Troll Lord Games

Okay, I'm going to sound like a OGL-retard here but what's up with this site (it does look legitimate)? They just give out the entire D&D system for free on the web? What's in it for WotC? It has converted itself into a charitable organization or what? Pardon my ignorance but I've been out of fantasy gaming since the release of the 3ed until I recently got into C&C, therefore explaining my looking as if I just came out of a cave or something...
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Thats what the SRD and the OGL are all about. C&C, as well as True 20 (from Green Ronin), Necromancer game products, Goodman Games and several others use the OGL (open game licence) to produce their various products.

The main difference between what is considered a 'd20' product' and an 'OGL' product (like C&C) is in how the OGL is applied.

Necromancer Games, for instance, makes products that require the use of the core D&D books fromm WOTC, and as such they need to put the 'd20' logo on these products.

OGL games like C&C operate as an independent system and so have a fair bit more lassitude.

The idea behind the OGL, as I understand it, was to give other publishers the opportunity to create a variety of games and products under a single, similar, core game mechanic. The ideal was to open up the D&D game to a spread of creative influences.

There are folks who can explain it better, but the core idea has been expressed as the above.

Or just read this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d2 ... /20040123c
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Peter Bradley

The SRD's is what makes the OGL possible.

When WOTC revamped D&D and created version 3.x, they also created a System Reference Document which permitted anyone to make and publish a stuff containing material that was included in the SRD. That is why you can have an independent publisher create a monster book or a module using FEATS, skills, or classes and respective descriptions WITHOUT having to ask WOTC for every little thing; the Open Gaming License gives you permission to use what's in the SRD for those purposes.

You'll notice that there are certain things which are NOT in the SRD. For example, the ever so popular Beholder. The Beholder has been retained by WOTC and this is why you do not find one in the M&T book for C&C. In order to use *that* content, you require specific permission from WOTC. However, a Rust Monster *can* be used (and was with the M&T) freely.

Significant books dealing with rules changes may see some of their material released in a SRD document of its own in order for some of this material to be used in content developed outside of WOTC.

I think that about sums it up. Did I miss anything guys?

Moriarty the Red
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Thanks for these enlightening answers...although I'm still surprised that WotC does not sell the licences to do so. That's what I initially thought was the case for C&C's OGL.
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Metathiax wrote:
Thanks for these enlightening answers...although I'm still surprised that WotC does not sell the licences to do so. That's what I initially thought was the case for C&C's OGL.

*smiles* The whole SRD/OGL thing is generally not thought of as a wize move in most circles, but it doesn't stop those same people from taking advantage of the thing.
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Peter Bradley

I think that the original idea was along the lines of: we get everybody playing our game and release profitable mainstream products that a lot of D&Ders will want to consume (like books that expand class powers... the feat bloat that drives me nutzo). Then the little guys (Goodman Games and Green Ronin are perfect examples) produce niche products (like adventure modules, which have a small market, or D20 Ancient Hebrews [Testament, a pretty cool product actually] that will have a limited appeal).

Thus WOTC gets to rake in the dough from the broad-appeal, "official" stuff while the support base of the game system becomes very strong - whatever a player's "niche interest is" there will probably be something to cater to it. Even though most people wouldn't think to run D&D as a "Heroes of Israel" game where you go on missions for Joshua, there might be some interest in that generated by Green Ronin's book. So people might not even be playing with WOTC books, but they're using the WOTC engine rather than some other. Which means that even if you haven't sold these guys on your other stuff yet, chances are you will eventually. And instead of the market being split between different systems, everyone plays basically the same system (roll a D20 vs. a target number) with some tweaks.

That's the theory as I understand it, anyway.
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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."

IMO that was the idea but they didn't bank on the more creative companies out there to make their own games. C&C shows very well what can be done with the SRD and how it can be tweaked to make a game similar to the one WOTC killed. I don't think WOTC fathomed that games would be made where not a single WOTC product would be needed to run it nor that it would be sucessful.
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*smiles* The whole SRD/OGL thing is generally not thought of as a wize move in most circles, but it doesn't stop those same people from taking advantage of the thing.

If not wise, it is unarguably a bold move...

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I think that the original idea was along the lines of: we get everybody playing our game and release profitable mainstream products that a lot of D&Ders will want to consume (like books that expand class powers... the feat bloat that drives me nutzo). Then the little guys (Goodman Games and Green Ronin are perfect examples) produce niche products (like adventure modules, which have a small market, or D20 Ancient Hebrews [Testament, a pretty cool product actually] that will have a limited appeal).

That's fair enough but I think this whole SRD/OGL is getting out of control. For every quality product like C&C, there seems to be an endless flow of "The Complete Short Sword Handbook"-grade products (like some of those pdfs available on RPGnow) filled with useless ultraspecialized classes, feats and all... It now makes more sense to me since the licence is free but do people actually buy that crap? If they do, they've got way to much money to spare... Even the WotC products often seem more and more inclined to add truck-loads of this stuff but I guess this is often the fate of an "aging" product line. I must admit, though, that there seems to be a "Magic"-like incentive of "collect them all and be a more powerful gamer" to this strategy.
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Heh, WOTC slams TSR for the number of books they produced for 2e but look at the stuff they have put out for 3e and you'll see a 'pot/kettle' effect. I'm waiting for 'Races of Dirt' to come out...
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Metathiax wrote:
That's fair enough but I think this whole SRD/OGL is getting out of control. For every quality product like C&C, there seems to be an endless flow of "The Complete Short Sword Handbook"-grade products (like some of those pdfs available on RPGnow) filled with useless ultraspecialized classes, feats and all... It now makes more sense to me since the licence is free but do people actually buy that crap? If they do, they've got way to much money to spare... Even the WotC products often seem more and more inclined to add truck-loads of this stuff but I guess this is often the fate of an "aging" product line. I must admit, though, that there seems to be a "Magic"-like incentive of "collect them all and be a more powerful gamer" to this strategy.

Thats the main criticism. No quality control. Add to the fact that companies like Green Ronin used the OGL like TLG did to make their own system. I believe Ryan Dancey, the author of the OGL, did forsee companies doing just that though.

The systems are unified via a similar die rolling method, however. So in that, the idea succeeded.
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Peter Bradley

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I'm waiting for 'Races of Dirt' to come out...

Some variant races really are funny, here's an uninspired (to say the least) sample from the SRD...

Environmental Racial Variants

Aquatic Races

Aquatic Dwarves

Aquatic Elves

Aquatic Gnomes

Aquatic Goblins

Aquatic Half-Elves

Aquatic Half-Orcs

Aquatic Halflings

Aquatic Humans

Aquatic Kobolds

Aquatic Orcs

...and more of the same goes on for Arctic Races, Desert Races, Jungle Races, etc.

At least they didn't create an Aquatic Fire Elemental...
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Julian Grimm wrote:
Heh, WOTC slams TSR for the number of books they produced for 2e but look at the stuff they have put out for 3e and you'll see a 'pot/kettle' effect.

Too true. It's definitely the equivalent of producing expansion-type material for the installed customer base of a PC game. It's bound to happen regardless of who has the brand. I came of age during the 2e era so it didn't seem too unusual for me at the time, of course I just never bought all of those optional books except for the Arms and Equipment and Catacombs Guides. Both of which are still awesome books. In fact, at the last C&C session I ran I brought the Arms and Equipment guide and one of my players spent the first twenty minutes just looking fondly through the material ("Ahh! I used to love this book."). So fondly, in fact, that we've discussed running a 2e session for the hell of it.

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of course I just never bought all of those optional books except for the Arms and Equipment and Catacombs Guides.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Catacombs Guide. I may be getting the pdf from RPGnow one of these days. Anyone knows if the related Creative Campaigning and Complete Book of Villains are also any good? Could they be of use for a C&C campaign?
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Even though I'm not a business/marketing guy, I find this sort of thing tremendously interesting sometimes.

I guess part of the original notion was that you would have a bunch of small-timers producing things like "Complete Guide to Cross-Dressing Elven Fighter-Bards With First Names Beginning With J Created on Tuesday Who Favor Beige Garments Vol. 38", but that most of those small-timers would quickly implode due to the sillyness of their product. However, if one of those potentially silly products actually succeeds, WOTC can copy it and do it up nice and reap the rewards... in effect, free market research via the blood of venturesome entrepreneurs.

But this can create problems. For example, tons of shelf space can get taken up in game stores by moribund D20 products - I've seen this. Savvy retailers close it out via a bargain bin; many retailers are not savvy and suffer (not really WOTC's fault, but there it is). Also, the model seems to suggest that the WOTC staple will sometimes be world-specific heavy hitters like Magic of Eberron or generic expansions like Psionics, but almost as often will be things like "Races of Fuchsia" or "Heroes of Burlap" or such nonsense. And the whole thing seems predicated on WOTC mainstays being marketed for their "crunch factor"... the number of new feats and prestige classes they contain.

At this point, one problem with 3E is that there are so many base classes, so many prestige classes, so many feats and so much extra stuff that it becomes totally unmanageable. People get into concocting rule-busting "killer combos" for their "character builds" as if it were a Magic deck, stat blocks become enormous and every extra feat you add subtracts power from the DM... the power, that is, to let any character try that action or get that bonus.

Arguably, this rules supermass stems in part from the business model itself. The only way to lurk beyond its deadly event horizon is to closely police what material is allowed in the game (like, "Core Books + Eberron books only" or somesuch). Which seems a saner policy, but seems to militate against the WOTC business model, since you're deliberately avoiding most of the stuff they're producing.

I'm wondering if they're (WOTC) not contemplating coming up with a streamlined version of the rules that reduces and limits crunchbloat and speeds up play, while at the same time driving their player base toward their collectible minis line (they've already been trying that by packaging mini boosters with entry-level game packs). That is, to move the "default" WOTC product away from a crunchbloater and toward... a minis booster or a monster book or world-specific product.

But I'm just speculating at this point. For myself, I think my favorite 3E product is "Lords of Madness", which I like mostly for the "fluff" (the opposite of "crunch"). It tells you what an aboleth city might be like, or gives you a cool possible backstory for mind flayers involving time travel (they're from the future!) and in general has a lot of nice, flavorful and thematically-unified information and ideas. That is something I can use.
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I'm wondering if they're (WOTC) not contemplating coming up with a streamlined version of the rules that reduces and limits crunchbloat and speeds up play...

I chopped the rest cause I'm not into the mini's at all. However a d20 lite would get my interest, or would have a few years ago. If they did it now I would only get stuff to use in C&C but not run in a full game with.

One thing I like about C&C and the early 1e stuff was there is/were few hardbacks and the game was supported through modules and the mags. WOTC's books for everything really cuts down creativity in an already creatively unfriendly system.
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Quote:
I believe Ryan Dancey, the author of the OGL, did forsee companies doing just that though.

He did explain the idea behind the OGL right here.

Quote:
I'm wondering if they're (WOTC) not contemplating coming up with a streamlined version of the rules that reduces and limits crunchbloat and speeds up play, while at the same time driving their player base toward their collectible minis line (they've already been trying that by packaging mini boosters with entry-level game packs).

Actually, there are rumors about a 4th edition of D&D that could be coming out as soon as 2008. Hopefully for their fans, it won't be a mini-based system because I don't think the average gamer has that much disposable income to "invest" in this hobby...at least, I know I don't...
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Metathiax wrote:
He did explain the idea behind the OGL right here.



Actually, there are rumors about a 4th edition of D&D that could be coming out as soon as 2008. Hopefully for their fans, it won't be a mini-based system because I don't think the average gamer has that much disposable income to "invest" in this hobby...at least, I know I don't...

There's been a bit of buzz about the new edition of the Star Wars D20 game (called the "Saga Edition" because it is about all 6 movies, not because it uses the wonky Dragonlance rules). Evidently it will be D20 but skill points are eliminated in favor of something like "skill picks" (if I understand it right, it is like "Ragnar will have these 5 skills" and they increase with your level)... plus some ability for high-level characters to use skills they haven't picked at a default. Also, there will be fewer classes, but each class will have a "Talent tree" like in D20 Modern, where the base class has subspecializations built in from which you choose.

And I've heard they're going to really be pushing the minis for the new game.

Myself, while I paint historical minis sometimes, I don't have a lot of interest in painting fantasy or sci-fi minis (when I could be painting a Koenigstiger, you know). So I don't mind the whole plastic pre-painted things since they also have their own minis game that goes with them (so they can do double-duty). By default I prefer to game without minis, but I don't mind the rules including them (I've run 3E without minis and it works fine as long as the players trust you). However, I just can't abide with this "collectible" garbage. I shouldn't have to spend $250 just to get enough dang stormtroopers to throw at the PCs.

I think they could bring rationality, balance and maybe even better sales to their minis lines if they did "encounter packs" of the commons: a Stormtrooper Pack, a Dwarf Pack, a Rebel Pack, an Orc Pack, etc. Just put out a bunch of generic baddies/skeletons/dire rats/whatevers for DMs to round out their collection. Then when I have mind flayers show up I can just say "These skeletons are really mind flayers", but the guys who really care can spend $1275 actually getting 5 mind flayers. Which mind flayers they can also use in the minis game, while all I've got are a bunch of dwarves and kobolds until I actually shell out for some boosters and get some rares. It would be win-win; unfortunately they're probably too conservative to see that. They'll only put out such encounter packs after the time has already passed for them to be good sellers (i.e., after most people have given up on it or another company has put out a cheap alternative).
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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."

Quote:
I think they could bring rationality, balance and maybe even better sales to their minis lines if they did "encounter packs" of the commons: a Stormtrooper Pack, a Dwarf Pack, a Rebel Pack, an Orc Pack, etc. Just put out a bunch of generic baddies/skeletons/dire rats/whatevers for DMs to round out their collection.

In my early teenage years, my friends and I used HeroQuest and DarkWorld boardgames' plastic minis as our generic critters for play with D&D...they did the trick...
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Metathiax wrote:
In my early teenage years, my friends and I used HeroQuest and DarkWorld boardgames' plastic minis as our generic critters for play with D&D...they did the trick...

*smiles* In my early gaming years, Ral Partha was still making mini's for pretty much everything.
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Peter Bradley

Ohh I miss Ral-Partha's old mini's.

One thing I want to point out is that I think Dancey and WOTC missed a point. Since he liked to throw around theories here is mine:

The more that the leading market share company leans to a system that many find too complicated the more customers they loose. The more companies that produce games that this abandoned customer base does like the more money the LMS (Leading Market Share) company will loose to competitors.

Example: 4e is a more rules complicated mini's based system. Fans are again pushed off and turn to systems like C&C. The money lost by WOTC is given to TLG or another company that produces a game that is liked. Thus this could threaten the assumption that D&D is safe from competition.

just my 2 cents.
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Quote:
Thus this could threaten the assumption that D&D is safe from competition.

Empires sitting on their laurels are doomed to crumble sooner or later...
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Metathiax wrote:
Empires sitting on their laurels are doomed to crumble sooner or later...

I sat on my laurels once... it hurt like hell.

Julian Grimm wrote:
However a d20 lite would get my interest, or would have a few years ago. If they did it now I would only get stuff to use in C&C but not run in a full game with.

Something to touch on here.

A d20 lite doesn't do anything for me, because unless checks and balances are added to the system, like what were added for Castles & Crusades, the basic problem with d20 still exists. The system as written in the SRD, encourages everything that older editions of Dungeons & Dragons discouraged. A d20 lite would in fact fix one problem with the d20 rules: playability. Fewer rules equals a more playable system. d20, with its plethora of rules, is a nightmare for DMs to run. Players though feel empowered, because they get all these kewl powerz and leet skillz to create a "build" with.

Castles & Crusades is fantastic because it's a modern game that's playable, fun, and actively discourages the things that should be discouraged. WotC had their chance to make a modern game that's playable, fun, and actively discourages the things that should be discouraged. Instead, the sheep out there got d20 Fantasy.
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Players though feel empowered, because they get all these kewl powerz and leet skillz to create a "build" with.

Actually, I like the idea of having enough flexibility to create a specific character concept. Having said that, I strongly doubt that all of 3e D&D's 174 classes, 737 prestige classes and 3012 feats (from WotC's own official consolidated lists and counting...) are required to achieve that objective. There's a serious problem to begin with when such a listing is needed to keep track of the players' options. I allow 10 races and 25 classes in my campaign (which is, admittedly, already a hefty selection by most standards) and, with the possibility of double-classing, I would be hard-pressed of thinking out a worthwhile character concept that isn't covered. I think that WotC wouldn't have alienated so much of the old-schoolers if they would have kept their system more reasonable and supported it through quality modules (among other things) instead of adding layers upon layers of mechanics...
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Julian Grimm wrote:
Heh, WOTC slams TSR for the number of books they produced for 2e but look at the stuff they have put out for 3e and you'll see a 'pot/kettle' effect. I'm waiting for 'Races of Dirt' to come out...

That might take a while... they're currently milking Complete guides for all their worth. Coming Soon... The Complete Scoundrel (seriously... I'm not making this up).

Moriarty the Red
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I think you just perfectly described why I ran screaming from 3E and get feelings of nausea any time I contemplate DMing it again. See? Just typing in that sentence got the nausea thing going. Does that qualify as serious enough mental trauma to press charges or sue WOTC for the harm they have casued me?

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I think you just perfectly described why I ran screaming from 3E and get feelings of nausea any time I contemplate DMing it again.

I don't even hate the founding concepts behing the 3E. The rapid & uniform lvl progression, easy & unrestricted multiclassing, skills and feats do make up a great basis for a superheroic fantasy RPG which, in itself, isn't a bad idea as far as I'm concerned. I really enjoy playing my Temple of Elemental Evil PC game but I would've never considered DMing for 3E, just looking at the critters' stat blocks makes my head spin. That much details just aren't necessary...
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Metathiax wrote:
Actually, I like the idea of having enough flexibility to create a specific character concept. Having said that, I strongly doubt that all of 3e D&D's 174 classes, 737 prestige classes and 3012 feats (from WotC's own official consolidated lists and counting...) are required to achieve that objective. There's a serious problem to begin with when such a listing is needed to keep track of the players' options. I allow 10 races and 25 classes in my campaign (which is, admittedly, already a hefty selection by most standards) and, with the possibility of double-classing, I would be hard-pressed of thinking out a worthwhile character concept that isn't covered. I think that WotC wouldn't have alienated so much of the old-schoolers if they would have kept their system more reasonable and supported it through quality modules (among other things) instead of adding layers upon layers of mechanics...

Some flexibility is acceptable, but not at the cost of the total dilution of the archetypes. The majority of differences between various members of the same class can be shown through actual role playing, not through a laundry list of featz and skillz. The laundry list as you illustrated there is totally ridiculous, though it also assumes that the referee allows everything.

To me, your 10 races and 25 character classes are too much. For my games, I use 9 classes, 5 races, and allow my players to actually THINK about what they want to be. In D&D, I don't have monks (strong bias against re-enacting David Carradine's Kung Fu in D&D) and I don't have bards (they're wandering minstrels, and thus NPCs). In Castles & Crusades I don't have knights or barbarians (both can be achieved through role playing) in addition to monks and bards. I won't touch on multi-classing except to say it's limited at best, due to my desire not to dilute the archetypes.

WotC wouldn't have alienated the old-schoolers if they had actually LISTENED to the gamers who understood how Dungeons & Dragons was supposed to work, instead of a demographic that only knows video games and wanted a video game on paper. WotC had an opportunity to clean up Dungeons & Dragons and make the new rules function like older (and better) systems, instead of this powermongering mess that eliminates every negative effect in the game. But, instead, the gamers who actually understood the system were ignored, and the evidence that the surveys were ignored can be found on the Internet if one knows where to look.

But I really don't need to say much more about how pathetic d20 Fantasy has become. I'll just let Pun-Pun tell the tale.
The feel is totally different between d20 Fantasy and the games that came before it. The feel makes all the difference here. Other than the six basic attributes, armor class, hit points, and levels, d20 Fantasy and the games that came before it have nothing in common. d20 Fantasy is a polar opposite of everything we older players are used to, and that is a turn off. Because of that, d20 Fantasy is the world's most popular role playing game in name only.

d20 Fantasy is a completely different animal, and not worthy of the name it bears.
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To me, your 10 races and 25 character classes are too much. For my games, I use 9 classes, 5 races, and allow my players to actually THINK about what they want to be.

Traveller, I think that to say that you are an Old-Schooler is somewhat of an understatement. You should be considered to be a Venerable-Schooler while I would be kind of a Middle-Aged-Schooler (I started gaming in the 2E "era", so I guess this makes me a video game polluted mind... ) according to my dumb ass classification system... Hahemm...I think it's getting late...

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Some flexibility is acceptable, but not at the cost of the total dilution of the archetypes.

I obviously do not hold the "classic" archetypes as dearly as you do but I understand why you would and I do find some charm to the idea. Your view of fantasy gaming might be slightly more hardcore than what most gamers would consider to be old-school. After all, you did cut 1/3 of the base classes and races of what is considered to be an old-school flavored game... Your setup is more or less like the 1E minus the monk and 2 races (half-elf and half-orc I guess?).

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WotC wouldn't have alienated the old-schoolers if they had actually LISTENED to the gamers who understood how Dungeons & Dragons was supposed to work, instead of a demographic that only knows video games and wanted a video game on paper. WotC had an opportunity to clean up Dungeons & Dragons and make the new rules function like older (and better) systems, instead of this powermongering mess that eliminates every negative effect in the game. But, instead, the gamers who actually understood the system were ignored, and the evidence that the surveys were ignored can be found on the Internet if one knows where to look.

I mean no disrespect (especially not to an elder ) but D&D (and games in general...) is supposed to work how you want it to work. Even if WotC would have listened, they still would have "modernized" the game to some extent. Realistically, just cloning and cleaning up 1E D&D wouldn't have revived the line within the context of the current RPG market.

Though, I do agree that the path they chose was ill advised from a long term perspective (I don't think gamers will be playing 3.XE D&D in 10, 20 or more years as much as 1E players still do), it seems they have won their bet from a short term perspective by favoring a "more, bigger and shinier is better" strategy (WotC and WW almost own the market to themselves). In my opinion, the present generation of young gamers will either move on to the next new thing (4E D&D?) or simply leave gaming altogether for video games (they may find reading books too tedious and time consuming to bother playing RPGs elsewhere than on their PCs...) since I doubt they will grow up to be very attached to the cold, mechanical, all flash but no substance feel of 3.X D&D.

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But I really don't need to say much more about how pathetic d20 Fantasy has become. I'll just let Pun-Pun tell the tale.

This is sad indeed but all too predictable...
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As an exercise, Pun Pun is a fun thing to create. I dont mind someone sitting around making various character combos as a brain teaser to see how powerful they can be. Unfortunately, it doesnt stop there, ever. Some rules lawyering yahoo will invariably bring one of these monstrosities to the table wanting to slip it under the DMs radar. As a DM, I hate this with every fiber of my being. I dont want to babysit every aspect of the game (particularly those aspects intended to be in the hands of the players), which is why I only play with people I trust and, even better, stay away from 3.x as much as possible.