Troll Lord Games

I've just ordered Swords & Wizardry (Complete Rules) and I am just waiting for it to come. I researched some comparing OSRIC, LL and S&W. I've never bought any retro clones before (As, I own OD&D.) but decided to opt for a more clear representation of OD&D. (More for players than for me. I figure the amount of explaining I'd have to teach them to unravel the gordian knot of OD&D it'd just be easier to get a cleaned up version.)

I never realized that OSRIC was a cleaned up version of AD&D so that was immediately discarded as an option. Labyrinth Lord seems close to what I'm looking for but the reviews for S&W seemed better and more passionate.

Really, the only reason I'm even buying S&W is to maybe entice the D&D 4e players to want to try and go back to their roots of D&D and see what rpging was like before all else. Having a S&W "Monster Manual" certainly helps their cause. From what I've seen there is no GM's screens so I guess I'll just have to whip up my own. (Which Is fine, I like doing stuff like that.)

So, kind'a looking forward to it. Maybe I'll find some decent people to play with and actually have a decent group to develop and play with.

My personal pref for using S&W is going straight White Box, but you cats are likely going to have loads of fun either way. I wish I still had time for gaming, so you're one up on me right there.

Still waiting on my Delving Deeper from Brave Halfling. Don't know who I'll play it with, but I'm looking forward to it.

Breakdaddy wrote:My personal pref for using S&W is going straight White Box, but you cats are likely going to have loads of fun either way. I wish I still had time for gaming, so you're one up on me right there.

I thought of just the White Box but I assumed that what was in the white box is in the Complete Rules that are just there once I wish to expand the game further.

Am I wrong in this?

If so... D'Oh!

Just to be clear I'll present this to the game store in my area, which I know absolutely no one. I haven't gamed in more than 5 years (Honestly I haven't kept track.) and would like to go back to something I loved so much. It is just the hobby has changed so much, it kind of has left me behind. Hoping this will rekindle some of it anyway.

Aergraith wrote:Still waiting on my Delving Deeper from Brave Halfling. Don't know who I'll play it with, but I'm looking forward to it.

Just checked it out on the website. Go figure, this is exactly what I was looking for. Oh, well I'll wait and see about S&W then wait to hear some reviews of Delving Deeper to see if I should get that to.

I've become a major FRPG book whore in the past few months, and I have pretty much all the major clones. Basic Fantasy RPG and Dark Dungeons just showed up about a week ago, in fact.

Sir Ironsides, I think you'll really like S&W. Let me ask, have you looked over the free PDFs for S&W, LL, and BFRPG before making your decision? If so, I'm curious what made you land on your final choice.

For me, I simply like ALL of them. I am running a 5-player LL with AEC campaign right now, and the group LOVES it. The AEC adds a lot of AD&D elements into an otherwise OD&D-like ruleset. Overall, we're very pleased with the incredibly light ruleset. It's amazing to watch the players (2 of whom have only played 3.5/Pathfinder and 3 of whom are *brand new* to role playing) become absorbed in their characters and what's going on around them, rather than in the "rules." The book rarely gets opened...

I'd play an S&W, LL (with or w/o AEC), OSRIC, BFRPG, or Dark Dungeons game any day of the week! I hope you enjoy it.

redwullf wrote:Sir Ironsides, I think you'll really like S&W. Let me ask, have you looked over the free PDFs for S&W, LL, and BFRPG before making your decision? If so, I'm curious what made you land on your final choice.

It was mostly reviews I depended on, I guess the tie-breaker was the fact that a poster here is Brave Halfling Games and I don't mind supporting someone who posts here. ( Though there really wasn't a tie-breaker )

Actually, Brave Halfling no longer sells the S&W WhiteBox. That's why they are developing Delving Deeper. When I wrote WhiteBox I started with the "complete" rules set, trimmed out the stuff that wasn't in the original booklets, then added a few things that I felt fit the OD&D philosophy more. WhiteBox takes more of a "toolbox" approach while "complete" is more of a "here are the rules" set.

Honestly, all of the choices you listed are good ones. Labyrinth Lords is more like B/X D&D, S&W is more like OD&D, OSRIC is more like AD&D. I own copies of all of them and used to play them all, now I focus on OD&D and C&C.

To me, the advantage of a clone is that it's in print and actively supported. C&C fits this criteria. While C&C isn't a "clone" game it has a nice blend of AD&D and 3E, and this has made my players pretty happy. They like C&C over all of the clones.

finarvyn wrote:Honestly, all of the choices you listed are good ones. Labyrinth Lords is more like B/X D&D, S&W is more like OD&D, OSRIC is more like AD&D. I own copies of all of them and used to play them all, now I focus on OD&D and C&C.

And, Blacky the Blackball's Dark Dungeons is a very fine treatment of BECMI (via the D&D RC), complete with the "I" part. The more I thumb through this book, the more I wish to play a few sessions of it.

redwullf wrote:

finarvyn wrote:Honestly, all of the choices you listed are good ones. Labyrinth Lords is more like B/X D&D, S&W is more like OD&D, OSRIC is more like AD&D. I own copies of all of them and used to play them all, now I focus on OD&D and C&C.

And, Blacky the Blackball's Dark Dungeons is a very fine treatment of BECMI (via the D&D RC), complete with the "I" part. The more I thumb through this book, the more I wish to play a few sessions of it.

Good point. I'd forgotten about Dark Dungeons! I don't do much with Immortals campaigns, however. Heck, I hardly ever let players reach double-digits in levels.

finarvyn wrote:Good point. I'd forgotten about Dark Dungeons! I don't do much with Immortals campaigns, however. Heck, I hardly ever let players reach double-digits in levels.

Well, the Immortals section is there in the (unlikely) event a group ever gets that far. With a reasonable DM, just getting through the first 36 levels of mortal play should take years - if it's ever achieved at all. From that perspective, the Immortals section is interesting, but not interesting enough for me to actually consider ever running a group at such a level. Just making it to name level should represent many, many game hours, with oodles of adventures and stories for the players to log.

So, the Immortals rules aside, Dark Dungeons is a wonderful (IMO) treatment on the system. Players familiar with B/X, BECMI, and Rules Cyclopedia play should find DD a solid effort and worthy of some excellent Old School RPGing.

Having said that, S&W (and S&W Complete if you want to ramp things up) is just about on par with Basic Fantasy RPG (BFRPG), which is also a very fine system.

Sir Ironside: Finarvyn beat me to the punch on the answer. This basic toolkit approach was what initially drew me to white box over the "full version" of S&W. I hope that Delving Deeper sticks with the white box philosophy!

The White Box S&W is still available, just not the nifty boxed version from Brave Halfling: link

Frost wrote:The White Box S&W is still available, just not the nifty boxed version from Brave Halfling: link

I'm still kicking myself for not getting the nifty whitebox! I kept putting it off, putting off, see where that got me.

-Mike

I ended up getting the Swords & Wizardry: White Box Referee Edition. Basically it an offer to send you enough of the Player and Spell booklets for like 4 players. Didn't all fit in the box as is, but great stuff and all of it was the updated 3rd printing of the booklets so a lot of the errata was fixed.

If you're kicking yourself for not getting S&W:WB, then don't miss out on the Delving Deeper box set. John at Brave Halfling does a great job with all the stuff he puts out (same goes for Arcana Creations).

Just got S&W and I gotta say this is what I was looking for.

The way I figure it, is I introduce a new group to this type of book then ask them if they really want to go back to their roots for which I'd be inclined to purchase the Delving Deep boxed set and really show them old-school gaming.

I'm very happy.

If you're willing to spend a little, Ironside, invest in the Tome of Horrors complete. It's well worth it, I'd say. I got it for my C&C game and it looks great.

Lord D - Did you get the Patherfinder version or the S&W version?

Lord Dynel wrote:If you're willing to spend a little, Ironside, invest in the Tome of Horrors complete. It's well worth it, I'd say. I got it for my C&C game and it looks great.

Yeesh... $99.99 is it worth the price tag?

Sir Ironside wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:If you're willing to spend a little, Ironside, invest in the Tome of Horrors complete. It's well worth it, I'd say. I got it for my C&C game and it looks great.

Yeesh... $99.99 is it worth the price tag?

Yes, that price puts it into the ridiculous category. However, the pdf is ~$30 from what a person told me. STILL, very steep for a monster supplement.

Arduin wrote:

Sir Ironside wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:If you're willing to spend a little, Ironside, invest in the Tome of Horrors complete. It's well worth it, I'd say. I got it for my C&C game and it looks great.

Yeesh... $99.99 is it worth the price tag?

Yes, that price puts it into the ridiculous category. However, the pdf is ~$30 from what a person told me. STILL, very steep for a monster supplement.

I just read it is actually an amalgamation of 3 books into one, which clocks in at around 1000 pages. When looking at it that way, the price isn't so bad and probably on par if you had to buy the 3 books separate.

1000 pages seem a bit much making it hard to handle. I wonder why the got away from the 3 books. You'd figure people would be more inclined to buy 3 books piece-meal rather than shell-out $99.99. It just sounds like they are going to make less $$$ with this format. (Though it does say that they sold out of the Paizo books, so what do I know.)

Sir Ironside wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Sir Ironside wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:If you're willing to spend a little, Ironside, invest in the Tome of Horrors complete. It's well worth it, I'd say. I got it for my C&C game and it looks great.

Yeesh... $99.99 is it worth the price tag?

Yes, that price puts it into the ridiculous category. However, the pdf is ~$30 from what a person told me. STILL, very steep for a monster supplement.

I just read it is actually an amalgamation of 3 books into one, which clocks in at around 1000 pages. When looking at it that way, the price isn't so bad and probably on par if you had to buy the 3 books separate.

1000 pages seem a bit much making it hard to handle. I wonder why the got away from the 3 books. You'd figure people would be more inclined to buy 3 books piece-meal rather than shell-out $99.99. It just sounds like they are going to make less $$$ with this format. (Though it does say that they sold out of the Paizo books, so what do I know.)

Aye, it's about 800 pages of actual content. The book is MASSIVE, but it's one impressive piece of work. I haven't seen the S&W version, but the monsters have been beautifully updated for Pathfinder in my version. It's by far my favorite book in the collection, but I've always been a sucker for monster books.