Backstabbing During Melee

[TollTroll]

New to the rules here but here is the situation at hand; the group spills into a large room filled with goblins and a Gnoll leader. The thief wants to sneak along the columns that run down near each wall and backstab the Gnoll. Can all this be done the same round, i.e., rolling move silently, hide in shadows, and a backstab attack? What does it say in the rules? Do you do it differently?

[Fizz]

New to the rules here but here is the situation at hand; the group spills into a large room filled with goblins and a Gnoll leader. The thief wants to sneak along the columns that run down near each wall and backstab the Gnoll. Can all this be done the same round, i.e., rolling move silently, hide in shadows, and a backstab attack? What does it say in the rules? Do you do it differently?

I think all three during the same round is problematic. If he's not close enough yet, maybe he moves silently, and then hides at the next column, and keeps repeating until he's close enough. And once he's close enough, he starts the round hidden, then he moves silently and makes the backstab.

The trickier part comes after the backstab. The thief has announced himself, so how does he get re-hidden in order to get the next target? Heh.

-Fizz

[maximus]

Per the PHB, a Rogue cannot Hide and Move Silently at the same time until 3rd level. At 3rd level and beyond they have to make a move silent and conceal check at -5 and can only move at 1/4 speed.

[Fizz]

Per the PHB, a Rogue cannot Hide and Move Silently at the same time until 3rd level. At 3rd level and beyond they have to make a move silent and conceal check at -5 and can only move at 1/4 speed.

Ah yes, that's an important detail. Thanks for reminding me. So that would mean the thief could (if 3rd+ level) potentially do all three in a single round, however difficult. Getting re-hidden after the backstab attempt is still the scariest part.

-Fizz

[Grandpa]

New to the rules here but here is the situation at hand; the group spills into a large room filled with goblins and a Gnoll leader. The thief wants to sneak along the columns that run down near each wall and backstab the Gnoll. Can all this be done the same round, i.e., rolling move silently, hide in shadows, and a backstab attack? What does it say in the rules? Do you do it differently?

That depends on the distance needed to be moved. Per the rules it can be done if the Rogue can move that far AND is 3rd level or above. See penalties to silent and hide checks while moving. Sounds like a fun game.

[paladinn]

Per the PHB, a Rogue cannot Hide and Move Silently at the same time until 3rd level. At 3rd level and beyond they have to make a move silent and conceal check at -5 and can only move at 1/4 speed.

Ah yes, that's an important detail. Thanks for reminding me. So that would mean the thief could (if 3rd+ level) potentially do all three in a single round, however difficult. Getting re-hidden after the backstab attempt is still the scariest part.

-Fizz

Curious.. why does C&C have both a rogue and a thief class? They are pretty much identical. Like 95% at least.

[Rigon]

Per the PHB, a Rogue cannot Hide and Move Silently at the same time until 3rd level. At 3rd level and beyond they have to make a move silent and conceal check at -5 and can only move at 1/4 speed.

Ah yes, that's an important detail. Thanks for reminding me. So that would mean the thief could (if 3rd+ level) potentially do all three in a single round, however difficult. Getting re-hidden after the backstab attempt is still the scariest part.

-Fizz

Curious.. why does C&C have both a rogue and a thief class? They are pretty much identical. Like 95% at least.

It doesn't. Fizz is using the grognard term for rogue.

R-

[paladinn]

Per the PHB, a Rogue cannot Hide and Move Silently at the same time until 3rd level. At 3rd level and beyond they have to make a move silent and conceal check at -5 and can only move at 1/4 speed.

Ah yes, that's an important detail. Thanks for reminding me. So that would mean the thief could (if 3rd+ level) potentially do all three in a single round, however difficult. Getting re-hidden after the backstab attempt is still the scariest part.

-Fizz

Curious.. why does C&C have both a rogue and a thief class? They are pretty much identical. Like 95% at least.

It doesn't. Fizz is using the grognard term for rogue.

R-

Umm.. the Players Archive has another class called the Thief. It's virtually identical, but it's there. And they included it in the mix for expanded classes along with the Rogue.

[Rigon]

That's an optional class.

R-

[paladinn]

That's an optional class.

R-

I get that; but why was/is it needed?

[Rigon]

That's an optional class.

R-

I get that; but why was/is it needed?

It's not. That's why it's optional.

R-

[maximus]

That's an optional class.

R-

I get that; but why was/is it needed?

It's not. That's why it's optional.

R-

Yea, some of us pointed that out while they were developing that book, to no avail...

[paladinn]

I'm developing a version of the Rogue that can pick any set of 8 class abilities (i.e. "skills) from a list and not just the "thief skills." So it goes from being "Thief" to "Rogue." Think of abilities like those of assassins, acrobats, some ranger skills, etc. The 8 that you pick become your class abilities. In addition to backstab, sneak attack, etc.

Tinkering is fun

[maximus]

I'm developing a version of the Rogue that can pick any set of 8 class abilities (i.e. "skills) from a list and not just the "thief skills." So it goes from being "Thief" to "Rogue." Think of abilities like those of assassins, acrobats, some ranger skills, etc. The 8 that you pick become your class abilities. In addition to backstab, sneak attack, etc.

Tinkering is fun

I like that idea. My impression of a "Rogue" is sort of a thief/fighter hybrid. A thief should be more thiefy.

[paladinn]

I'm developing a version of the Rogue that can pick any set of 8 class abilities (i.e. "skills) from a list and not just the "thief skills." So it goes from being "Thief" to "Rogue." Think of abilities like those of assassins, acrobats, some ranger skills, etc. The 8 that you pick become your class abilities. In addition to backstab, sneak attack, etc.

Tinkering is fun

I like that idea. My impression of a "Rogue" is sort of a thief/fighter hybrid. A thief should be more thiefy.

Here is my list (so far) of "Rogue Skills"/Class Abilities. They were gleaned mostly from the various "rogue-ish" classes in PHB, Players' Archive, etc:
Climb
Decipher
Hide
Listen
Silence
Locks
Traps
Pilfer (PickPocket)
CaseTarget
Disguise
Poison
DangerSense
Tumbling?
Signaling
Taunt?
Escape
Balance
Leap
Dodge
Track?
Survival?

If a player wants a straight-up thief, s/he can make a thief. If s/he wants something a little different, go for it.

Are there any that should be added or removed?

[Captain_K]

Without worrying about rules, movement etc. I like to give the thief the chance. It takes so long to set up and it's their big thing, work to let it happen.

[JediOre]

The trickier part comes after the backstab. The thief has announced himself, so how does he get re-hidden in order to get the next target? Heh.

-Fizz

Back in my AD&D days, my players always had an answer for how to get the thief back into hiding and prepare for going after another target. The magic-user would light up the room with either pyrotechnics, continual light, a fireball, or a lightening bolt. All eyes are on the big flashy spells and the thief is gone.

My current gang in C&C has a different approach. As this group is more missile based they start pin cushioning the critter/villain that got stabbed in the back or one near by, which often provides cover as everyone starts ducking for cover at that point.

The backstab is often the opening attack, if they can manage it.

[jdizzy001]

I was reading in a carcass crawler zine for OSE which discussed adjudication of back stab. Their approach was quite liberal. If the rogue can physically get behind the baddy, give them the bonus, no rolling needed. The reason behind such a shocking (to me) approach was that combat in and of itself is messy and distracting. Someone actively fighting for their life is going to be focused on what’s in front of them. We’d like to think we’d have a 360 focus but even in a wrestling match I can tell you, if someone snuck up behind me, I wouldn’t have noticed as long as my primary opponent was in front of me. We could argue exceptions on a case by case basis but I’ve started erring on the side of awarding the bonus rather than asking for justification to use it.

[DM_Curt]

I was reading in a carcass crawler zine for OSE which discussed adjudication of back stab. Their approach was quite liberal. If the rogue can physically get behind the baddy, give them the bonus, no rolling needed. The reason behind such a shocking (to me) approach was that combat in and of itself is messy and distracting. Someone actively fighting for their life is going to be focused on what’s in front of them. We’d like to think we’d have a 360 focus but even in a wrestling match I can tell you, if someone snuck up behind me, I wouldn’t have noticed as long as my primary opponent was in front of me. We could argue exceptions on a case by case basis but I’ve started erring on the side of awarding the bonus rather than asking for justification to use it.

I like this. In too many AD&D games was the Thief character pretty much shut down by the DM and his party members. The party members would howl "Never split the party!" if the Thief tried to either scout ahead (making Move Silently moot) or get into a position to start the combat by striking an important target first. The DMs would often, IMO, insist that "No enemy would let you get behind them in combat!", negating Back Stab.
In a party with both these conditions, the Thief was relegated to a close-range trap detector, a lock picker and a sub-par archer who enters combat behind the party.
Not a terribly fun thing to play, but the last or 2nd-to-last person to the table would play one because "We need a Thief!" if someone else got wrangled into playing the heal-bot.

YMMV, of course.

[Captain_K]

Thief/acrobat/assassin/ninja you got laid out above. Careful, see what 8 everyone will pick. Try it with your whole party make them quickly pick and see where they head. 89% of the time I bet the same 6 or seven show up.

Back to back stab, first one should be easiest, second and so forth harder. What u allow the thief do you allow the assassin?