300

All topics including role playing games, board games, etc., etc.
User avatar
Geleg
Ulthal
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Greensboro, NC

Post by Geleg »

Quote:
True. But its usually the fellows who have the largest grants, ie the historans who are the most 'known', who have the most to lose either financially or reputation wise when someone comes along with a theory which overturns convention.

Again, this does not represent the historical profession that I know. In my department a book is required for tenure, but only one person in my department has ever received a 'large grant', and that was 15 years ago. So while we are all influencing the profession through our published work, none of us is 'threatened' by the loss of income since we do not receive large grants. It is true that we make middle class incomes, but our salaries are protected by academic freedom, such that my raises (when I get them) are not dependent either on what I say or what others say about me. What I'm saying is that we have little to lose 'reputation'- or financial-wise when a new theory comes along.

Don't get me wrong, I like new theories. I even like some of the brouhaha raised by HBHG. It is important, however, to carefully distinguish what we are talking about here; my saying that HBHG is fantasy does not automatically mean that I am claiming that the Vulgate is 'history'. After all, one of the apocryphal gospels does suggest that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were an 'item'. From purely logical perspectives that is not hard to accept (i.e., that a holy man of the first century AD might - might, I say - have been married). It is also undeniably true that a certain faction in the early Christian community won the battle of rhetoric in how to shape the meaning of Jesus' ministry (e.g. Council of Nicaea). In this Peter is certainly right that a) the victors shape the past; b) history is all about interpretation. One could certainly perform some interesting critical investigation of the canonical gospels as history (and this has been done, and ably).

But it is a large step to move from admitting the epistemological problems in interpreting early christianity and Jesus' place in it, to making an argument which alleges a continent- and millennium-spanning conspiracy (as does HBHG). The part of this work which is most 'fantastic' has to do with the 'survival' of Jesus and Mary M. and the connection of the Merovingian dynasty to Christ's lineage (and thence to the Templars). This has been ably disproven by numerous 'objective' historians. Nor does it suffice to say that people 'knew' of this before HBHG was published. Historical methodology requires evidence from the period - not later fantasy, wishful thinking, or conspiracy theory - to demonstrate such links.

I fear we are drifting into increasingly acrimonious territory, so I'll shut up.

Back to other topics, like how great C&C is!!!

Geleg
My C&C campaign journal: Hard Times in Narsileon http://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtop ... 22&t=11032
My OSRIC/1e campaign journal: Expedition to Arden Vul http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 26&t=59080

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Orpheus wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't trying to stir up a religious debate. I was simply trying to provide some rationale as to why any theories surrounding the "pulling a fast one" theory would lack merit.

*smiles* I'll be happy to discuss that direction via pm or at a convention somewhere, but I've seen such topics go no where fast on message forums. So I avoid em like acid rain. ^_^

Anyhow. I just started reading the latest Gemmell work called Troy: Lord of the Silver Bow. Its a nice pseudo alternate history story. The thing about said authors works is that they dont go in the direction one expects for even semi historical. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Troll Lord
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am

Post by Troll Lord »

I want to emphasize one of Geleg's points, if not several of them. Having gone through the post graduate history program at UoA I was brought up to speed on a great deal of historical methods. History is like a science and 'facts' have to be supported by evidence, otherwise it is just supposition. There are a variety of methods to validate facts and a wide variety of sources both primary and secondary, however, it goes beyond that. You have to look at the historian as well and find out where he is coming from.

All this babble about Sparta reminded me how much I've forgotten since I read up on that very small city state whose CITIZEN body never amounted to much more than 9000 men. So I dug around in my book shelves to see what I had on hand. I found three books on Sparta, 4 on ancient greece, 1 on Thermoplae. I thumbed through them to glean what I could at a glance and remind myself of what I knew or didn't know I had forgotten. I got in one entitled "A History of Sparta 950-192 B.C." by W. G. Forrest. I read this in college back in the day and my scribbled notes were all over it. Ignoring the ignorance of a 20 year old do nothing I got into the text and read it throughout (I had to set aside Vol. IV of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire for those of you who are wondering). I finished the book last night. Throughout, even in the beginning of the book, Forrest took a harsh view of Sparta. VERY HARSH. Hammering their institutions, their society and military. It was GOOD history, he spends a huge amount of time exploring the sources for said history, which is good. His narrative very good as well if occassionally a little convoluted. However, his tone continued to be hyper critical of everything Spartan, especially their military victories. Also (and he spent time explaining that he would do this) he would fill in the blanks with theory...which is okay, since he said it was his theory.

But I wonder about half way through the book about the historian. Especially his comments after the Persians were defeated at Plaetae wherein he described teh Spartans as bumbling into victory. I read on. At the books end, as he was discussing Sparta's sad state of affairs, decling populatin etc he discussed several revolutions that took place, spending a bit of energy on the final reformer, a regent by the name of Nabis. This regent, according to Forrest, is described by ALL the sources as a foul creature who murdered his ward and brought in armies of mercenaries into Sparta.

But, Forrest, goes to mat for the guy. Despite his source material, portraying him as someone who re-distributed the land to the "needy" (his word and to his mercenaries. He then says: "This could have been part of a general redistribution of land but nothing is said of it" ie, in the sources. I thought to myself...hhmmm?

"He set free many slaves (helots are not specifically mentioned but may be intended)" .... again with the commentary contrary to the sources. I thought to myself, this guy sounds like a socialist!

"And these moves, perhaps with others we hear nothing of (abolotion of debts for example), were enough to give him eager support of an army some 10000 strong".

Okay. That was enough. Now's he's just making crap up. When a historian does this, and they do almost always, there is a reason.

I finished the book and then got on the net to find out who Forrest was. Turns out he is a HIGHLY accredited historian from Oxford. This was not surprising at all. The history is good, reliance on source material good as well...except where he has a point to make. But, it turns out, that Forrest was a tremendous advocate of Greek liberty in the 1960s and 1970s and a very outspoken political liberal in England (is that a socialist? I'm not sure of my English political labels). His passion was fighting the Greek Military Junta that controlled the country in the 60s and 70s. Suddenly the whole anti-spartan, anti-military approach was understood.

This sentence captured it all. It was a direct comment to the government of greece who I imagine was using sparta as a propogand tool: "And these moves, perhaps with others we hear nothing of (abolotion of debts for example), were enough to give him eager support of an army some 10000 strong".

GREECE!!! REFORM!! Your army will be stronger, like the Spartans were.

This is all cool. Historians are people too. Had I known this BEFORE I read the book, I would have enjoyed it more and gotten more out of it as I would be able to discern when the gentlemen scholar was becoming passionate...land reform etc.

So my lesson, learned years ago, was reinforced: just because he's a fellow at harvard doesn't mean he can't be wrong. Just because its written down and sources quoted, doesn't mean its right. Nor does it mean its wrong. We have to be discerning in our material. Read many perspectives and come to our own conclusions. I agree with Forrest's comments that Sparta was the first state to accept that "all CITIZENS were equals" and forged a path for Greece and the world. I agree that Spartans were easy to corrupt when the went abroad and the "SPARTAN" ideal lasted only when Spartans dealt wit Spartans and other various points. I disagree that they bumbled there way through countless military victories. That is hard to do.

I'm going wrap up Gibbons now, I begin reading teh sources on ancient greece (I have recently come to love reading about ancient Rome and Greece), beginning with Herodotus.

Now back to work!

Steve

_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com
_____________________________
He Who Sits on the Elephants Back
The Troll Lord
Steve Chenault, President & CEO of Chenault & Gray Publishing, Troll Lord Games

User avatar
Orpheus
Ulthal
Posts: 738
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Orpheus »

Troll Lord wrote:
Now back to work!

Right....

johns
Red Cap
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am

Post by johns »

It sounds to me like you should produce an Ancient World campaign setting for C&C. After the thirty or forty other books you've promised, of course.

User avatar
Tadhg
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10817
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Post by Tadhg »

johns wrote:
It sounds to me like you should produce an Ancient World campaign setting for C&C.

Hehe, check out Tagea in the Codex of Erde (page 132) for some interesting!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

User avatar
Lurker
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4102
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Location: Oklahoma

Post by Lurker »

Quote:
Hehe, check out Tagea in the Codex of Erde (page 132) for some interesting!

That will teach me to just flip through new books (I ordered Erde last month) when I's suposed to be studying. I should give up studying (I don't want to be a MSgt anyway) and read the book whole. Nice historic link! Let me guess the soldier all wear read cloaks/capes....
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Geleg wrote:
What I'm saying is that we have little to lose 'reputation'- or financial-wise when a new theory comes along.

*smiles* But what I am getting at, is that reputation is very important to some, and that they will defend it vigorously. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence. For examples, see the daily news on pretty much any popular subject.
Quote:
I fear we are drifting into increasingly acrimonious territory, so I'll shut up.

Geleg

No acrimony here, I never let differences of opinion bother me. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Geleg
Ulthal
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Greensboro, NC

Post by Geleg »

Nice points, steve. you should go for the PhD. You've got the analytical bit down cold.

We've derailed this thread long enough with epistemology.

I'm ready to return to a "300 is cool" perspective and shove the historical stuff into the background.

Geleg
My C&C campaign journal: Hard Times in Narsileon http://www.trolllord.com/forums/viewtop ... 22&t=11032
My OSRIC/1e campaign journal: Expedition to Arden Vul http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 26&t=59080

User avatar
Tadhg
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10817
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Post by Tadhg »

Say, has anyone read or perused the book? It sure got some great reviews on Amazon.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

If someone gets upset in such a topic is it called e-pissed-temology?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Tadhg
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10817
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Post by Tadhg »

gideon_thorne wrote:
If someone gets upset in such a topic is it called e-pissed-temology?

Heh, or he's-pissed-temology!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Col_Pladoh
Ulthal
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Col_Pladoh »

Hey Steve!

Ask Peter how he liked 300
Gary

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Hey Steve!

Ask Peter how he liked 300
Gary

I like it just fine. I just thought it could use a few improvements. And I stand by that opinion. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Col_Pladoh
Ulthal
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Col_Pladoh »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I like it just fine. I just thought it could use a few improvements. And I stand by that opinion. ^_~`

Wonder of wonders!

Next thing will be your disavowal of cloud cockoo-land politics
Cheerio,

Gary

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Wonder of wonders!

Cheerio,

Gary

*chuckles* I've never indicated any dislike of the film. But from a pure technical standpoint I'd have appreciated more 'story' myself. Praps a couple of soldiers waxing campfire talk on various of the other cultures indicated in the film? Certainly a longer 'tent' scene with the ladies. Things of that nature.
Quote:
Next thing will be your disavowal of cloud cockoo-land politics

I did that decades ago when I eschewed political parties. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

Post Reply