Are RPGs Too Long?

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MormonYoYoMan
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Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

A big guy at Steve Jackson Games suggests that rolegames are Just Too Long. How are we gonna get new gamers interested in something which comes in at the size of, he examples, Pathfinder or Dungeon Crawl Classics, either of which would make a good end table and together could be the beginning of a wonderful hernia.

http://www.battlegrip.com/?p=39540

When introducing an RPG to someone, the bar-none easiest for a stranger to pick up and play is basic Fudge. If they can describe their character at all, they can usually put those words on the sheet and begin playing.

But then there's the problem of the amount of work the gamesmaster has to do to create his particular flavor of Fudge (for Fudge is a toolbox more than a rulebook). And I find myself going back to that Old Reliable: Tunnels & Trolls, which could (and has) boil its rules down to a bare 4 pages.

Nowadays, I find Castles & Crusades as much fun as, and more realistic than, T&T. (Darned few solos, though.) The "compartmenting" of so many of the rules, makes it simple to run, and fun to research & study.

Have looked at the C&C quick start rules, and honestly -- one could run a campaign almost indefinitely with just those few pages.

And yet I like a certain amount of heft to my games. Certainly, I gave up on AD&D a lonnnnng time ago because it seemed that you had to have every book, every magazine, every nuance - and don't get me started on Pathfinder (aka "Backbreaker"). Each of these are fine games, but much more work than I want to accomplish - or have time for.

For me, C&C strikes that balance - even though it pushed it somewhat by adding Classic Monsters. (But it's so very cool, that I think we can forgive the extra reading, while trying to resist the temptation to throw every one of those monsters into a first-level adventure.)

But I wonder - to enlist future players, will it really be more effective to have very, very short rulesets?

Or does it make sense to go the old Basic/Expert/Don't-tell-me-there's-ANOTHER-box-I-need-to-buy method, and introduce future RPGs a spoonful at a time?
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Go0gleplex »

To paraphrase an anime quote I ran across;

"Rule sets are like skirts. The shorter the better, as long as they cover the important parts."

I think C&C manages this quite well. Better than most actually. But the secret to attracting new players isn't in simplified rules, but in easy to understand rules and how well the CK makes their first game an adventure to remember. No matter the rules, people will not play if they are not having fun.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Traveller »

Hero System players believe floor length is too short for a skirt. ;)

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Relaxo »

You need X-plorers!

:D

I agree, the C&C QS is complete as is. It's a great mini PBH.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Omote »

Totally agree. Of the examples given in that article, two of the games have come across our gaming group's table and we decided to pass on them. Many of our group members don't have time to digest a new 400+ page game. We are professionals and parents and who in the hell has time to learn new games of this length? Plus, don't the youth of the world have attention span problems? You are not going to sell a 400+ page gamebook to some snot-nosed newbie who's looking for a new game.

I'm OK with having add-on supplement books, to a point. The marketing process of v3.5, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, etc. have too many add-on products. It kills it for me, and as far as I know those we play with. Add-on rules books once a year or so, isn't that big of a problem. But when I come to a game with my core rulebook being 400+ pages and some other player comes with 19 books weighing in at 80 lbs, I get sickened. I've been there, I've done that. The extra books, the big massive page counts, kill it for me. F 'em.

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by redwullf »

S&W & C&C (especially Whitebox editions) and, of course, LL, are great introductions. For my youngest daughter, I simply broke out the old Red Box Player's Manual ("Read this book first!" it commands at the top) and had her read through the scenario. In 20 to 30 minutes, this gave her the fundamental background required to begin learning the mechanics of FRPGs.

She now plays C&C. :)
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Sir Ironside
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Traveller wrote:Hero System players believe floor length is too short for a skirt. ;)
A bullet proof skirt.
Omote wrote:Totally agree. Of the examples given in that article, two of the games have come across our gaming group's table and we decided to pass on them. Many of our group members don't have time to digest a new 400+ page game. We are professionals and parents and who in the hell has time to learn new games of this length? Plus, don't the youth of the world have attention span problems? You are not going to sell a 400+ page gamebook to some snot-nosed newbie who's looking for a new game.
A little harsh?

Even so called, "rules light" books can morph into large complex rules. Three examples I can think of is the FATE system where Starblazers, Legends of Anglerre and The Dresden Files move the simplistic FATE system to a complexity that would make D&D 3.5 blush.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by CKDad »

This is one reason I steered away from 3.x when I started up the game for my kids. (The search for what rules to use led me here.) The kids, most aged 10 & 11 at the time, already got some of the basics - they've been playing RPG video games like "Golden Sun" and "Fire Emblem" and others for years. But the notion of trying to slam them with all of that volume of rules, and so much crunch, just wasn't appealing. (My desire to actually run that wasn't high, either.)

I do think think that the desire among many players (not all) for less complex, more streamlined systems is why C&C, Savage Worlds and the like are so successful.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Arduin »

MormonYoYoMan wrote:A big guy at Steve Jackson Games suggests that rolegames are Just Too Long. How are we gonna get new gamers interested in something which comes in at the size of, he examples, Pathfinder or Dungeon Crawl Classics, either of which would make a good end table and together could be the beginning of a wonderful hernia.

I never understood this mindset. If the game can be played with a couple of books, then it's no different than ~1980. TONS of new players then.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by MormonYoYoMan »

Arduin wrote:
MormonYoYoMan wrote:A big guy at Steve Jackson Games suggests that rolegames are Just Too Long. How are we gonna get new gamers interested in something which comes in at the size of, he examples, Pathfinder or Dungeon Crawl Classics, either of which would make a good end table and together could be the beginning of a wonderful hernia.

I never understood this mindset. If the game can be played with a couple of books, then it's no different than ~1980. TONS of new players then.
Just three of us could be tons now.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Willy Rat »

I do think think that the desire among many players (not all) for less complex, more streamlined systems is why C&C, Savage Worlds and the like are so successful.
You got it CKDad. I got back into roleplaying to introduce it to my adolescent god-kids around 4 years ago. After being out of the loop for 25 years or so, I took a look at what was out there and was gobsmacked by the Voluminous Tomes of Crunchyness.

I wanted the ol' skool RPG with the thinking and the talking and the fun having. Not the one with the very pretty pictures or the very big price tags.

C&C was my obvious choice.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by finarvyn »

I agree that rulebooks are too long.

1. For some reason, every author wants to explain how to play. You don't think that most folks can figure out what an RPG is? I figured out what D&D was back in the 1970's and that was when the genre was just getting started. We may have messed some stuff up, but who cares? We had fun.

2. For some reason, many game systems try to cover every possible option. I like to play with quick "rule of thumb" dice bonuses, but many rules sets have all sorts of carefully worked-out modifiers for every situation. Ugh.

3. DCC is a little bit of an exception since a huge part of the rulebook is charts for individual spell effects instead of rules, but it is a massive tome.

I think that C&C is a great length, particularly since you don't need the CKG in order to play. And if you've never looked at the original 1974 OD&D rules you've missed out on something very compact -- the three base rulebooks weigh in at 36, 40, and 36 "pages" (paper folded over so that 4 "pages" is one sheet of paper printed double-sided) or essentially 56 pages of rules and even with the important rules from the supplements OD&D is no more than 100 pages in length. I'm a big fan of shorter RPGs and find it interesting that the overall trend is toward longer and longer books of rules.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Traveller »

You would know better than I, but OD&D using the "alternate" combat system ended up missing some things we take for granted today. There were no rules for determining who goes first and there were no saving throw tables. Worse, some spell effects - especially haste and slow - could not be determined using just the box set. If I recall correctly this was because Chainmail was supposed to take up the slack.

In any event, I would be sorely pressed to edit the Gray Book down to 100 pages. I thought 144 was short enough. :)

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by finarvyn »

Hey, Traveller, even 144 pages is pretty short nowadays.

I agree that the length of OD&D fluxuates based on what's in and what's out. I was keeping psionics out, for example, and much of the material from the supplements (other than character class info for assassins, thieves, monks, druids...) I'm not certain which parts of Chainmail are "must have" but I don't think it's that many, compared to the rest of the rules.

Yeah, I probably couldn't keep it under 100 pages, either. :D
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by koralas »

Traveller wrote:You would know better than I, but OD&D using the "alternate" combat system ended up missing some things we take for granted today. There were no rules for determining who goes first and there were no saving throw tables. Worse, some spell effects - especially haste and slow - could not be determined using just the box set. If I recall correctly this was because Chainmail was supposed to take up the slack.

In any event, I would be sorely pressed to edit the Gray Book down to 100 pages. I thought 144 was short enough. :)
Yes Initiative was missing, as was the effect of haste/slow; however, the saving throw matrix was there in Men & Magic, page 20.

It was assumed you would have Chainmail, but the addition of information for haste and slow would have been but one line additional for each at most, and intiative little more than a bullet point, 2 lines at best, if following the mold of the Chainmail rules. So maybe 4 additional lines, easily accomodated by standardizing the layout, the space between images and text is no where near consistent, and resizing of an image or two.

Also consider, the rule books themselves admit they are far from complete and encourage the players of the game to flesh it out as they wish. Or, if they want a more "official" kind of answer to write with their questions or suggestions.

I think 200 pages is the sweet spot for an RPG set of rules, the book(s) needed to actually begin playing the game. Companion books can be a bit larger, these are things like books of monsters. Supplements of additional, optional rules, after that may be of pretty much any size, though I would still like to see them be specialized and 200 pages or less.

Now I also realize that much of the information in the rule books are important to have as reference and ultimately retain the information on, but aren't necessarily needed to be read at the outset of a new gamer's time in the game. The 1st Ed. DMG, for example, is 120 pages of rules, 48 pages of magic items, 26 pages of crafting encounter settings (random dungeons, wilderness, even extra-planar, including random charts for monsters), 20 pages of monster statistics, and the rest of the book is descriptions of trappings. All this weighing in at 240 pages, quite daunting, until you look at it being "only" 120 pages of rules. Add to that 128 pages of PHB, if you eliminate spell descriptions that leaves 68 pages, bringing it to 188 pages of rules that need to be known to run a game as a GM, and about 128 pages of rules (spells, magic items, monster stats) that are heavily refered to. As a player, this number shrinks dramatically to that of the PHB, so about 68 pages, with spell casters reading through the material for the spells they have access to.

In many regards, this is why B/X was perfect for beginning players. Limit the rules to those that will be likely utilized at any given level of play and expand as you progress. You can then opt to play a more "advanced" game with more rules if you so wish...

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Traveller »

koralas wrote:Yes Initiative was missing, as was the effect of haste/slow; however, the saving throw matrix was there in Men & Magic, page 20.
Either I simply missed it in going through my copy of OD&D, or I didn't like it and replaced it with the saving throw charts from B/X. Likely the latter.

In reply to Finarvyn, the Gray Book doesn't have monks (Blackmoor), psionics (Eldritch Wizardry) or artifacts (Eldritch Wizardry) in it; three things that a lot of people liked from AD&D. Other than that, I used the classes, monsters (edited to remove psionic abilities) and magic items from the two books. Everything else, along with Gods, Demigods and Heroes, was left on the cutting room floor. If I ever feel so inclined I may finish putting the cuttings together into a second book.

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Relaxo »

Seriously, X-plorers.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

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MormonYoYoMan wrote:But I wonder - to enlist future players, will it really be more effective to have very, very short rulesets?

Or does it make sense to go the old Basic/Expert/Don't-tell-me-there's-ANOTHER-box-I-need-to-buy method, and introduce future RPGs a spoonful at a time?
I think you can find quickstart rules for most games, regardless of their final print size, that are quick digestable and small. Personally I think the trend of large tomes is a bonus and Not just for the grognard/collector. As a kid, the D&D books were something I wanted to read and look through and read again, there was so much stuff in there, it was just awesome. The quality and production levels on these new books are simply amazing, not to mention the Art in D&D 4e and Pathfinder is full color and very cool as well another big plus and I think that is a draw to get new people into the hobby not a detractor.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Joe »

YES!

When consumers place value in certain things, that is what the designers are going to provide.
It is the common mistake of more is more.

I think it is a catch 22 of giving people what they want in lieu of what they need.

Another thing I notice is:
People purposely misinterpret the rules.
Designers try to clarify the rules by adding more text.
This just give those ppl more words in which to misinterpret. The next thing you know we have stuff like 3.x.

Example: Has ANYONE made sense of the grappling rules yet?
Anyone?

Thus the cycle continues.

"Make something up from your imagination." was not enough for people so they gave us more.

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by moriarty777 »

For the most part, I also have to say yes. And for some reasons already discussed, it makes sense.

AD&D was created to provide more detailed and concise rules but clearly arose from the 3 lbb's and a handful of things from the scattering of supplements. I seem to recall reading a passage which talks about one of the reasons was for a set of tournament rules. Naturally, there were other reasons but it was an interesting comment nonetheless.

Earlier RPG's are shorter and simpler since the primary focus was to develop a framework to use and build from. Now, newer games or versions are interested in building up and around the framework in order to supply everything that one might want but rather not develop themselves.

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Joe
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Joe »

Moriarty nailed it!

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by moriarty777 »

Joe wrote:Moriarty nailed it!

Thanks! It must be on the account of my Prime in my Wisdom score. ;)

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Relaxo »

They just like your spiffy new logo.
:p
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by moriarty777 »

Relaxo wrote:They just like your spiffy new logo.
:p
Well, it *is* pretty spiffy. ;)

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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Relaxo »

Indeed it is! I like the moon to the left of the "AC" that's more readable. I can't explain why, but I find it more readable than when it was below the letters.
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Re: Are RPGs Too Long?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Relaxo wrote:Indeed it is! I like the moon to the left of the "AC" that's more readable. I can't explain why, but I find it more readable than when it was below the letters.
Cause we are westerners not Japanese or Chinese. ;)
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