and 24 feet long depending of head-in or parallel. That's just overgrown. Not giant. Then again, I also grew up watching Land of the Giants on TV too. The Friendly Giant movie is more in line with actual giants as myth shows them. And the math is against you about having no problem eating someone, unless you are talking many bites. A giant does it in a single, swallow-them-whole-without-chewing, bite. Jack and the Beanstalk, Attack of the Titans, Her Majesty's Wizard...those are giants.

No, they sure wouldn't be able to swallow a human without chewing it first. They would have to be excessively large for that.
I mean, how big do you think the biggest chunk of meat would be that you could swallow whole? Even just two inches would be pushing it and well more than most people would be willing to risk. Yet 2 inches relative to a 6' human being is 1/36th its actual size. A giant with similar proportions would have to be 216' tall to be able to each a 6' tall human with that same effort. And that was being generous on the sizing - 2 inches of meat is a considerable amount to swallow whole. Most people's upper limit would be only 1 inch, a proportionate giant would have to be 512' tall in that case.
A giant swallowing a human in a single gulp is just an unreasonable request. Even the Colossal Titan isn't big enough to safely swallow a human without chewing them first. Or at least it wouldn't be if it had human proportions (maybe its throat is proportionally larger).


Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:22 pm
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Red Cap
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
25' in height is the height of a typical 2 story home.


Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:26 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: Giants are undersized
and yet growing up I read many stories about how 'that hill is a sleeping giant' or 'kids went exploring in a pair of caves at the top of a small mountain...only to find out that the caves were the giant's nostrils'....to me that is a giant. The trolls in billy goat gruff were larger than hill giants. The Ogre of Gormly Keep was the size of a 30' tower. Yes. They are supposed to be inhumanely and fantastically big. 25' Giants and Titans just don't do it for me on the oh wow factor. But I guess when they focused on dragons, they had to nerf giants since giants kept adult dragons as house pets. :p lol

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Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 pm
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