C&C, the healing game?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:51 pm

I have now seen at least 4 who have returned to d20. I guess for some C&C is just a way to heal. To recover from the burn out and to regain the creative enrgy that d20 sucked out of them.

I can definitely see that. C&C has reminded me of a lot of gaming principles that I "lost" in the fog of 3E, and as a result, if I were to return to d20 it would definitely be handled very differently by me.

However, 3E/d20 is what sucked my love for roleplaying out of me to begin with. So to me going back is like daring the devil to take my soul again. I'm not going to give the devil that chance. I have my soul and I'm staying where I know that I can keep it and have fun too.

Good luck to those of you who may be reading this and are going back to "play with the devil" again. I hope you have grown strong and wise enough to keep it from getting you again.

My wisdom tells me to stay with C&C.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:57 pm

Many people who roleplay seek different venues to do such, experimenting or having one-offs. Nothing is wrong with that, and I encourage it, in fact. There is no way to know what you enjoy, and how best to play, for yourself, than to try different methods... Fortunately, C&C is cheap enough, and modular enough to allow people to use it as the baseline, and add what they "need" from other systems. Sometimes, I think, they don't always see that, and that's alright too. Roleplaying is not a gestapo. Its a means to have fun and if C&C has provided that, even for one session, than its served its purpose, and I know I'm proud to have been involved with that.

Though, it does suck to hear "yeah, well, I'd rather play d20." I don't really understand the draw of d20.... maybe its the "there's a rule for everything so I don't have to feel like I'm unfair if I make a ruling and the players don't agree." Eh, well, whatever. Play what you like. C&C will be there when the other games break you.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:20 pm

serleran wrote:
I don't really understand the draw of d20.... maybe its the "there's a rule for everything so I don't have to feel like I'm unfair if I make a ruling and the players don't agree."

That's it, I'm tellin' ya. Some people would rather have a rule for everything and just be a computer analyzing the situation with numbers, and then spitting out the answer. And hey, that's cool man. 8) If you don't like the party then you don't have to be here. Go with whatever you like and what makes you happy. To me it's akin to video games: go ahead and enjoy your big blow-'em-up extravaganza with super, high-def graphics and 5.1 surround sound. Mario and Luigi will be waiting for you when you're ready to have some fun. Smoke and mirrors man. Smoke and mirrors.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:42 pm

Its all about fun. People pick up games, some stay, some move on to other things that they feel they would get more enjoyment out of.

Certainly, C&C isnt for everyone, but it's hoped that the system can serve as something of a bridgework to give folks a bit of common ground to start from.

I've played all kinds of systems, from the simple to the elaborate, and the only thing that really made an over all difference in the long run was the people I gamed with.

As a personal preference, I find less over all 'structure' easier for my intuitive mindset to grasp, but I can play with numbers with the best of em.

In the end though, its a social activity, not to be taken too seriously, and put forth in a method that gives the most enjoyment for all concerned.

Doesn't matter which of a thousand ways one chooses to rattle dice as long as the fundamental goal is the same.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:51 pm

I think what we're seeing is the wheat and chaff seperations that come in new systems. There are those of us that swear by C&C and see TLG as the saviors of the rules light game. There are those that like the system and there are those that don't.

IMNSHO we will loose some crusaders. No big deal since those of us that want to see the system continue are still doing so. Take those of us who have websites or other things dedicated to the game. Raven's Keep is by no means a hopping place but I have something to further the crusade. Some may think my own creations suck butt juice. But at least I am sharing them.

Yeah C&C may heal some to go back to the black hole of d20. But for many of us, myself included, it kept me from dropping out of gaming and relit a fire for the hobby that hasn't come close to burning out.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:43 pm

I am very much in the same "camp" as you Julian. I was burned out, ready to take a nice long hiatus from gaming, maybe even never come back.

I agree d20 is cool, there are very neat things about it. Thats why I am willing to play. But DMing it still brings on immediate negative feelings just thinking about it.

So if I am ever going to be willing to DM 3E again I apparently need to spend a good bit more time healing. At least I can read thru the stuff and appreciate the good ideas the designers do come up with. So at least I have regained the ability to enjoy that again, instead of thinking how the "power/munchkin" combo from these new rules can ruin the next campaign.

One thing C&C has made sure I will do if I eve return to DMing 3E. Simple Core Rules only. Anything beyond that will be used only if I want it used in my campaign. If any players just "have" to use some kind of combo or rules set, it will be their turn to get behind the screen.

Korgoth · Post by **Korgoth** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:47 pm

I was really excited about D20/3E at first. But I think it squeezes the life out of gaming. That's not a prejudice I started with, but a view I developed.

Gaming only works well when it is about the imagination. 3E doesn't take away your imagination or anything like that. But its design philosophy is... "stricture-based". Everything is balanced with everything else, and exactly what you can and cannot do is spelled out in precise jargon.

It's a totally different approach to gaming than the "old school". In the "new school" or 3E approach, at some point a designer on the "Complete Guide To Galleon-borne Sailors With a First Name Beginning With Letters A-G" project might invent a feat called "Knife-Biter": "A character with Knife-Biter may hold a knife in his teeth while using the Climb skill; he may use Quick Draw on that knife regardless of whether he has that feat, and may Quick Draw it as a response to an enemy entering his square for the purposes of making an Attack of Opportunity." But the problem with Knife-Biter is now you have to have the appropriate feat to be able to do that ability... the DM may feel constrained from allowing someone to do that without the feat, because somebody else took the feat or is planning on taking it (as a stepping stone to the "Avast! Shiver Me Timbers!" feat) and our DM doesn't want to bone that player by essentially ruling that he has wasted (or will have to waste) a feat slot by just making that a standard ability.

All of these precisely-defined powers and abilities don't help my imagination, they just rope it in and force it down a particular path. Because if I step off that path, I mess up someone's feat tree or otherwise shatter the delicate balance of the 3E ruleset. Plus, once you have to have all of those feats to be able to do those actions, monster statblocks become enormous.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:57 pm

Korgoth wrote:
Plus, once you have to have all of those feats to be able to do those actions, monster statblocks become enormous.

Brrr. I hated that. Like my C&C dungeons much better. One maybe two lines of stats and the descrip of the room. I did notice in a recent trip to a gamestore that I saw a new medieval RPG that claims to use just a singel d20 and seemed pretty light on the rules.

Damned if I could remember the name but I would like to check it out later. But maybe C&C sparked off a movement to go back to this style of gaming and if so that would definately heal the d20 cancer.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:00 pm

Treebore wrote:
I am very much in the same "camp" as you Julian. I was burned out, ready to take a nice long hiatus from gaming, maybe even never come back.

I agree d20 is cool, there are very neat things about it. Thats why I am willing to play. But DMing it still brings on immediate negative feelings just thinking about it.

So if I am ever going to be willing to DM 3E again I apparently need to spend a good bit more time healing. At least I can read thru the stuff and appreciate the good ideas the designers do come up with. So at least I have regained the ability to enjoy that again, instead of thinking how the "power/munchkin" combo from these new rules can ruin the next campaign.

One thing C&C has made sure I will do if I eve return to DMing 3E. Simple Core Rules only. Anything beyond that will be used only if I want it used in my campaign. If any players just "have" to use some kind of combo or rules set, it will be their turn to get behind the screen.

I Could play in the right conditions. Say a veteran rpger that knows rules are just guidelines and would cap some munchy powercreep before it began. Also mainly core material.

But running 3e again? Nope not in this life.

Plus I have said before TLG has spoiled me as far as priceing goes.
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:07 pm

Treebore wrote:
I am very much in the same "camp" as you Julian. I was burned out, ready to take a nice long hiatus from gaming, maybe even never come back.

Same here! C&C came along at the right time and now i'm loving the DMing aspect once again.

Treebore wrote:
One thing C&C has made sure I will do if I eve return to DMing 3E. Simple Core Rules only.

I tried that before C&C and it failed miserably. The problem with doing this is that all the players I had were 3.5 experts so when I would dump a rule or god forbid - change it, I had nothing but grief. With C&C they don't do that.

Korgoth wrote:
Gaming only works well when it is about the imagination. 3E doesn't take away your imagination or anything like that. But its design philosophy is... "stricture-based". Everything is balanced with everything else, and exactly what you can and cannot do is spelled out in precise jargon.

3.5 is a mass collection of rules for which many people feel they need a PHD or something to master. C&C is so basic and allows freedom of choice. Some like complications, some don't. I'm the one who prefers things pretty much handed to me in as simple terminology as possible. Am I inferior in any way? I think not! To those 3.5 ''experts' I am because I use an inferior product. I couldn't care less what they think because I've proven time and time again with my own players and at the local game store over the past 6 months that my imagination as a DM/CK far superpass any gaming experience they coulc have gotten out of a 3hour long 3.5 battle.

So... is C&C a healing game? For me and some of my players it is. It's not the only thing we use, but it is the basis from which I begin play using many D20 / WOTC products. That is the beauty of C&C and I am fully healed !

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:27 am

Same here, I was about to give up on gaming all together, until I came across C&C. I have found the more I play C&C the more I dislike 3E. Even though 3E had some good ideas that I brought with me to to C&C, the feel of the game was all wromg IMHO.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:12 am

Maliki wrote:
Same here, I was about to give up on gaming all together, until I came across C&C. I have found the more I play C&C the more I dislike 3E. Even though 3E had some good ideas that I brought with me to to C&C, the feel of the game was all wromg IMHO.

IMO 3e was fine when Peter Adkinson was in charge. The early stuff that he helped forge was very nicely done and stayed true to his promises of keeping Greyhawk in the central view of things.

After he left the game was spearheaded by the suits and their puppet senior designer Andy Collins. The game changed then and is no where near what it could have been.

If, and a big if, I ran it again it would be core 3e and the class splats as well as teh few books I know Adkinson helped on. Anything after that era would most definately not be used.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:30 am

My running it is still a long way off. Just reading all your posts mentioning a return to DMing 3E gave me nausea.

Plus my most honest answer to the question, "Will you ever DM 3E again?" is still a resounding no. The only reason I even entertain the possibility is that I know things change over time. So maybe time will allow me to go back. But I sure don't "see it" in my future right now.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:56 am

I'd DM whatever game my peoples wanted me to run. Now, that said, I'd impose limits to keep my fun possible, too. d20 can be a working system... its all the extraneous fluffy mechanics that make it annoying, much like Rifts, in fact.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:09 am

Well, some things would definitely have to go even with core only. Such as AoO, sunder, and grapple.

No PrC's.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:17 am

My only 3.X exposure is limited and much different from many of you. I only played the "new" D&D basic game a couple of years ago and it was really excellent. Basically a rules lite game with minis and dungeon tiles. I bought it at the time after being away from the game for ages. It went well and I was impressed.

Imagine my chagrin and complete amazement when I went from that intro to have a look at the full PH. No friggin' way says I! Hehe, nothing against 3.X, but thinking of how well the intro game was setup and then to see the full rulebook was a rude awakening.

Actually, I think the basic games (while I really like them) are a serious disservice to new fans. Maybe it's a marketing tool, but it could really turn off future gamers.

Anywho, after looking at the 3.X PH, is when I decided to open the C&C boxed set and the rest is history. . .
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:21 am

Eh, well, PrCs aren't the problem... per se, nor are feats, either. What the major issue I have with the design of D&D is the attitude it engenders in the player that they are somehow entitled to X and Y and Z and ABC because its all in the Player's Handbook, or some sundry option book designed "for them." Add this to the general weakening and "emasculation" of effects such as magical aging or level loss (two major things greatly diminished in d20) and the game goes to a "you must learn to be a better player" to a "that's ok Bub, we have a save-point back at the way station. Use your scroll of town portal, and we'll be ok."

Sure, d20 can have elements added, and removed, or modified to codify its various interlocked systems into a cohesive and gelled mold... but, why should I bother when I have a game that does most what I want, and its far easier to teach to new players?

If there is a 4E, I sincerely hope its a step backwards. Miniature gaming might be the answer for D&D. At least... it would be like going home.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:50 am

*wry smile* One thing I find hard to understand is when someone doesn't like a given game, but they keep talking about it.

I guess I'm abnormal. If I don't like something I simply avoid it and don't bring it up.

My sig line, in fact, was inspired by some very vehement, and oftimes illogical, critics of the C&C game

I find it more effective to tout the things I like without bringing down that which I don't.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:52 am

If we didn't talk about what we don't like, there'd be nothing to talk about.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:53 am

serleran wrote:
If we didn't talk about what we don't like, there'd be nothing to talk about.

Then by the logic of this statment, folks must hate everything.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:54 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*wry smile* One thing I find hard to understand is when someone doesn't like a given game, but they keep talking about it.

I guess I'm abnormal. If I don't like something I simply avoid it and don't bring it up.

My sig line, in fact, was inspired by some very vehement, and oftimes illogical, critics of the C&C game

I find it more effective to tout the things I like without bringing down that which I don't.

In all honesty I agree with Serl. D20 and 3e are fine if certain limits are met. C&C just fits my needs better as a player, CK and hoby designer. Something 3e majorly lacks is friendliness to those who want to design their own stuff.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:58 am

I'm not saying I hate 3E, I'm saying I hate DMing it. I'll play it, but I won't run it as far as I can tell at this point in my life.

C&C is much better suited to what I want to do with a game.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:37 am

I have to say that given a choice, I would rather run a C&C game than a 3.x game -- probably because it fits my style much better and most likely because I started off running AD&D almost a couple of decades ago.

3.x had potential, and given the right person behind the screen, still does. There is some good stuff out there that has a d20 stamp on it -- although much of it is not from WOTC
At this point, and considering the WOTC trend, in the unlikely event that I would run a game, I'd use the Core Set plus a few things from the Unearthed Arcana. However, I much prefer the SIEGE system and with C&C in hand, I don't think that'll *ever* happen. Depending on who's running the game, I might be coaxed into playing D&D 3.x though.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:54 pm

The SIEGE engine blows d20 out of the water in terms of flexibility. The beauty and selling point is that it can do anything d20 does with less hassle and better results.

Wanna do something similar to a cleave or power attack? It's possible. Wanna tray to mimic another class ability? Easy. Wanna do something completly out of left field? Done.

With the 12/18 bases everything is easier to adjucate and fatser to run and much easier to do on the fly. I just finished writing teh first of three adventures for an arc and it took me half the time to write than a D20 adventure.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:45 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Wanna do something similar to a cleave or power attack? It's possible. Wanna tray to mimic another class ability? Easy. Wanna do something completly out of left field? Done.

Something that might be useful, an over all guide in turning the specific feats into more abstract difficulty levels under the seige engine.

Want to try whirlwind attack? You get X bennies so its X modifier to the characters attack roll. Something along those lines.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:03 pm

That's easy to do. Could have it worked out in about an hour or so, if I sat down to do it. Already have the "metamagic feats" done, and use them in my own games. No reason to bother with item creation, as those are covered already.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:29 am

I'm currently playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game online via PBP and it's been great so far. From what I've seen so far, the ruleset hardly makes an appearance and of course that's true for other editions as well in an online game.

So I guess what I'm sayin' is, a 3.X game could conceivably be run rules lite if the DM wishes to do it that way (not that I would try it).

But the game goes so smoothly that I swear either the DM is ignoring tons of rules (which is probably the case, because it's an online game) or he's using C&C secretly!
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:38 am

Rhuvein wrote:
I'm currently playing in a 3.5 Ravenloft game online via PBP and it's been great so far. From what I've seen so far, the ruleset hardly makes an appearance and of course that's true for other editions as well in an online game.

So I guess what I'm sayin' is, a 3.X game could conceivably be run rules lite if the DM wishes to do it that way (not that I would try it).

But the game goes so smoothly that I swear either the DM is ignoring tons of rules (which is probably the case, because it's an online game) or he's using C&C secretly!

I vote for 2. Heh, dirty little gaming secret #346: 9 out of 10 WOTC designers secretly play C&C since they know it is a superior system....
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:01 am

I couldn't keep a C&C group together. After our heavily modifed D20 campaign is over, I'm returning to 1e AD&D. I like C&C, but the siege engine just doesn't do it for me. C&C was my gateway back to AD&D, and for that I am glad.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:18 am

Well, its good that it led you back to something you believe you'll be happy with.

I am curious as to why the SIEGE mechanic didn't work for you. Especially since I think it is the most awesome thing about C&C as a system. So I am naturally curious as to why you have such a different view about it. Meaning I am not "throwing down the gauntlet" or anything, I just want to know why our opinions appear to be "at opposite ends".

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C&C, the healing game?

C&C, the healing game?

Re: C&C, the healing game?