Players and Monster Manual Stats?

[Joe]

Except for the reason of preparing to run a game, can anyone tell me a good reason why players would read and memorize monster stats?

Yeah we all did it back in 6th grade...granted.

Now that we are grown ups, is there any reason but for metagaming, why players have any business with their noses shoved in any Monster Manual?

It gets to the point that I hate stating the name of the monster because then the discussion just turns to metagaming the monsters abilities.

Then it dawns on me that the stats are being repeated back from memorization from players that have never ran a game.

What gives?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

[Go0gleplex]

Tactics. Always know your enemy(s).

For the less than common critters, simply give them a description of the critter, not a name. This may not fool all of them, but it definitely keeps more of them guessing.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Joe]

Must be a lot of well read players out there...crickets...

GP: know your enemy out of character sounds like metagaming.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

[serleran]

First, the cover says it is for whatever game the player plays in, so it must be a game aid or product. Naturally, the inclination is "ooooh, I need to read this. It will make my game better."

Second, a book like Monsters and Treasure has the "unfortunate" word Treasure... which just piques interest three-fold.

Third, some players like to cheat.

Fourth, some players want to DM but never get the chance. Maybe they think they'll be good at it, or just want to see what its like... or maybe they're disgruntled with the current game and want to run their own. Doesn't matter.

Fifth, they might read about something and want to find out about the fuss. Why does it matter if X and Y and blah blah but Z is not an X yet it gets Y's thing. Forums encourage this sort of "spoilage."

And countless other reasons. Every person who reads it does it for their own reason. Maybe they just waned to see some art. Maybe they wanted to compare to a previous version. Maybe they wanted to do it to piss you off.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Go0gleplex]

What can I say. Some folks just don't enjoy the thrill of surprises. There is a lot of meta-gaming that happens really. Just a lot of it is less pronounced and more subtle.

I know I remember a lot of stats simply because I make so many (like 95%) of my own adventures for my group(s) in the past. I do make an effort to not let it show in my character though...but when picking spells out for the "day" or as a cleric...you do tend to go for the optimal set vs said opponent. (meta-gaming)

It is just one of those things ya learn to live and deal with...*shrug*
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Sir Osis of Liver]

This is something that the creative CK can take plenty of steps to make player knowledge less of a factor. The old Mongoose "Slayer's Guide" series gives some great insights as to how to spice up the "classics." You can also track down old issues of Dragon (either hard copies or the CD-ROM set) for ideas. I think The Crusader also has ideas. There are lots of places where inspiration can be found.

[Pale Writer]

I'm an odd duck and really read "monster" books for the fluff and don't memorize the stats. (Making certain types of monster books useless to me as a player).

Basically, is helps me get a feel for a world or campaign as I learn what kind of creatures were used to populate it.

I also read zoological material for fun, so there might be something there.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

As a gamer, I love reading game material. Whether it's stuff on how to sit on one side of a screen or the other side of the screen doesn't matter to me. That's how, I think, the guys in my game group approach things as well. The point I was trying to make was simply that as a game master, one of the things I have to do to make the game entertaining for my players is to do my homework well enough to be able to make a seemingly mundane encounter suddenly much more challenging. One thing I will give points to 4e for is the way it made kobolds (just as an example) dangerous again. You have to think, not just as a creator of encounters on paper, but even more so like a tactician. Give some of these mundane creatures some intelligence and cunning, then watch out.

Or, you could just convert Nilbogs to C&C from the old Fiend Folio and watch the party retch as they dump all of their healing potions and burn all their CLW spells on a bunch of goblins.

[Pale Writer]

Hmmm... nope, not going to give 4E credit for that. There were articles about how to do that in all other editions (via Dragon Magazine or DM tool books). 4E just made it look like you got more monsters by adding adjectives.

[Go0gleplex]

Kobolds have always been one of the most dangerous critters in my game...or rather, any critter with a modicum of intelligence that can effect strategy. 4e didn't make them dangerous...it probably just lead DMs by the nose into the obvious.

You go into a kobold lair you have to remember you're on their killing ground...and then watch your ass accordingly.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I saw more emphasis placed on tactics (perhaps because of the board-game/MMO nature of the game) in 4e than I did in 2e or 3.x. Yes, there are plenty of articles/books out there that were important in previous incarnations of the game. 3.x paid more attention to customization of the monsters by adding classes. 4e, however, forced you (for better or worse) to think tactically. IMHO, it made what was a mundane encounter (especially for those kids who broke into the game after "Tucker's Kobolds" was published in Dragon) and didn't necessarily have access to those resources.