Troll Lord Games

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:46 pm

Yeah, the evil bastards were the progenitors of global warming too.

Damn them.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:48 pm

Catweazle wrote:
What is it with the Spartan-worship these days, anyway?

*chuckles* I dont think its the culture so much as the more Conan "Lets thump all our problems with a stick to make em go away" mentality. Most everyone has a secret or not so secret desire to be a burly barbarian with nakid women fawning on them.

Its the inner caveman surfacing.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:59 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* I dont think its the culture so much as the more Conan "Lets thump all our problems with a stick to make em go away" mentality. Most everyone has a secret or not so secret desire to be a burly barbarian with nakid women fawning on them.

Its the inner caveman surfacing.

Barbarian, yes; Spartan, no

johns · Post by **johns** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:20 pm

"Inner caveman"?

First of all, I'm not exactly in love with your tone right now.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:22 pm

johns wrote:
"Inner caveman"?

First of all, I'm not exactly in love with your tone right now.

I love those commercials. Second favorite: the Slowskys.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:51 pm

Orpheus wrote:
I love those commercials.

So you know... those "cavemen" are getting their own TV show. No joke. Probably mid-season replacement show for 2008.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:59 pm

I'm just a caveman. Your ways are strange and frighten me. I don't know if that's a telephone or if you've trapped someone in a hellish prison and are only letting their voice escape... I'm just a caveman. But one thing I do know is that 300 is a decent flick, but not something I'm going to spend money on watching again.

Oh, and 5 bonus points if you know the caveman...

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:01 pm

serleran wrote:
I'm just a caveman. Your ways are strange and frighten me. I don't know if that's a telephone or if you've trapped someone in a hellish prison and are only letting their voice escape... I'm just a caveman. But one thing I do know is that 300 is a decent flick, but not something I'm going to spend money on watching again.

Oh, and 5 bonus points if you know the caveman...

Caveman Lawyer?

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:07 pm

Omote wrote:
So you know... those "cavemen" are getting their own TV show. No joke. Probably mid-season replacement show for 2008.

............................................Omote

FPQ

Ha! I just looked that up. They're setting it in Atlanta. It'll probably more authentic than Designing Women.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:10 pm

Yeah. Too easy, hence its low value.

5 whopping points awarded!

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:12 pm

serleran wrote:
Yeah. Too easy, hence its low value. 5 whopping points awarded!

Sweet! I only need 35 more for that secret decoder ring.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:12 pm

Catweazle wrote:
I can't agree with the "Spartans are the highest achievement of our species" line at all. "Slave-herding xenophobic fascists" is about the most polite terminology I can come up with.

I'm guessing there was a little sarcasm in my tone...as there is now!

Catweazle wrote:
What is it with the Spartan-worship these days, anyway? I mean, are we really saying that life is perfect when one lives in a militaristic, hyperfascist state? That an absolute monarchy is the best form of government? That keeping entire peoples subjugated, and preying upon them in acts of random mass-murder to keep them cowed is both natural and laudable? That women are inferior forms of life?

And this from an AMERICAN? What the Hell happened to "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." and "Liberty and Justice for All"?

Well foremost I would argue your point that it was an absolute monarchy. Sparta had a form of democracy, granted not one that gave an equal voice to everyone who happened to be standing in the shade of the Spartan trees.

From the Athenian sources, which are our only real primary source material for understanding Spartan society, we are told that they routinely butchered their own slaves (the helots) and generall maltreated anyone not directly Spartan. We have to question this source material to some degree as it certainly was biased (much as we question the same source material about the battle of Thermopolae (sic), when the Athenia historian describes the Persians as being slaughtered in their 10s of thousands). I have often wondered at this as it doesn't ring entirely true. The helots fought alongside their Spartan masters on a number of occassions. My guess is that the middle ground is the safe ground. Helots were abused regularly, but being property they were not butchered routinely or horribly mistreated. They probably held second rank in a highly heirarchial society which put them at an extreme disadvantage and completely disenfranchised.

Sparta definately had democratic tendencies as all males could vote on the policy set out by the assembly of nobles and the dual-kings. The dual kings ruled separate spheres, one the military, the other the state. The one could not act without the other, for one held the purse, one the army. But the army was loyal to Sparta. There was deep religious aspects to this government as well. So to lump it in with the fascist states is a bit of a misnomer. All the fascist states were run by dictators voted into office by their own policitical machines. Sparta though not as democratic as Athens (nor did its governement into a brutal tyranny as the Athenians did), definately had some shades of representative government.

And intersetingly women, Spartan women, were forced to have an eduction. They could not vote, nor own property I think.

Catweazle wrote:
Or doesn't anyone believe in these things any more?

Sure we do. But there are people (read: me), to express gideons point, who respect what the Spartans stood for . . . not just a blatant militarism, but for other virtues that our own forefathers cherished: discipline, loyalty, strength of character, the ability to take action, etc

In today's world action is rediculed, we are constantly forming committees, groups, think tanks, gatherings, and whatever else we can think of to make sure everything gets expressed and it seems little or nothing gets done. We are akin to the Byzantine Empire, that talked alot, did little until it faded from history.

And further, why is the humanist point of view the height of evolutionary progress? Is action and the resulting wars truly a throwback to the barbarians? Or could it be that through strength of arms man can achieve that greatest of all states: liberty, freedom and justice for all.

No better example exists than the civil war in Sierra Leon where the RUF terrorized the populaction for six long years, killing countless thousands. The gov. was unable to stop them. But in 1996 they hired a band of several hundred elit, highly trained soldiers of fortune, who promptly destroyed the RUF and sent them back to the hills (the mercs got well paid for this by the by). The gov. then canceled their contract, the UN moved in to take over. The RUF regrouped attacked and killed tens of thousands of people while the UN did nothing.

But this of course runs the risk of military dictatorships, which in the end can do nothing but supress liberty. So what to do? Perhaps a dual kingship like the Spartans? It seemed to work for them at some point.

But that is why we admire them.They are strong and decisive. And in an age like ours where we see our leaders (both sides of the fence boyos) waffle back and forth like a flag in a hurricane, we are left wondering when it will end and where it will end.

Catweazle wrote:
Damn, I'm harping at people again. I don't come on here planning to do it, but some things just punch buttons with me. Look, just think about it, OK?

Haha. We all have buttons my friend and your post was not at all offensive. Never worry for that! You and your posts are welcome.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:01 pm

"Strength wins wars, wisdom wins the peace."

From the Journals of the Masterbard. (aka one of my own characters)
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:00 am

Troll Lord wrote:
From the Athenian sources, which are our only real primary source material for understanding Spartan society, *snip*

Sparta definately had democratic tendencies as all males could vote on the policy set out by the assembly of nobles and the dual-kings. The dual kings ruled separate spheres, one the military, the other the state.

Interesting post Steve. I know that you are well informed on this and other periods of history. So many things come back to me after reading your post w/regard to ancient history . . . Lycurgus among others.

Anywho, a quick search on Yahoo reminds me that some think Sparta had the first democracy, albeit one that contained elements of monarchy and oligarchy as well, mentioned here:
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture6b.html

Here's a site dedicated to the so called first democracy:
http://www.elysiumgates.com/~helena/Revolution.html

It's funny about things that you haven't thought about in so many years, suddenly can come tumbling out of the vortexes of one's mind . . .
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:31 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
"Strength wins wars, wisdom wins the peace."

From the Journals of the Masterbard. (aka one of my own characters)

Do you get a "Bonus to Befriend" for a high Wisdom?

cleaverthepit · Post by **cleaverthepit** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:21 am

Of course Sparta, the Spartans and the Battle at the Hot Gates are currently popular. The Battle of Thermopolye is a defining moment in western history. It is a podal event and crops up every time the east and west clash (as well as during highly confrontational times.)

Barbaric? Fascist?

Spartan

davis

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:13 pm

Steve you said it much mo better than I, especially as yesterday I was typing in a mind fog. If I ever get leave to head back home I'll have to buy you a good cold one or 3! -but with my opstemp & looming PCS it might be a few years.....

My "belief" in the perfection of Sparta" is also slightly sarcasm. They did gret things, they did things that were the norm for their day & evil in our time, and some horid things ( to me the worst is NO ART! With that law there would never have been M's David, no Mona Lisa, & no paintings of the perfect sunset. Evil evil evil!)

Quote:
From the Athenian sources, which are our only real primary source material for understanding Spartan society, we are told that they routinely butchered their own slaves (the helots) and generall maltreated anyone not directly Spartan. We have to question this source material to some degree as it certainly was biased

Most of what we believe of Sparta came after their war with Athens and as Athans had lost, but as their culture out lasted the Spartins it was popular to paint them as bad in all ways. That forgets the fact that till the war most city states sent their sons (yes only sons as in ALL Greek states only men were citizens) to each others cities to learn from each other.

"helots" thakns I couldn't remember the word. Yes some of them fought along side the Spartens as pelist & other "light fighters". If they were worthy thay were made citizens. The war effort takes lots of bodies.

Quote:
Sparta though not as democratic as Athens (nor did its governement into a brutal tyranny as the Athenians did), definately had some shades of representative government.

Bingo Sparta was also not nearly as corrupt or corruptable

Quote:
Sure we do. But there are people (read: me), to express gideons point, who respect what the Spartans stood for . . . not just a blatant militarism, but for other virtues that our own forefathers cherished: discipline, loyalty, strength of character, the ability to take action, etc

In today's world action is rediculed, we are constantly forming committees, groups, think tanks, gatherings, and whatever else we can think of to make sure everything gets expressed and it seems little or nothing gets done. We are akin to the Byzantine Empire, that talked alot, did little until it faded from history.

And further, why is the humanist point of view the height of evolutionary progress? Is action and the resulting wars truly a throwback to the barbarians? Or could it be that through strength of arms man can achieve that greatest of all states: liberty, freedom and justice for all.

No better example exists than the civil war in Sierra Leon where the RUF terrorized the populaction for six long years, killing countless thousands. The gov. was unable to stop them. But in 1996 they hired a band of several hundred elit, highly trained soldiers of fortune, who promptly destroyed the RUF and sent them back to the hills (the mercs got well paid for this by the by). The gov. then canceled their contract, the UN moved in to take over. The RUF regrouped attacked and killed tens of thousands of people while the UN did nothing.

I'm a Airman soldier so can't agree more. Having seen the whole gambet from UN, NATO, regular military (from many countries) & the cream of the crop from said countries. I admire a country like sparta & their military. A

Crossing the line into a dictatorship is the greatest waist of a civilization. A soldier that is willing to risk his life for the man to the left & right is a true soldier but honestly will not be a good leader & would be easily fooled or would become a dictator.

I admire the old SGM & CMSgt I've worked with & Col I've served. I don not admire any of the leaders today. That to adds to the romatic belief of sparta.

Quote:
Catweazle wrote:

Damn, I'm harping at people again. I don't come on here planning to do it, but some things just punch buttons with me. Look, just think about it, OK?

You harp & I'll get on the soap box & ideas will flow. We might not be in lock step but it scares me when I hear something that everyone is in lockstep with ! Then we can both mock people that think "americian Idol" is something worth talking about! It is even better when there is a cool pint to pass around or some good red vino...

You all have a good one!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

johns · Post by **johns** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:25 pm

Brandon totally got screwed by the voters. Yeah, he flubbed his lines, but he was still better than Sanjay.

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:13 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
As I recall from my history lessons, there was very little if any democracy in Persia.

That's just one of the wonderful things about Persia.
_________________
Pied Piper Publishing - Rob Kuntz's Pathways to Enchantment
Castle Zagyg - Yggsburgh Expansions

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:52 pm

Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something.

Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?

Any government will work if authority and responsibility are equal and coordinate. This does not insure "good" government; it simply insures that it will work. But such governments are rare--most people want to run things but want no part of the blame: This used to be called the "backseat-driver syndrome."

From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long (Heinlien)
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:18 pm

Quote:
From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long (Heinlien)

on of my favoriate writers.....

How did we get from a movie based on a graphic novel about a battle 2,500ish years ago to Heinlien?
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

johns · Post by **johns** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:39 pm

There are a multitude of topics that can lead to Heinlein.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:48 pm

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."

Yay! You too can be a quotist.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:24 pm

Lurker wrote:
on of my favoriate writers.....

How did we get from a movie based on a graphic novel about a battle 2,500ish years ago to Heinlien?

I have a mawkish sense of humor, is how. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:57 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
Interesting post Steve. I know that you are well informed on this and other periods of history. So many things come back to me after reading your post w/regard to ancient history . . . Lycurgus among others.

Anywho, a quick search on Yahoo reminds me that some think Sparta had the first democracy, albeit one that contained elements of monarchy and oligarchy as well, mentioned here:

It's funny about things that you haven't thought about in so many years, suddenly can come tumbling out of the vortexes of one's mind . . .

Yes indeed, and somewhere I read that they are the only Greek State who had a consistant form of government from its inception to the point of its fall (under Rome I assume).

Good sites! I've got a couple of good books around here on the Spartans, but they aren't very long as we have to piece their history together. Here is an interesting tid bit, no Spartan Citizen could be a merchant or artisan, nor could they have money of any kind. That would be rockin! Politicians without money or the possibility of getting money???? What would teh folks in Washington do? haahah

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:15 pm

I'm with you Catweazle. I find the glorification of Sparta to be an interesting phenomenon of the present, especially in the US. While it is true that an early democracy grew up in Greece (in certain areas), Sparta was not a major contributor to that (except maybe as part of an agon). Remember, Sparta enslaved most of the Pelopponese; the helots were treated far worse than the subject peoples of the Persian Empire (indeed, the Persian empire was remarkably tolerant of differing religions and languages, so long as you obeyed the satrap and payed taxes).

True, 300 is only a movie, and an action movie at that. It is meant to entertain. And it does. I for one cannot wait to see it. I will be totally geeked with adrenalin when I emerge.

But what bothers me about it is the very large proportion of people who come away from quasi-historical films thinking that they've learned something about the past. Yes, they may have learned something, but it's generally not about the past; it's more about what modern America wants to say about itself. This important distinction is often lost.

My gripe is that it shouldn't be so difficult to represent the past in a more faithful manner (acknowleding of course that no single interpretation will please all people) while still making an entertaining action film. Why do scriptwriters feel the need to alter the past in fundamental ways to please modern audiences (I've got Gladiator in mind here - the real demise of Commodus was far more exciting and interesting than the one shown in the movie, which is utterly laughable as 'history')? Why change ageless stories that have entertained thousands for millenia (I'm looking at you, Troy! Menelaus killed in the pillaging? What bullsh-t). And, in the case of 300, how would it have hurt Miller's story to inject a bit of social and political realism? Let's not even talk about Braveheart! [mind you, I enjoy all of these films - except Troy - as films. Indeed, they're all memorable movies which I will re-watch many times]

I realize that this kind of rant is like shouting into the wind. So rather than be critical at greater length, I'll close with two philosophical queries:

1. Should artists who deal with the past have some obligation to represent the past in a manner faithful to that past?

2. Why do human beings like to project the values of the present onto the peoples and situations of the past?

[i.e., Mel Gibson's cries for 'freedom' in Braveheart; 300's presentation of Greek 'freeom' as analagous to modern liberal values; even all of medieval Arthurian romance couched in the clothes and social values of the period in which it was written, not in the period in which it purported to occur]

I don't expect answers. These are merely questions that this threat has me musing about ...

Still geeking to see 300, despite all that I've said,

Geleg

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:29 pm

Geleg wrote:
Why do scriptwriters feel the need to alter the past in fundamental ways to please modern audiences

Why? Cause if history was presented accurately it would offend all kinds of people. There is a lot of careful glossing over in academic as well as governmental circles the 'history' of a given event or thing. ^_~`

Never was a statement more accurate than 'The victors write the histories.'

It's only the true impartial scholar (like me) who wants to know real facts. Most people are happy with their comfortable illusions about 'what really happened' to be bothered. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

johns · Post by **johns** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:46 pm

A couple posters have asked why modern Americans are glorifying Sparta. May I add to this discussion - WHAT?!

Yeah, everywhere I go - gas stations, shopping malls, the park - all you hear are Americans talking about how great Sparta was. Come on guys, scads of people going to watch an action flick does not a major social movement make.

I think the only large group of Americans in love with Spartans probably live in or around East Lansing, Michigan.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:48 pm

ah, Peter, but you're talking about political manipulation. That's not what I'm getting at ... I'm talking about popular entertainment. It is "only" entertainment, but as you know perfectly well, sometimes the only history people get is through popular entertainment. So, since there is no cui bono offered to explain why screenwriters mangle the past (unlike with politicians or, as you suggest, academics), there has to be another explanation. So my rhetorical question remains something like 'do we in the present have an obligation to represent the past faithfully?'. If the answer is no, then history as a field collapses, whether it is academic or popular (because we can alter stories as we like to fit our own needs - no need to reesarch that dissertation, just make up a story that works for you and your readers). If the answer is yes, then filmmakers and screenwriters need to pay a bit more attention to these things. I mean if you want to make a fictional movie about gladiators, fine - just don't use Commodus as a character. If you want to make a fictional movie about Greeks fighting Persian, invent an episode from the Anabasis and go to it! I'll be the first in line at the box office. But when you inject real people into the story, and then consciously distort how they act and think, aren't you doing a disservice to those who get their dose of the past solely through film? If you're going to do fantasy, do fantasy (like Conan or something). If you're going to do history or even quasi-history, maybe you should pay some attention to what actually happened in the past.

Remember all the howls about JFK?

Or, let's take another hypothetical example. Let's say I want to make a film about the life of Abe Lincoln. I think that the assassination isn't dramatic enough, and my focus group likes mano y mano comabt. So I write a screenplay in which Booth's gun misfires, and the two roll off the balcony, onto the stage, and proceed to beat each other into a pulp, using lots of kewl props until Booth finally does his thing and escapes. Sure I have the right to change this story in this way. But shouldn't I have some sort of inner obligation to represent this story more faithfully?

Anyway, I'm not really trying to be contentious. I just find these kinds of questions interesting. And I really find it interesting how we in the US want to imagine that values that are fundamental to our culture were equally dominant in past times, even when they clearly were not.

my 50-cents ... (yeah, Fiddy, baby!)

G

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:00 pm

Geleg wrote:
ah, Peter, but you're talking about political manipulation. That's not what I'm getting at ... I'm talking about popular entertainment.

There's a difference? ^_^

*smiles* What it boils down to is not offending people, as I said. It takes a brave writer/director to put something forth these days and stand against the litigious nature of individuals and organizations.

I find it hard to fathom how anyone could take something done by a comic book writer as 'historical' anyhow. But then again I've always been a bit odd.
Sides, my folks have worked with Hollywierd a time or two, making historical costumes. And I can state with certainty that movie film makers, for the most part, are not in the least interested in historical accuracy. They are interested in over the top and flashy. In short, what sells to the widest audience.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley