rabin,
I do not agree with you, the ranger is not the same as the wildlander at all, just like it was not the same with 3.5 D&D, the same way the setting has new mechanics under 3.X it requires new mechanics under C&C as well. The defender is not anywhere close to what a monk is, even the C&C monk, the same is true for the ranger, using C&C for Midnight is one thing, converting it requires those two classes.
The spell point system from Unearthed Arcana is far stronger than the one in the Midnight books, both in number of spells and number of points, and if we are to use one, we can just as well end up using the other.
While I like C&C I must as I am a Midnight fan first and a C&C after that, so i want to be truer to midnight than to C&C by the book.
Heroic Paths should increase the levelling progression if they will have different power levels and no change if they are roughly the same in power. As I said, this might be the key idea to introduce the magic for everyone feel, which has little to do with the channeller anyway. Sometime soon I might end up starting this as I outlined above though, will let you know once I do.
Omote,
It is not a rewrite, but a process of changing some areas, making new ones, the same process has been done to the d20 core mechanics to make the setting. As I said, using the setting with C&C as is is perfectly fine, but then you will already be loosing some of its own peculiarities, it need not be major if we stick to the C&C style and the Midnight feel close enough, and with balance between them.
The day I start this by myself seems to be even closer now, with this thread and all.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Destiny & Shadow...
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rabindranath72
- Lore Drake
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Omote
- Battle Stag
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Nifelhein wrote:
It is not a rewrite, but a process of changing some areas, making new ones...
OK I won't disagree with you on this as our ideas of rewriting are probably a bit different. However, now we know where you stand on this. Being a Midnight fan first, you are inclined to make the changes to the Defender and the Wildlander for the C&C system. This is not a problem. However, and I'm sure your follow me on this, if one were to bring Midnight over to C&C, from a C&C point of view, the classes wouldn't need to be changed at all to fit within the setting.
The original point of this thread was to point out how the Destiny & Shadow book can be brought over to C&C without doing any conversion work. Just pick up the book, read it and use the setting as is. Many who read this thread won't be familiar with the differences between the M2E classes from the C&C classes.
And I submit to you that to spread the Midnight setting across systems is easier if it is sold with minimal conversion work (and the ultimate point of this thread). Once a C&Cer reads the M2E setting, he will have his own ideas on how to change the world over to C&C. Maybe, no conversion work is neccessary at all, as this might be the whim of one CK from another. Maybe every nuance from M2E should be changed to fit in with the setting, as it seems where Nif is coming from. And for others, some middle ground will be the way to go.
Regardless of where one wants to go with this discussion, the ultimate idea is that Midnight is such a unique setting, while staying very close to gold ole' fashion RPG thematic elements, that it makes good for any system. Midnight is good, huh? You damn riiiight it is.
..........................................Omote
FPQ
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I agree that one can use the setting with the core books of C&C without giving it much thought, they all derive from the same source after all. I do not want to make the system a slave to the setting, but to reproduce the same feel it has within the system.
I have seen a lot of conversion from Midnight. to GURPS, Riddle of Steel, Unisystem, Hackmaster, True20 and a few other systems, this shows how easy it is to port the whole idea over and reproduce most of the elements in another system.
it is too damn good, and trust me, I would take C&C over any other D&D game any time.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
I have seen a lot of conversion from Midnight. to GURPS, Riddle of Steel, Unisystem, Hackmaster, True20 and a few other systems, this shows how easy it is to port the whole idea over and reproduce most of the elements in another system.
it is too damn good, and trust me, I would take C&C over any other D&D game any time.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Wow! Lot of action since I made my last post.
I must say, I'm in the same boat as Nif. I place Midnight before C&C. After looking very closely a lot of "how can I convert [x]" issues here are my thoughts (or you can read some of them on the AtS forums).
Races: Easy Easy to convert.
Classes: Channeler is a little tough, but it's just a matter being able to cut down the majority of class abilities while still keeping 3 distinct channeler types. Defender and Wildlander can be based on the Ranger and Monk classes, by tweaking the C&C class abilities to match Midnight (not very hard to do). Fighter, Rogue, Assassin, Barbarian and Cleric can plug right in (no conversion). You could even use the Bard and the Knight classes (though limited, Knight's for Sarcosan and Erenlanders only, Bards should be quite rare). This wouldn't break Midnight in anyway.
Spells: I would just use the C&C spell list, break it down into 3 or 4 spell schools, re-create the list by dropping spells that don't work in Midnight. Use Spell Energy as is from Midnight, spell schools can be learned by Channelers each [x] number of levels. The only problem is once again, the "any one can cast magic with the right feats" issue. I would allow Multi-Classing or Dual-Classing so this can fix that issue (to a point).
Heroic Paths: Re-write for C&C, not a big deal. Balancing will be a matter of bias (there would be no mathematical way to really balance them) but get it as close as you can.
Everything else from Midnight (like the Fell and Outsiders) can be easily plugged in (on the Fly even if needed, but a set of distinct rules could be written very easily).
One thing that a person would have to live with, is that a lot of the Class mechanics (that add to the class flavor) may have to be given up to some point. A good description can solve that though.
I'm a Network Engineer, and here is a rule I use at work that a person would need to use when doing a Midnight -> C&C conversion:
Keep It Simple Stupid
KISS
When I was first thinking of going all out on this, I kept having to correct my thinking in that, it's very easy to over complicate C&C/SIEGE when bringing things in from D20.
I must say, I'm in the same boat as Nif. I place Midnight before C&C. After looking very closely a lot of "how can I convert [x]" issues here are my thoughts (or you can read some of them on the AtS forums).
Races: Easy Easy to convert.
Classes: Channeler is a little tough, but it's just a matter being able to cut down the majority of class abilities while still keeping 3 distinct channeler types. Defender and Wildlander can be based on the Ranger and Monk classes, by tweaking the C&C class abilities to match Midnight (not very hard to do). Fighter, Rogue, Assassin, Barbarian and Cleric can plug right in (no conversion). You could even use the Bard and the Knight classes (though limited, Knight's for Sarcosan and Erenlanders only, Bards should be quite rare). This wouldn't break Midnight in anyway.
Spells: I would just use the C&C spell list, break it down into 3 or 4 spell schools, re-create the list by dropping spells that don't work in Midnight. Use Spell Energy as is from Midnight, spell schools can be learned by Channelers each [x] number of levels. The only problem is once again, the "any one can cast magic with the right feats" issue. I would allow Multi-Classing or Dual-Classing so this can fix that issue (to a point).
Heroic Paths: Re-write for C&C, not a big deal. Balancing will be a matter of bias (there would be no mathematical way to really balance them) but get it as close as you can.
Everything else from Midnight (like the Fell and Outsiders) can be easily plugged in (on the Fly even if needed, but a set of distinct rules could be written very easily).
One thing that a person would have to live with, is that a lot of the Class mechanics (that add to the class flavor) may have to be given up to some point. A good description can solve that though.
I'm a Network Engineer, and here is a rule I use at work that a person would need to use when doing a Midnight -> C&C conversion:
Keep It Simple Stupid
KISS
When I was first thinking of going all out on this, I kept having to correct my thinking in that, it's very easy to over complicate C&C/SIEGE when bringing things in from D20.
I've "lurked" this thread for a while. I finally got a chance to check out the Midnight setting & it does look great! I defiantly like the idea of the evil being in power & the adventures having to be true heroes not just hacking away for gold & fame....
As everyone here has read more on the subject than I what books (-PDF versions, I'm already filling up the open spaces on my bookshelves...) do you suggest, out side of the Midnight Core book. At $49 for the PDF..... kind of spendy! Glancing at RPG Now, Hammer & shadow Star & shadow, and Under the Shadow all looked good.
Thanks for the help & introduction to a new setting!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
As everyone here has read more on the subject than I what books (-PDF versions, I'm already filling up the open spaces on my bookshelves...) do you suggest, out side of the Midnight Core book. At $49 for the PDF..... kind of spendy! Glancing at RPG Now, Hammer & shadow Star & shadow, and Under the Shadow all looked good.
Thanks for the help & introduction to a new setting!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
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DangerDwarf
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I just got my copy of Midnight 2E yesterday and while I haven't had a chance to fully read through it yet, I am definately impressed. Well worth the price.
Without a doubt I'm going to start looking at a C&C conversion of it after I have a chance to digest more of it. After my Dragonlance Campaign winds down it looks like we'll be giving this a shot.
Without a doubt I'm going to start looking at a C&C conversion of it after I have a chance to digest more of it. After my Dragonlance Campaign winds down it looks like we'll be giving this a shot.
The quality of the setting is worthy every penny spent on the core book, I would not buy pdf since FFG makes absolutely no real discount on them over print, but that is really up to you.
The Fury of Shadow boxed set is the best written, most inspiring, awe invoking, jaw dropper supplement on the whole line, the mechanics, other than NPCs, is reduced to a single prestige class and a couple of feats (no more than 10 or so, really).
But which book should be bought next really comes down to what you want to get more information on, they are often above the average quality of setting material out there, I advise you to read through the core book first, be certain that you like the feel and style of the setting, then see where you want to expand upon and get something fitting that.
Steel and Shadow and Sorcery and Shadow, while good books are mostly mechanics, so they might be without much use for anyone seeking a C&C Midnight game, so you guys might want to avoid those two. Additionally City of Shadow is surely the worst supplement in the line, it has a more generic D&D feel all over it and while it introduced a lot of good ideas and concepts to the setting at the time it came out, the 2nd edition core book has those as well, so you may want to stay clear of that one too. Of course if you are actually seeking adventures in Highwall it is a good thing to go with, just not the usual kind of adventure (being the place where the Legates - evil clerics TM - make their base and a dragon standing at the top).
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
The Fury of Shadow boxed set is the best written, most inspiring, awe invoking, jaw dropper supplement on the whole line, the mechanics, other than NPCs, is reduced to a single prestige class and a couple of feats (no more than 10 or so, really).
But which book should be bought next really comes down to what you want to get more information on, they are often above the average quality of setting material out there, I advise you to read through the core book first, be certain that you like the feel and style of the setting, then see where you want to expand upon and get something fitting that.
Steel and Shadow and Sorcery and Shadow, while good books are mostly mechanics, so they might be without much use for anyone seeking a C&C Midnight game, so you guys might want to avoid those two. Additionally City of Shadow is surely the worst supplement in the line, it has a more generic D&D feel all over it and while it introduced a lot of good ideas and concepts to the setting at the time it came out, the 2nd edition core book has those as well, so you may want to stay clear of that one too. Of course if you are actually seeking adventures in Highwall it is a good thing to go with, just not the usual kind of adventure (being the place where the Legates - evil clerics TM - make their base and a dragon standing at the top).
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.