300

[Julian Grimm]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Just a bit of trivia about the masons. That most famous of piratical symbols, the skull and crossbones, is in actual fact a masonic symbol. The local masonic lodge master pointed that one out to me. An amusing fyi for thoes interested.

It's also a symbol used by the Oddfellows. Don't ask how I know.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[Orpheus]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm

[gideon_thorne]

Julian Grimm wrote:
It's also a symbol used by the Oddfellows. Don't ask how I know.

Remind me to tell you a story about my dads involvement in helping a fellow reseach a group called the Knights of the Golden Circle sometime. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Remind me to tell you a story about my dads involvement in helping a fellow reseach a group called the Knights of the Golden Circle sometime. ^_~`

Didn't they have Klan-affiliation to a certain degree. I saw something a few weeks ago that mentioned Jesse James being a member.

[Julian Grimm]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Remind me to tell you a story about my dads involvement in helping a fellow reseach a group called the Knights of the Golden Circle sometime. ^_~`

Just hit the little PM button when you have time.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
Didn't they have Klan-affiliation to a certain degree. I saw something a few weeks ago that mentioned Jesse James being a member.

In short, it was, and is, a group that formed from the confederacy just after the Civil War. One of its goals was to hide the wealth of the confederacy untill said rebel faction was ready to rise again.

The fellow that my dad was helping recieved a number of threatening phone calls to keep his nose to himself when research uncovered the location of many cache's of secreted wealth.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
In short, it was, and is, a group that formed from the confederacy just after the Civil War. One of its goals was to hide the wealth of the confederacy untill said rebel faction was ready to rise again.

The fellow that my dad was helping recieved a number of threatening phone calls to keep his nose to himself when research uncovered the location of many cache's of secreted wealth.

What wealth? Any money was worthless and tied to individual states. There was no national economy. If there was any "Confederate wealth" they would've eaten with it.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
What wealth? Any money was worthless and tied to individual states. There was no national economy. If there was any "Confederate wealth" they would've eaten with it.

*smiles* Im not talking the confederate currency, im talking hidden gold and silver.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Im not talking the confederate currency, im talking hidden gold and silver.

A lot of the money at that time was tied to gold. If the Confederacy had any gold and silver then they would've used it during the war and not hidden it. In order to keep resources out of Union hands they did things like burn them. Again, there wasn't a strong national currency. A majority of the money was handled by the states individually. That means that any gold-backing for the currency was also held by the states. If there was any hidden wealth then it would've been used to help rebuild the South. Any so-called Southerner would've helped out his fellow countrymen. It makes a nice story, but it's along the same lines as Odessa and "Der Spinner." It just smells of "conspiracy theory" and those usually have no basis in fact. Much like the theories behind the Knights Templars. It's okay Peter, artists are usually drawn to such things. They figure that they're so creative so why not everyone else.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
It's okay Peter, artists are usually drawn to such things. They figure that they're so creative so why not everyone else.

*chuckles* The author found hidden cache's by using his own research. Its a tad more than a conspiracy theory mate. ^_~`

I grew up surrounded by historians, and have been involved in historical recreations for some 30 odd years. It's a strange sort of world, far more mystical and strange than most people give it credit. The oddest things in history, I find, tend to be the most factual. But these things also generate the most doubt. Might have to do with most people thinking they can't be that thoroughly hoodwinked by so called 'less advanced' peoples. ^_~`

In the sheer arogance of modern man, there is no room for the idea that ones ancestors might have actually known a thing or two.

Why else is there a 5000 year old battery, that was removed from one of the 3 great pyramids, sitting in a british museum?

What of metalurgical processes that similar ancient cultures knew of that could turn gold and similar metals into something like transparent glass? A processs that is only just being rediscovered by modern science. m-state metals its called.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy. ...
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[johns]

Quote:
*chuckles* Just a bit of trivia about the masons. That most famous of piratical symbols, the skull and crossbones, is in actual fact a masonic symbol. The local masonic lodge master pointed that one out to me. An amusing fyi for thoes interested.

Freemasons of the Caribbean! Naw - it'll never sell. Better stick to pirates.

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* The author found hidden cache's by using his own research. Its a tad more than a conspiracy theory mate. ^_~`

I grew up surrounded by historians, and have been involved in historical recreations for some 30 odd years. It's a strange sort of world, far more mystical and strange than most people give it credit. The oddest things in history, I find, tend to be the most factual. But these things also generate the most doubt. Might have to do with most people thinking they can't be that thoroughly hoodwinked by so called 'less advanced' peoples. ^_~`

In the sheer arogance of modern man, there is no room for the idea that ones ancestors might have actually known a thing or two.

Why else is there a 5000 year old battery, that was removed from one of the 3 great pyramids, sitting in a british museum?

What of metalurgical processes that similar ancient cultures knew of that could turn gold and similar metals into something like transparent glass? A processs that is only just being rediscovered by modern science. m-state metals its called.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy. ...

I'm not doubting that our ancestors knew "a thing or two." I just think that "treasure trove" stories are usually not credible when viewed in relationship to history. If anyone were still sitting on top of caches of Confederate wealth then they would probably need to hurry up and get rid of it since simple inflation would have made it almost worthless. A lot of wealth to them wouldn't be much to us.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
I'm not doubting that our ancestors knew "a thing or two." I just think that "treasure trove" stories are usually not credible when viewed in relationship to history. If anyone were still sitting on top of caches of Confederate wealth then they would probably need to hurry up and get rid of it since simple inflation would have made it almost worthless. A lot of wealth to them wouldn't be much to us.

Those gold and silver coins are worth a thing or two to a collector or museum. "Inflation" only makes them more valuable. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Those gold and silver coins are worth a thing or two to a collector or museum. "Inflation" only makes them more valuable. ^_^

Yeah they would be worth something to a collector, but as far as a cache of wealth which was intended to fund a New Confederacy that would not be enough. Inflation makes anything which you've held previously worth less. Your five dollars spent today is worth more than your five dollars held without accruing interest and spent in ten years. If they truly wanted to hold a large deposit of wealth and use it to fund a New Confederacy then the people hiding it would've hid it in a bank or in bonds and notes. Especially with the U.S. on the brink of a major economic boom. If they were truly hiding all of that gold and wealth and were smart enough to keep it hidden to this day, then they would've been smart enough to put in something which would allow them to actually fund a New Confederacy as inflation grew. A lot more would've gone into it all than just hiding gold away. It's a great story though.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
Yeah they would be worth something to a collector, but as far as a cache of wealth which was intended to fund a New Confederacy that would not be enough. Inflation makes anything which you've held previously worth less. Your five dollars spent today is worth more than your five dollars held without accruing interest and spent in ten years. If they truly wanted to hold a large deposit of wealth and use it to fund a New Confederacy then the people hiding it would've hid it in a bank or in bonds and notes. Especially with the U.S. on the brink of a major economic boom. If they were truly hiding all of that gold and wealth and were smart enough to keep it hidden to this day, then they would've been smart enough to put in something which would allow them to actually fund a New Confederacy as inflation grew. A lot more would've gone into it all than just hiding gold away. It's a great story though.

*smiles* No one said these folks were sensable. There's no sense in funding a new rise of a confederacy in the first place. But the simple fact that the author of the book in question recieved death threats from these very people indicates someone wants something hidden.

There's no 'theory' in that. Said author did research this group and he did find facts to back up his research, and it clearly disturbed someone with a vested interest enough to issue said threats. The facts are there, whether people want to believe them is up to them. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* No one said these folks were sensable. There's no sense in funding a new rise of a confederacy in the first place. But the simple fact that the author of the book in question recieved death threats from these very people indicates someone wants something hidden.

There's no 'theory' in that. Said author did research this group and he did find facts to back up his research, and it clearly disturbed someone with a vested interest enough to issue said threats. The facts are there, whether people want to believe them is up to them. ^_^

Anything I've read about the KGC states that they were very small membership-wise and the organization never lived beyond the Civil War. To me the "death threats" are a theory since I've never met your author friend or read a report of his account. That guy who wrote Behold a Pale Horse or whatever it was called said a lot of things that were unsubstantiated. He did say them though. That other cat (Alex Jones???) who likes to post "ultra secretive video" of the Bohemian Grove ceremony is the same way. Conspiracy theorists will always find some way to make it seem like they have truly stumbled upon some great "unseen" mystery. It's fun and there's a sense of adventure to it. I don't know your friend, but sometimes you have to look at the source of such allegations: Is your friend an accredited researcher? Has he done serious research before? Has he been published in a trade publication? What is his background? Again, I don't know him, but the theory (which from what I can tell has never really been espoused before) sounds a little too convenient in the post-Da Vinci Code era. As if a role were put on a long-dead organization in the hopes that maybe a book could be sold. If the book ever got published I'd be more than happy to read it and have a look. I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and numerous Freemason books even though I don't believe any of that stuff since it never seems to hold up to serious scrutiny. [

EDIT: I'm not trying to be mean by the way. That's the one thing I hate about discussing anything on the internet: you can't hear the tone in the persons voice.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
Anything I've read about the KGC states that they were very small membership-wise and the organization never lived beyond the Civil War. To me the "death threats" are a theory since I've never met your author friend or read a report of his account. That guy who wrote Behold a Pale Horse or whatever it was called said a lot of things that were unsubstantiated. He did say them though. That other cat (Alex Jones???) who likes to post "ultra secretive video" of the Bohemian Grove ceremony is the same way. Conspiracy theorists will always find some way to make it seem like they have truly stumbled upon some great "unseen" mystery. It's fun and there's a sense of adventure to it. I don't know your friend, but sometimes you have to look at the source of such allegations: Is your friend an accredited researcher? Has he done serious research before? Has he been published in a trade publication? What is his background? Again, I don't know him, but the theory (which from what I can tell has never really been espoused before) sounds a little too convenient in the post-Da Vinci Code era. As if a role were put on a long-dead organization in the hopes that maybe a book could be sold. If the book ever got published I'd be more than happy to read it and have a look. I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and numerous Freemason books even though I don't believe any of that stuff since it never seems to hold up to serious scrutiny. [

EDIT: I'm not trying to be mean by the way. That's the one thing I hate about discussing anything on the internet: you can't hear the tone in the persons voice.

Yes to all of the above. And I should note, that this fellows book came out, Ie published, before the Da Vinci code. Its caleld Shadow of the Sentinel. ^_^

I should also note, my dad has no history degree, he's not been published in any historical trade magazines, he's not even had much of a college education. In fact, he grew up as a yorkshire coal miner and left school at age 15. But he has been consulted by the Smithsonian before, and also by folks from several major historical features, including Glory. And is also a fairly well known historian in his own right in reenactor circles.

*smiles* Someone's background, in short, really doesn't mean a whole lot. ^_^

As for Holy Blood, Holy Grail holding up to scrutiny. Who's debunking the books? People with a vested interest in doing so. That being 1) Religious groups and 2) Historians who have a vested interest in their own pet theories and the large grants that come with them. ^_~`

*smiles* I dont assume people on the net are being mean. Im just pointing out alternative possibilties.

Oh yes, were such an organization as the KOC interested in hiding their weath, I submit they would not be using banks and suchlike for two very good reasons. 1) Private ownership of gold in this nation is no longer legal and 2) were they to use banking institutions they would end up being taxed.

Logically, it would follow that an organization dedicated to separating itself from the government in place would wish to have as few connections with said government as possible. Including not supporting it by paying taxes. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yes to all of the above. And I should note, that this fellows book came out, Ie published, before the Da Vinci code. Its caleld Shadow of the Sentinel. ^_^

I should also note, my dad has no history degree, he's not been published in any historical trade magazines, he's not even had much of a college education. In fact, he grew up as a yorkshire coal miner and left school at age 15. But he has been consulted by the Smithsonian before, and also by folks from several major historical features, including Glory. And is also a fairly well known historian in his own right in reenactor circles.

*smiles* Someone's background, in short, really doesn't mean a whole lot. ^_^

As for Holy Blood, Holy Grail holding up to scrutiny. Who's debunking the books? People with a vested interest in doing so. That being 1) Religious groups and 2) Historians who have a vested interest in their own pet theories and the large grants that come with them. ^_~`

*smiles* I dont assume people on the net are being mean. Im just pointing out alternative possibilties.

Oh yes, were such an organization as the KOC interested in hiding their weath, I submit they would not be using banks and suchlike for two very good reasons. 1) Private ownership of gold in this nation is no longer legal and 2) were they to use banking institutions they would end up being taxed.

Logically, it would follow that an organization dedicated to separating itself from the government in place would wish to have as few connections with said government as possible. Including not supporting it by paying taxes. ^_^

Being questioned about a subject in which one is knowledgeable is not the same thing as researching something to arrive at a conclusion about a "mystery." In that case someone's educational and research background is important, much like trusting a company's audit to someone who isn't a CPA (which is illegal anyway). Yes, private ownership of gold is illegal which is another reason why I doubt the KOGC would still be sitting on top of all of that gold in order to use it for future funding. To avoid taxation they could've taken it offshore someplace or, if they were really pro-Southern, put it into a municipal bond somewhere in the South (Tax free baby! ). I checked out that book on Amazon and the description doesn't mention anything about gold which was taken from Confederate coffers, but rather gold acquired from Mexico and Jesse James (who was a murderer and thief, and probably not going to give up whatever he made from robbing people anyway). It just doesn't sound like something which people planning for the future would do. Besides, if they were Southerners they would be smarter than that since we're ALWAYS smarter than Yankees!
The thing about all of the Holy Grail/Da Vinci code stuff is that they never really address the core idea of Christ: Did he die and resurrect? As if he had children that would make the idea of his death and resurrection null and void.

Of course all of this has everything to do with 300.

[Troll Lord]

I'm not sure I can buy the idea of a confederate gold cache. I think they would have used it to fund the armies that were in desparate need of arms and uniforms...especially since we...er, they were so close to kicking the tar out of the yank...er northerneres in the War of Northe...err Civil War!
As for the Templars. I've read a number of books on the history of the ogranization and believe that they were destroyed by the French King, Philip Iv, as he was in need of money and they had it. He was fighting a brutal war in Holland I think and was strapped for cash. Once that happened in France everyone got on the band wagon and wrecked the order.

I'm not real big on conspiracies....as peter knows.

Steve

_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Orpheus]

Troll Lord wrote:
I'm not sure I can buy the idea of a confederate gold cache. I think they would have used it to fund the armies that were in desparate need of arms and uniforms...especially since we...er, they were so close to kicking the tar out of the yank...er northerneres in the War of Northe...err Civil War!
As for the Templars. I've read a number of books on the history of the ogranization and believe that they were destroyed by the French King, Philip Iv, as he was in need of money and they had it. He was fighting a brutal war in Holland I think and was strapped for cash. Once that happened in France everyone got on the band wagon and wrecked the order.

I'm not real big on conspiracies....as peter knows.

Steve

If you look back at a majority of the "religious atrocities" from years ago you'll find that they were perpetrated by political figures using religion as a screen for their activities.

I've got friends who are "conspiracy junkies." I tend to disbelieve them since they pretty much live in a cannabis cloud and are very "I'll-wait-for-the-movie" kind of people (i.e. they don't/can't/won't read...yet they always seem to be brimming with knowledge. ) I know Peter isn't like that at all however so your opinion my dear sir is yours to have.
As for The War of Northern Aggression: The South did rise again in the form of IBM and Coca-Cola. We made them fat off of sugar water and ready to pull their hair out with home computers.

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
Besides, if they were Southerners they would be smarter than that since we're ALWAYS smarter than Yankees!

So glad we agree. Btw, did I mention I was born in Australia? Makes me a real southerner wot? ^_~`

Quote:
The thing about all of the Holy Grail/Da Vinci code stuff is that they never really address the core idea of Christ: Did he die and resurrect? As if he had children that would make the idea of his death and resurrection null and void.

Of course all of this has everything to do with 300.

Now that depends on entirely what books one has read? In several of them, its mentioned that the whole story was in the nature of a 3 shell game pulled on gullable people.

I read compulsively. 4-500 page book a day. No problem. ^_~`

But it still boils down into what one chooses to believe. A mystical figure with inexplicable powers? Or a dynastic king of a hidden bloodline.

Whats more reasonable? Thats something that everyone is going to have to draw their own conclusions on. ^_^

As the immortal Heinlien was wont to quote. "Get the facts!"
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[old school gamer]

johns wrote:
Freemasons of the Caribbean! Naw - it'll never sell. Better stick to pirates.

They can raid various islands while driving around in little cars!

[Geleg]

About Holy Blood, Holy Grail. This book is utter fantasy. There is a difference between arguing from evidence and insinuations. HBHG does the latter.

As a professional historian (that is, an academic one), I can state that 99% of historians do not get 'big grants', let alone 'grants' of any kind. So the comment that 'we' are shaping the past for our own material benefit is pretty much misguided.

Epistemologically speaking, however, Peter is right that, as Carl Becker said (I paraphrase), "Everyone is his/her own historian". Boards like this, knowledgeable amateurs, reenactors, etc, demonstrate the truth of this. And yet what separates history from fiction is a) documentable evidence; and b) convincing arguments. At some point, then, not every opinion is equally valid from the basis of historical methodology (this is the post-modern trap). And, while things like HBHG are entertaining, and are useful in their ability to spark historians into rethinking conventional narratives, they do not meet the epistemological criteria of good history.

Now belief is an entirely different kettle of fish ... What someone chooses to believe is the product of an entirely different set of mental and theoretical processes than what one concludes as history.

G

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
So glad we agree. Btw, did I mention I was born in Australia? Makes me a real southerner wot? ^_~`



Now that depends on entirely what books one has read? In several of them, its mentioned that the whole story was in the nature of a 3 shell game pulled on gullable people.

I read compulsively. 4-500 page book a day. No problem. ^_~`

But it still boils down into what one chooses to believe. A mystical figure with inexplicable powers? Or a dynastic king of a hidden bloodline.

Whats more reasonable? Thats something that everyone is going to have to draw their own conclusions on. ^_^

As the immortal Heinlien was wont to quote. "Get the facts!"

Yes Peter, you are even more Southern than I am! As for the shell game/three card monte thing: I've heard people say things like that before, but I have to ask, "Why?" The twelve Apostles and Christ apparently didn't gain any earthly reward for pulling such a stunt so what would the motive be?

[gideon_thorne]

Geleg wrote:
As a professional historian (that is, an academic one), I can state that 99% of historians do not get 'big grants', let alone 'grants' of any kind. So the comment that 'we' are shaping the past for our own material benefit is pretty much misguided.

True. But its usually the fellows who have the largest grants, ie the historans who are the most 'known', who have the most to lose either financially or reputation wise when someone comes along with a theory which overturns convention.

*smiles* My folks are professional historians in a sense, although neither has a degree in it. Leastways in the 'sense' that they get paid for their research businesswise. They have been recreating history and historical garb for over 30 years for both hobbiests and feature film.

Funny thing though, my dad was hearing about the possibility of the ideas of HBHG when he was a kid long before said book came out. So the information has been out there a long time. Its only today, with the advent of the wide spread and rapid communication of ideas that the theory has reached wide spread audiences.

But for a book that is 'utter fantasy' it sure has a lot of professional historians that defend it. Having read said book, and the subsequent volumes, the books argue theory from a set of gathered information and the authors draw certain conclusions. Whether or not such conclusions are accurate neither the authors nor anyone else can say for certitude, mainly because no one alive today, that we know of, was actually there.
And that, is history in a nutshell. A series of guesswork conclusions often based on sketchy facts. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
I've heard people say things like that before, but I have to ask, "Why?" The twelve Apostles and Christ apparently didn't gain any earthly reward for pulling such a stunt so what would the motive be?

*smiles* As to that, what does one gain when pulling a fast one on a populace? Well, that should be obvious. Power and influence. Which obviously was profound in both cases. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* As to that, what does one gain when pulling a fast one on a populace? Well, that should be obvious. Power and influence. Which obviously was profound in both cases. ^_^

Oh yes, all of that power and influence that the perpetrators gained after pulling it off. When one of the things which Christ said was, "As they have hated me they shall hate you also." Kind of an auspicious beginning to an empire looking for subjects. Let's not forget about those lovely lions as well. If anyone quested after power and influence it is not to be found in what Christ taught. Now as for religious organizations today that may be a different matter.

[johns]

I would go further and say that the value of Jesus' message is little tarnished by who he was, whether he fathered children, etc. And while none of these little details really matter (to the faithful or those without faith), I would also submit that they are probably not proveable one way or the other, given the amount of time that has passed. I mean, aside from Father Guido Sarducci's receipt from the Last Supper, how much documentation could have survived?

[gideon_thorne]

*smiles* Well, the focus in the last two posts have veered from a scholarly standpoint so perhaps a change in topic..

Anyone who enjoyed the movie 300, ought to check out David Gemmell's novels. He does a mix of history and story that certainly engages an interest in further research. He even did a few bits on Sparta and the 300 battle. Lion of Macedon and Dark Prince come to mind as the novels that contain such.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Well, the focus in the last two posts have veered from a scholarly standpoint so perhaps a change in topic..

Sorry, I wasn't trying to stir up a religious debate. I was simply trying to provide some rationale as to why any theories surrounding the "pulling a fast one" theory would lack merit.