Troll Lord Games

I was made aware of some complaints, very valid complaints, about how it is cheaper to buy the perfect bound or digest CKG for less than you can get the PDF for.

So I hope that was just a big dumb mental error due to mental fatigue and that you guys will lower the PDF price accordingly very soon.

That, or just pull the PDF down.

Hey Treebore,

The pricing for the pdf version comes with a lifetime's worth of free updates. When newer, updated versions, whether through errata, corrections, grammar, or just added material, comes out then we supply an instant file to the customer. Previously we've always charged for 2nd printings, 3rd printings, etc. The electronic market, being a different animal allows us to give you, the consumer, a constantly updated file.

This text is at the bottom of the RPGNow CKG page, I suppose I should move it up.

NOTE: The electronic version of the CKG comes with a lifetime's worth of FREE updates. Anytime we update the file, with corrections, modifications, or errata we'll send you an updated file. If there is a 2nd printing, your purchase today allows you a FREE updated file.

Thanks,
Steve

post script: The digest version price is a little skewed because that book costs almost as much as the perfect bound to make due to paper wastage.

All I can tell you is that I was given a link to RPG.net where a half dozen people or so are very upset about the PDF price, and then AFTER it as pointed out that the Perfect Bound and digest sized could be bought for less than the PDF they got even nastier, so I think you may want to rethink this.

Here is the link to the thread I was made aware of:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=562207

Heck, they even have a second one going:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=562272

Troll Lord wrote:Hey Treebore,

The pricing for the pdf version comes with a lifetime's worth of free updates. When newer, updated versions, whether through errata, corrections, grammar, or just added material, comes out then we supply an instant file to the customer. Previously we've always charged for 2nd printings, 3rd printings, etc. The electronic market, being a different animal allows us to give you, the consumer, a constantly updated file.

This text is at the bottom of the RPGNow CKG page, I suppose I should move it up.

NOTE: The electronic version of the CKG comes with a lifetime's worth of FREE updates. Anytime we update the file, with corrections, modifications, or errata we'll send you an updated file. If there is a 2nd printing, your purchase today allows you a FREE updated file.

Thanks,
Steve

post script: The digest version price is a little skewed because that book costs almost as much as the perfect bound to make due to paper wastage.

Maybe someone should make RPG.net aware of this. In the thread this exact thing was brought up.

I'd do it myself But I left and refuse to go back after I was stalked by an Admin over there.

Given the size of the font, I wouldn't want to give my eyesight the strain of reading a digest version of the CKG. However I wasn't aware that the perfect bound version was less expensive. I know some publishers will price PDFs differently and I don't really have a problem with the price but I'm not sure about the notion of updates factoring into a higher price if it's just a print revision as opposed to a new edition. That in itself bothered me a bit but it didn't stop me from purchasing ALL the revisions for the PHB and M&T.

Personally, I was glad it was made available as soon as it was but I have every confidence that things will work themselves out.

I receive updates to PDF's I own, and I own over 6 Gig worth of them, all the time, for free.

What are you upset about Treebore? It's all moot anyway. Didn't you see his other post where he's already talking about 5th ed?

I can see RPG.NET is still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners. Jeez, let TLG run their company they way they think is best. Like Moriarty, I think all of these things will work themselves out in the end. I will assume that if there are any haterz in that RPG.NET link you posted, they pretty much hated TLG/C&C any way so it doesn't make any sense to complain about prices of a product you're never going to buy anyway.

I'm sure the correct parties have looked into the matter critically, and will form the best decision for them. Part of me hopes that TLG doesn't cave in to the whiners anyway.

What is more important is that C&C fans are on the cusp of getting one of the greatest books in the whole C&C line up!

~O

Omote wrote:I can see RPG.NET is still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners. Jeez, let TLG run their company they way they think is best. Like Moriarty, I think all of these things will work themselves out in the end. I will assume that if there are any haterz in that RPG.NET link you posted, they pretty much hated TLG/C&C any way so it doesn't make any sense to complain about prices of a product you're never going to buy anyway.

I'm sure the correct parties have looked into the matter critically, and will form the best decision for them. Part of me hopes that TLG doesn't cave in to the whiners anyway.

What is more important is that C&C fans are on the cusp of getting one of the greatest books in the whole C&C line up!

~O

I really dont like the attack that RPGnet is "still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners." I am doing none of that and a good many people there are just expressing an opinion. I want the PDF of the CKG but when many games I buy now coming with the PDF for free with purchase of the hardcopy 32 dollars is way too expensive. I love C&C but I will wait until it goes on sale.

Also there is a lot of love for C&C at RPGnet. And you are right TLG can run their business any way they want just like I can choose not to buy something I find overpriced.

Actually if you carefully read the threads most of them are actually favorable towards C&C. Only that Brady guy is the douche he normally seems to always be. I remember him from before I got banned. So he hasn't changed much in the years since then.

Anyways, I am going to be blunt.

TLG does not compete in a vacuum. The VAST majority of TLG's competition has been giving me free updates to their books for years when I bought the PDF. Usually it is errata. Heck, several companies even gave me a free upgrade when they did completely new editions, and I proved I bought a hard copy of the new edition.

So what does that mean? In the grand scheme of things it is not a "value added" feature by TLG, its just TLG still playing catch up to what has been standard practice with PDF's for years.

Plus it is a "rule", or at the very least, a strong expectation that the PDF will ALWAYS be cheaper than any print version the book is offered in. So people being upset about this is also no surprise, to me at least.

As those threads illustrate, most C&C consumers do NOT know the Trolls on a personal basis, and apparently do not even follow them on FB or Twitter, etc... So they are offering up the opinions they are forming based on what they are seeing. Which is they are seeing some RPG company being bass ackwards and offering up a PDF for more than they offer up a print version of it.

A very valid complaint considering what TLG's market competitors do.

So to put it bluntly, but still with all the love I have for TLG and company, it would be very wise to lower that PDF price to at most 75% of the lowest print price it is offered at. That is what a significant number of the competition does. Hell, even Mongoose does 60%.

Otherwise people like those on rpg.net are going to continue to be justified in being upset about it. Worst of all, give TLG more negative press. So if you do decide to follow my advice, be very public about it, go to those threads and post the new lower price, and give an apology for having it at such a high price to begin with, and thank your customers for pointing this mistake out, etc...

Leaving this as is will be a big marketing mistake.

dadiceguy wrote:

Omote wrote:I can see RPG.NET is still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners. Jeez, let TLG run their company they way they think is best. Like Moriarty, I think all of these things will work themselves out in the end. I will assume that if there are any haterz in that RPG.NET link you posted, they pretty much hated TLG/C&C any way so it doesn't make any sense to complain about prices of a product you're never going to buy anyway.

I'm sure the correct parties have looked into the matter critically, and will form the best decision for them. Part of me hopes that TLG doesn't cave in to the whiners anyway.

What is more important is that C&C fans are on the cusp of getting one of the greatest books in the whole C&C line up!

~O

I really dont like the attack that RPGnet is "still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners." I am doing none of that and a good many people there are just expressing an opinion. I want the PDF of the CKG but when many games I buy now coming with the PDF for free with purchase of the hardcopy 32 dollars is way too expensive. I love C&C but I will wait until it goes on sale.

Also there is a lot of love for C&C at RPGnet. And you are right TLG can run their business any way they want just like I can choose not to buy something I find overpriced.

Agreed, as the post I wrote while you posted fully clarifies.

nightstorm wrote:What are you upset about Treebore? It's all moot anyway. Didn't you see his other post where he's already talking about 5th ed?

Please don't mistake 5th printing (print run) for a new edition. That's how unfounded rumors get started.

Go0gleplex wrote:

nightstorm wrote:What are you upset about Treebore? It's all moot anyway. Didn't you see his other post where he's already talking about 5th ed?

Please don't mistake 5th printing (print run) for a new edition. That's how unfounded rumors get started.

Bah. I've already pre-pre ordered the PHB (2ed), CKG2, M&T2 coming out soooooon. Catch up suckas...

L.S.

dadiceguy wrote:I really dont like the attack that RPGnet is "still a haven for whiners, bitchers, and moaners." I am doing none of that and a good many people there are just expressing an opinion.

So I read those the various threads over there. One of them started off quite like I described. I'm not sure who those posters are over there, but none of them started off as constructive criticism on TLG's pricing. Some of those early posts were RPGnet haters doing what they do, which was vitriol. It seems like some more level headed thoughts came into that discussion as it goes on. To me it looked like the haterZ stormed in, complained (sure, that is an opinion even phrased in such a way - but lame.), and stormed out.

~O

Yea, there are a few Summer's Eve personalities mucking things up.

Well, yes - RPGnet does have a load of C&C fans . . many of us here, have been there for years.

But, there used to be a huge number of those types that Omote mentions + the usual amount of troublemakers and otherwise TLG/C&C bashers.

I stopped going there years ago, but can only conclude that it's worse than before.

That said, the trend of the thread does seem to indicate that many do NOT understand the premise of what TLG is doing with regard to the PDF. It might be a great thing for some and not so good for others. But the long worthless threads (even if many posts are well presented), which are so typical of that place ~ are just not productive, IMO

I expect there will be several upgraded print versions of the CKG and can see what the Trolls are doing here.

Anyway, I hope people don't get too worked up about that forum and what's going on, this forum is the place to sensibly discuss C&C/TLG and their products.

I know Skywalker, who started the bigger of the two threads, is a fan of C&C.

There is a very positive thread about C&C in the other game forum where Skywalker posted this:

"C&C is my favourite version of D&D along with 4e. However, I don't see it as a light version of 4e. It is more a modern version of 1e."

There are a couple real idiots over there for sure. Seem bent and determined to not just slam the CKG, the pdf, but also TLG in general. Got to agree though, the pdf is a bit pricey.

There is a similar thread on therpgsite.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=19495

I see the biggest problem in that a few people yell loudly against a product and it tends to sway many of the masses. I'd hate for C&C to get a bad reputation over this.

finarvyn wrote: I see the biggest problem in that a few people yell loudly against a product and it tends to sway many of the masses. I'd hate for C&C to get a bad reputation over this.

Someone said, "it's always harder to fight a negative than support a positive."

So far I've seen accusations of incompetence, maliciousness, arrogance, and behind the times re: electronic media. It's rather sad really.

It never matters.

Bowing to please only puts one in a position to be knocked over, decapitated, fondled, or otherwise offended.

Standing with a spine renders one immobile and stoic.

Do what is right as you know it. Damn the rest.

Its interesting to note that, in all the posting back and forth going on, that more than a few of the defenders of TLG are publishers themselves.

I like reading other sites! I can haz links?

Free updates to a pdf product is considered 'standard' by many purchasers of pdfs. "Free lifetime updates" won't be seen as an added feature by many buyers who expect this even if they only played $10 for the pdf.

Breakdaddy wrote:I like reading other sites! I can haz links?

Page one of this thread, and some here as well:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10890

Birthright wrote:Free updates to a pdf product is considered 'standard' by many purchasers of pdfs. "Free lifetime updates" won't be seen as an added feature by many buyers who expect this even if they only played $10 for the pdf.

SJgames e23 gives unlimited downloads.

I haven't been to e23 in about 5 years, I just went back there yesterday and my account still has all my downloads available. I might have differences with the SJgames staff, but that is pretty cool.

Omote wrote: I will assume that if there are any haterz in that RPG.NET link you posted, they pretty much hated TLG/C&C any way so it doesn't make any sense to complain about prices of a product you're never going to buy anyway.

I'm new to C&C, I've orderd the books, but I haven't recieved them yet. Still, you will probably label me as a hater, because I think the PDFs are way, way overpriced.

And by labeling all critics as hater, you coose the easy way out. Hate is bad, right? So, haters, are bad, and it doesn't matter what they say, they are "haters, whiners, bitchers, and moaners" and are therefore WRONG! You don't have to read what they say, no need to argue, right?

Wrong.

Fans like you are a bane to any company. Enough fans like you and the company gets a bad reputation. Look, not everyone thinks in black and white, and not everyone who critizied something is an enemy. You may think about it.

Of course it does seem to selling just fine. It's 3rd on rpgnow and was 2nd yesterday. I think the window to change the price has closed, after so many sales they would also have to do something for those who were willing to buy at the original price. At this point they just have to let it ride, perhaps after the hardback is released they can re-visit but.... It's no longer "black and white", now it's complicated shades of gray.

-Mike