It's a little disappointing to me if that's true. I would think the 2 communities would work well together since the fan bases are primarily First Edition driven. I am developing a product line of modules and trying to guage the marketplace and target audience. I had thought that making them compatible with "you-know-what" that it would also appeal to gamers of C&C. Now I'm not so sure.
The thing that really confuses me is that behind-the-scenes there is (or was) a relationship. At least one of the C&C books was edited by Matthew Finch and he also worked on the other system.
Style is a many splendored thing.
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gideon_thorne
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http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=259 No more need be said.tomjscott wrote:
I would think the 2 communities would work well together since the fan bases are primarily First Edition driven.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
That thread is seriously whacked! They sure seem like a bunch of haters.
And how can you claim to be "old school" and diss Gary with the same breath? Not only is he the Founder of the hobby, from what I've heard he's a dang nice guy as well.
Here's the impression I've gotten from the C&C community and spirit so far: positive, inclusive, friendly. I could scarcely praise it more!
When you see a group of "haters", it's usually about something ideological. "Old School" or "1st Edition" shouldn't be an ideology - it should be about having fun with a more freewheeling and adaptable ruleset. It's a hobby for Heaven's sake! What else does it need to be besides fun and interesting?
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"I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"
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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."
And how can you claim to be "old school" and diss Gary with the same breath? Not only is he the Founder of the hobby, from what I've heard he's a dang nice guy as well.
Here's the impression I've gotten from the C&C community and spirit so far: positive, inclusive, friendly. I could scarcely praise it more!
When you see a group of "haters", it's usually about something ideological. "Old School" or "1st Edition" shouldn't be an ideology - it should be about having fun with a more freewheeling and adaptable ruleset. It's a hobby for Heaven's sake! What else does it need to be besides fun and interesting?
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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."
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gideon_thorne
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Simply put, that is the ultimate source of the contention. There are those that maintain a more rigid ideological system purity concept than others. That is the heart of the matter. Many more people just don't take a game that seriously, including the original creator. Which brings much of the contention forth.
I for one thing its purely silly. How a person plays a game, what games they play, or what rules they use are entirely a subjective matter. There's no sensable reason to dis another persons fun.
C&C was put together in an attempt to bring to the modern audience a certain style of game that many enjoyed. Mainly a system of minimalism and individual group alteration. The style was a tribute to a bygone era, the system was, in part, written so Gary (who had a final say on the look of the system) could have a familar enough vehicle to bring forth some of his long awaited module ideas, but the game also brought to the table many useful modern concepts in an attempt to bridge the, IMHO silly, edition gap.
The wide success of C&C indicates this concept works rather well in the larger gaming community who, in my experience, could care less about edition purity, but instead care more about imaginative escapism.
*smiles* One of the local game groups here consists of several OD&D playtesters, and they have much high praise for the game.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
I for one thing its purely silly. How a person plays a game, what games they play, or what rules they use are entirely a subjective matter. There's no sensable reason to dis another persons fun.
C&C was put together in an attempt to bring to the modern audience a certain style of game that many enjoyed. Mainly a system of minimalism and individual group alteration. The style was a tribute to a bygone era, the system was, in part, written so Gary (who had a final say on the look of the system) could have a familar enough vehicle to bring forth some of his long awaited module ideas, but the game also brought to the table many useful modern concepts in an attempt to bridge the, IMHO silly, edition gap.
The wide success of C&C indicates this concept works rather well in the larger gaming community who, in my experience, could care less about edition purity, but instead care more about imaginative escapism.
*smiles* One of the local game groups here consists of several OD&D playtesters, and they have much high praise for the game.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Hehe. I don't know what can be said that has not been said, but there are concerns, and instead of harping on them, we ignore them. It might be wiser to direclty address, but there are issues with that as well, so in the end, it is felt (I assume) by the mighty Trolls that such things should just be left where they belong... behind the scenes, as public debate only causes further friction, which, if you're a fan of "ye olde school" is something you should be glad to remove. If, indeed, its all about the gaming... the less friction and splintering, the better.
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Fiffergrund
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I was intensely angered by the comments in the thread linked above, but I've decided to temper my response out of respect for the community here. This is a community that is built upon respect for others and acceptance, and it should stay that way, as should the community at DF.
Having said that, I will say that I am disappointed in the Alehouse administration for allowing these sorts of personal attacks to continue. There was a gentleman's agreement some time ago where C&C topics were forbidden on the K&KA message board due to a great deal of mudslinging, character defamation, and outright slander. Apparently, though, some users of that board have taken it upon themselves to inject their bile into topics that neither warrant it, nor require it.
I have attempted to have honest discussions with several members over there over the span of many months and years, and without exception, have found that even forthright attempts to discuss our differences with candor aren't approached with the same spirit by those individuals. They have no interest in honest discussion, just an odd, self-righteous exercise in pseudo-intellectual self-m**tur**t that they must conduct behind "closed doors" and without having to answer the challenges of those who argue that they've got it all wrong. When confronted with facts, these people run from them, and demonize you for it.
However, if said individuals would like to give it another try, and approach things with a bit of intellectual honesty, I'd be willing to engage in a dialogue. That's a far cry better than taking potshots from cyberspace.
I'll even do it on their turf. If they don't like it, they can ban me again. I know they check these forums, if for nothing more than "fuel" for their fires, so we'll see just how interested these so called "experts on the old-school" are in proving their intellectual integrity, or just how frightened they are that their house of cards would simply blow over in a slight breeze.
That breeze, of course, being the realization that they keep trying to avoid with a furvor that approaches zealotry: that this is just a game.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Having said that, I will say that I am disappointed in the Alehouse administration for allowing these sorts of personal attacks to continue. There was a gentleman's agreement some time ago where C&C topics were forbidden on the K&KA message board due to a great deal of mudslinging, character defamation, and outright slander. Apparently, though, some users of that board have taken it upon themselves to inject their bile into topics that neither warrant it, nor require it.
I have attempted to have honest discussions with several members over there over the span of many months and years, and without exception, have found that even forthright attempts to discuss our differences with candor aren't approached with the same spirit by those individuals. They have no interest in honest discussion, just an odd, self-righteous exercise in pseudo-intellectual self-m**tur**t that they must conduct behind "closed doors" and without having to answer the challenges of those who argue that they've got it all wrong. When confronted with facts, these people run from them, and demonize you for it.
However, if said individuals would like to give it another try, and approach things with a bit of intellectual honesty, I'd be willing to engage in a dialogue. That's a far cry better than taking potshots from cyberspace.
I'll even do it on their turf. If they don't like it, they can ban me again. I know they check these forums, if for nothing more than "fuel" for their fires, so we'll see just how interested these so called "experts on the old-school" are in proving their intellectual integrity, or just how frightened they are that their house of cards would simply blow over in a slight breeze.
That breeze, of course, being the realization that they keep trying to avoid with a furvor that approaches zealotry: that this is just a game.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Hehe... wow.
I never read that thread before. That made me a little uncomfortable.
I'm excited about the upcoming Yggsburgh modules that they mentioned, however... definitely felt some of that old school flavor from everyone working on it, and from Gary's directives. What a great group of people to work with...
Moorcrys
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Moorcrys
I never read that thread before. That made me a little uncomfortable.
I'm excited about the upcoming Yggsburgh modules that they mentioned, however... definitely felt some of that old school flavor from everyone working on it, and from Gary's directives. What a great group of people to work with...
Moorcrys
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Moorcrys
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Fiffergrund
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Heh, just remember, according to that thread, C&C reflects those of us that worked on the game through and through, and if we're not old-school enough, any product that uses the system can't be, right?
That's what I mean when I say intellectual dishonesty. There's a serious cognitive dissonance involved here that a Doctoral candidate in psychology could probably run with.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
That's what I mean when I say intellectual dishonesty. There's a serious cognitive dissonance involved here that a Doctoral candidate in psychology could probably run with.
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Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
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gideon_thorne
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Fiffergrund wrote:
There's a serious cognitive dissonance involved here that a Doctoral candidate in psychology could probably run with.
Ya gotta laugh, mate, it causes more damage that way. 8)
Course, the trouble with these threads is that they quickly come to dominate the discussions. I figure it shouldn't go on for more than a day. Enough of a time for folks to have a look, and comment if they wish, but then move on to more relavent matter.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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Breakdaddy
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That discussion was pretty funny. Are we supposed to be insulted by being called C-Tards by an unimaginative oaf that cant even come up with an original insult (3-tards, anyone?). I'm underwhelmed. Besides, it's one kid on that board, and he can be loud, obnoxious, and ignorant if he wants to, it's his dime. I don't feel one way or the other about OSRC, I think it's a great idea, but I realize there are questions as to its ultimate legality and viability. Those questions arent for me to answer or bother contemplating. I have happily integrated some of the OSRC stuff into my own adventure in the making and am slightly irritated at seeing the amount of vitriol being tossed from both sides. I'd prefer people not say anything at all rather than spout pejoratives about either system. Evidently, that's just me.
"If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
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Fiffergrund
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I do laugh when I stop to think about it, or whenever I spend some time in the K&KA "game theory" forum just to kill some time.
I can remember a couple of posters over there complaining that I rambled on and on in my arguments, yet there's an entire forum of someone basically enjoying nothing more than "hearing" himself talk.
I've always said these guys could spend more time working on material and playing games than complaining about others, and they'd be a lot more happy. Some of the folks over there seem to take that to heart, while some seem hopelessly mired in living vicariously through edition wars.
As if "my method is better than yours" means anything in cyberspace, and when the people seated around my table are having a good time. It's sad, really, that some cannot see how much energy that sort of spite wastes.
I'm working on another module for C&C, a related campaign setting to be included in installments with the Domesday Book, Society enrollments, Crusader articles, moderating two forums, and numerous other projects. All of the great people I know in this forum and at DF spend our time doing things to have fun and not worrying about the other guy.
If the folks at the Alehouse want to act this way, fine...just leave us out of it, I say.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
I can remember a couple of posters over there complaining that I rambled on and on in my arguments, yet there's an entire forum of someone basically enjoying nothing more than "hearing" himself talk.
I've always said these guys could spend more time working on material and playing games than complaining about others, and they'd be a lot more happy. Some of the folks over there seem to take that to heart, while some seem hopelessly mired in living vicariously through edition wars.
As if "my method is better than yours" means anything in cyberspace, and when the people seated around my table are having a good time. It's sad, really, that some cannot see how much energy that sort of spite wastes.
I'm working on another module for C&C, a related campaign setting to be included in installments with the Domesday Book, Society enrollments, Crusader articles, moderating two forums, and numerous other projects. All of the great people I know in this forum and at DF spend our time doing things to have fun and not worrying about the other guy.
If the folks at the Alehouse want to act this way, fine...just leave us out of it, I say.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
It was certainly not my intention to spark any debates over the 2 communities. I have no interest in flaming either side. I was only interested in whether or not C&C players are interested in using published material that is compatible with "you-know-what." I'm not taking a side. As a publisher I was curious if my target audience encompassed a broader range of players.
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gideon_thorne
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Fiffergrund wrote:
I'm working on another module for C&C, a related campaign setting to be included in installments with the Domesday Book, Society enrollments, Crusader articles, moderating two forums, and numerous other projects. All of the great people I know in this forum and at DF spend our time doing things to have fun and not worrying about the other guy.
And ya write some good stuff too. Btw.. does my thief need to give that 'key', from Fingers back ?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Quote:
As a publisher I was curious if my target audience encompassed a broader range of players.
There are some here who use non-C&C material, going from 1E to d20, and even other game systems as well. Myself, I use anything that intrigues me. I've not looked at the "unmentionable" since the pre-release, but have not formed an opinion one way or the other, except that I have no use for the rules (I'm not going to publish anything with them) and am content to play a hybrid game as I've been doing since the first day I started roleplaying.
A read-through of the discussions here will indicate as much, with people asking for "conversion" ideas from one thing to another, or whatnot, using C&C as the core base.
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Fiffergrund
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tomjscott wrote:
It was certainly not my intention to spark any debates over the 2 communities. I have no interest in flaming either side. I was only interested in whether or not C&C players are interested in using published material that is compatible with "you-know-what." I'm not taking a side. As a publisher I was curious if my target audience encompassed a broader range of players.
No worries, Tom. I think it could easily be said that C&C players would be interested, and it was a legitimate question. You might take a look at the Dragonsfoot forums, particularly for C&C and Other RPGs, as DF's policy on the topic is different than this site.
You're also more than welcome to post here. I apologize if my rant (or any other posts) made you feel uncomfortable, and I hope you stick around.
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Breakdaddy
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tomjscott wrote:
It was certainly not my intention to spark any debates over the 2 communities. I have no interest in flaming either side. I was only interested in whether or not C&C players are interested in using published material that is compatible with "you-know-what." I'm not taking a side. As a publisher I was curious if my target audience encompassed a broader range of players.
Nah, Im pretty sure none if this is pointed at you. Its mainly pointed at the thread Pete linked to. As to your query, I would say that if you published something worthwhile for either system you would likely have at least *some* interested parties/customers from both sides. I would happily use and convert stuff from 1e or 1e compatible systems over to C&C. in fact, I have done this before with great success. I also try to get my hands on everything that the Trolls produce for C&C and have enjoyed it almost invariably. My biggest wishlist item is to have Joe Goodman put a C&C conversion index in each and every one of his new Dungeon Crawl Classics modules, those things rule. If I could have Necromancer, Goodman, and TLG constantly cranking out quality material for C&C I would never need to play another fantasy RPG again (OK, Im a liar, I will NEVER quit playing WFRP, but everything ELSE...)
"If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
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Fiffergrund
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gideon_thorne wrote:
And ya write some good stuff too. Btw.. does my thief need to give that 'key', from Fingers back ?
Nah, but it probably won't be of much use elsewhere.
Thanks for the compliment.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Fiffergrund wrote:
No worries, Tom. I think it could easily be said that C&C players would be interested, and it was a legitimate question. You might take a look at the Dragonsfoot forums, particularly for C&C and Other RPGs, as DF's policy on the topic is different than this site.
You're also more than welcome to post here. I apologize if my rant (or any other posts) made you feel uncomfortable, and I hope you stick around.
Thanks.
tomjscott wrote:
It was certainly not my intention to spark any debates over the 2 communities. I have no interest in flaming either side. I was only interested in whether or not C&C players are interested in using published material that is compatible with "you-know-what." I'm not taking a side. As a publisher I was curious if my target audience encompassed a broader range of players.
If its good I'll buy it. Even when its from a guy I have personal problem with. I have bought Shrooms and will be getting Red Mausoleum. Their good and work very well with C&C. Thats all I need or want.
If I am correctly reading/interpreting Gideons allusion and you already wrote a certain C&C module than I will definitely buy your adventure.
As for the other community, I am surprised by that, and think they would be a well served community to permanently ban certain people.
however, they used their recent "SPAM purge" to knock me out of their rolls, so I'm not going there anymore.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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gideon_thorne
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serleran wrote:
Umm, Treebore, Peter is refering to the module written by Fiffergrund.
Exactly. A very nifty adventure I got to playtest in before it was published. I'd like to finish it off one day, we'll see.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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Fiffergrund
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Interestingly enough, I'm not as happy with "Fingers" as I could be. I've been giving it a lot of thought in preparation for the next module. I won't bore anyone here with my ponderings, though
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
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gideon_thorne
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Fiffergrund wrote:
Interestingly enough, I'm not as happy with "Fingers" as I could be. I've been giving it a lot of thought in preparation for the next module. I won't bore anyone here with my ponderings, though
*chuckles* The sign of a true writer, or any creative person really. "Ill make the next one better."
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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Troll Lord
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Hey folks, I'm not going to get into any of this...not even going to visit that thread as I have Wicked Cauldron to wrap up...but (and I'll make an official posting later) I'm not going to be so kind as Fiff as to lock a thread. I'll delete posts that get out of hand and boot posters off that insult other people, their games, their ideologies etc etc. The one common theme here on the TLG message boards is that everyone heartily agrees that Blondie is the best musician the world has ever seen.
Steve
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He who sits on the elephants back
Castle and Crusade Society
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Steve
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He who sits on the elephants back
Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com
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He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games
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Omote
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Troll Lord wrote:
The one common theme here on the TLG message boards is that everyone heartily agrees that Blondie is the best musician the world has ever seen.
Oh... uh.... OH. I will straight, stab a troll with my zweihander! Ludacris is the best vocal artist in the world. Blondie ranks right behind Jim Neighbors as far as I'm concerned.
Call me.
......................................Omote
FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
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Troll Lord
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Omote wrote:
Oh... uh.... OH. I will straight, stab a troll with my zweihander! Ludacris is the best vocal artist in the world. Blondie ranks right behind Jim Neighbors as far as I'm concerned.
Call me.
......................................Omote
FPQ
BLASPHEMY!!! DIE NOW AND CURSE IN VAIN!
Steve
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He who sits on the elephants back
Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com
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He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games
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Greg Ellis
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Fiffergrund wrote:
Interestingly enough, I'm not as happy with "Fingers" as I could be.
Commiserations, Fiff.
Been there, done that, and I know what you're going through. We've all gone through dry spells, I think.
But try to get out and meet some people, socialize, have some fun.
You'll meet someone eventually...