d20 SRD?

[Treebore]

I think the biggest problem with 3E is that it is hard for the DM to truly feel in control. Yeah, you can talk the talk, and walk the walk, but when the players are given so much power candy and you have to tell them no 1,000's of times in order to keep the game within the realm of power you want it to be, it gets a bit wearing.

If I could do like I did in 2E (say no to the option books) as easily in 3E it would be a different story. It would also help if I didn't like so many of the ideas presented, and wish I had the ability to weave it all together and have it stay something I would like.

So it is just too overwhelming, and just proved to me that simple is good. Very, very good. Most importantly I am happy running games again. So simple is fantastic.

[Tadhg]

Traveller wrote:
But I really don't need to say much more about how pathetic d20 Fantasy has become. I'll just let Pun-Pun tell the tale.

LOL - Nut pun, etc. I'll just say "Oi" and "Oy"!
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[Traveller]

Metathiax wrote:
Traveller, I think that to say that you are an Old-Schooler is somewhat of an understatement. You should be considered to be a Venerable-Schooler while I would be kind of a Middle-Aged-Schooler (I started gaming in the 2E "era", so I guess this makes me a video game polluted mind... ) according to my dumb ass classification system... Hahemm...I think it's getting late...

*simply laughs*

Oh yes...at 5am it was too late. I think we're hopeless.

Actually, my setup is OD&D, the earliest edition of the game, plus the things I wanted to use from its supplements. So, for races I have dwarf, elf, half-elf, halfling, and human (no gnomes or half-orcs). Although I do have the provision regarding characters being of any race, as long as it started out small. My Castles & Crusades setup mimics my OD&D setup only in regards to classes. Each game has nine classes (cleric, druid, figher, ranger, paladin, magic-user/wizard, illusionist, thief/rogue, assassin).

No disrespect taken, but while the D&D game can work however you want it to work, what I mean by "supposed to work" is that the people in question understood the author's intent in making a specific rule. A lot of people played the game as they desired because they didn't understand why things were there. For example, demi-human limits. People hate them, yet the Gary's intent in having them be so low in both OD&D and AD&D was this: since the expectation was that players would retire their characters around level 9, the low level limits for demi-humans (between 4th and 7th level depending on race) weren't all that low. It wasn't until Supplement I: Greyhawk that you had the option for demi-humans to have unlimited advancement as thieves.

If WotC had actually listened to the people who understood the author's intent regarding the game, THEY would have created Castles & Crusades, not Troll Lord Games. Instead, they went the route of adding needless complexity to a game that at its core, could be distilled down into about 150 pages (my OD&D rule set came out at 144 pages, a conscious design decision). I disagree though that cloning and cleaning up 1st Edition wouldn't have revived things, because THAT for the most part is what people wanted. They wanted 1st or 2d Edition feel with updated game mechanics. WotC DIDN'T DELIVER. If they had, there'd be little need for Castles & Crusades.

I agree that the present generation of gamers will go on to computer games, rather than spend time reading books. That in itself is a sad testimony to things, because reading should be fun and entertaining, not a chore.
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[Metathiax]

Quote:
Actually, my setup is OD&D, the earliest edition of the game, plus the things I wanted to use from its supplements.

Venerable indeed...

Quote:
So, for races I have dwarf, elf, half-elf, halfling, and human (no gnomes or half-orcs).

I should've of guessed the Tolkienesque selection...

Quote:
If WotC had actually listened to the people who understood the author's intent regarding the game, THEY would have created Castles & Crusades, not Troll Lord Games. Instead, they went the route of adding needless complexity to a game that at its core, could be distilled down into about 150 pages (my OD&D rule set came out at 144 pages, a conscious design decision). I disagree though that cloning and cleaning up 1st Edition wouldn't have revived things, because THAT for the most part is what people wanted. They wanted 1st or 2d Edition feel with updated game mechanics. WotC DIDN'T DELIVER. If they had, there'd be little need for Castles & Crusades.

With some perspective (and sleep!), I'm starting to think that you may be right. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need (and don't want) my RPGs to be "realistic" (I'll play Battletech if I want a simulation) but I want them to be fast, simple, flexible, balanced and coherent (I know, I'm asking for much ). I just hate getting a heavy-handed "you can't because it is as it is" answer to questions like "why can't my 16 INT half-orc be a wizard?". RPGs that are too archetype-driven actually end up restricting role-playing. If one of my players doesn't mind getting a negative INT adjustment (my version of the race does...) for his half-orc wizard (that's certainly not min/maxing or power gaming), I'll let him and this can lead to the birth of a great character instead of always having the "classic" elf wizard. I also like the mechanical gratifications (they don't need to be earth-shattering) that come with having a larger (not largest...) selection of races, classes and combat manoeuvers (without going to the extremes of 3E D&D, obviously...). That's the reason why I left D&D for other RPGs in the first place.

I wasn't interested in having to choose between restrictive rules (2E which I attempted to make a 2.5E version of, but ended up pretty much rewriting the whole thing from scratch) or tactical Diablo-like rules (3E). Then, C&C came out as an interesting compromise with its great SIEGE engine and modular rules that give me a whole lot of customizing freedom without having to rewrite or break the whole thing. For me, old-school feel = but old-school rules = . I think that a lot of the old-schoolers who fiercely defend some of those archaic rules do so more out of nostalgia for their system than reason...

Although, by looking back on some 1E stuff I recently acquired out of curiousity (never actually played it), I must say that I wish I would've started playing D&D with the 1E instead of the 2E. I think that a lot of the important topics that made the 1E so flavorful (although, admittedly, pretty clunky rules-wise; not that the 2E is much better though...) have been savagely edited out from the 2E without any kind of replacements. I actually understood the 2E a lot better after reading the 1E core books. This also made me get the Rules Cyclopedia which is a great fantasy RPG in itself (except for a few issues). I would love to get my hands on the OD&D core rules though. I wonder why RPGnow sells pdfs of the supplements but not of the core rules?

Quote:
I agree that the present generation of gamers will go on to computer games, rather than spend time reading books. That in itself is a sad testimony to things, because reading should be fun and entertaining, not a chore.

Regarding this, I find most of the threads on the WotC boards to be awfully similar to character builds discussions for computer RPGs. So much of what's written is exclusively about obscure classes, powers and feats (there is hardly any incentive to play most of the core classes anymore) that I don't even bother reading any of it.

I think I'm now going stop telling about my life's story...
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[Traveller]

I can actually answer why RPG Now sells only the supplements. The guys who did the PDFs never got to those three books. Since the program was stopped, those books will likely never be scanned.

You'll have to search other places to get a copy of the core rules.
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[Korgoth]

I also think that WOTC dropped the ball essentially by not making C&C. 3E would have been alot better if they had just stuck to the basics:

- rationalized AC

- added back in things removed like monks, assassins, etc.

- kept the bard (& maybe added Sorcerer, as well as a divine spontaneous caster

- perhaps went with the unified XP progression / free multiclassing

Everything else they could have kept as standard D&D. Then include a bunch of options: a lite skills system, critical hits, etc.

I think that would ultimately have been much better.
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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."

[gideon_thorne]

Traveller wrote:
That in itself is a sad testimony to things, because reading should be fun and entertaining, not a chore.

Hear hear!
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Peter Bradley

[miller6]

Kudos everyone on a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. I've really enjoyed reading through it.

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

[Metathiax]

Quote:
I can actually answer why RPG Now sells only the supplements. The guys who did the PDFs never got to those three books. Since the program was stopped, those books will likely never be scanned.

You'll have to search other places to get a copy of the core rules.

That's unfortunate, getting the paper OD&D core rules in acceptable condition is probably very expensive...

Quote:
I agree that the present generation of gamers will go on to computer games, rather than spend time reading books. That in itself is a sad testimony to things, because reading should be fun and entertaining, not a chore.

I think an interesting parallel could be drawn between the fate suffered by the comic book industry and what may happen to the PnP RPG market since the two hobbies are kind of related and often share the same target consumers. The comic industry lost around 90% of its value since the early 90s while comic book characters are popular as ever in electronic medias like movies and video games. Hopefully, the RPG industry won't share the same fate and be almost solely represented by the likes of D&D online and the Neverwinter Nights series...

EDIT: I do find these games to be a lot of fun though...
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

[robertsconley]

I been gaming since the late 70's so I been through a couple of cycles of this stuff. From my point of view there is more diversity of ideas and content since when I first starting gaming. At lot of it uses mechanics based on D20 but a fair amount doesn't. Plus the D20 explosion brought in a lot of new people in at once where before it was a slow steady trickle.

Despite the lack of quality control, the D20 OGL was overall good thing because it allowed people to express legitimately their own ideas in print, and on the web. In essence it recreated some of what happened in the 70's but put it all on a legal footing.

I believe that if WoTC doesn't put the next edition under the OGL then we will see a surge toward creating or going with one of the d20 based rpgs like C&C or True 20.

Rob Conley

[Omote]

Hay, IMO the OGL was a boon for the RPG industry, and ultimately ended up an integral part of my fav RPG of all time. Kudos.

.....................................Omote

FPQ
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[Breakdaddy]

Metathiax wrote:
That's unfortunate, getting the paper OD&D core rules in acceptable condition is probably very expensive...

Yeah Ive been told my copy is worth 100 bucks or more and its only in "good" condition.

[Traveller]

Acaeum Rulebook Price Guide
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NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.