300

[Treebore]

Even historians cannot agree on which "history" is true. If you read a lot of books on something even recent, say the Civil War, or WW2, you'll find conflicting accounts on what really happened.

I mean look at how people are trying to revise the reality of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, and why it was done, etc...

As for Thermopalye (sp?) there were thousands holding back the Persians before the final battle on the last day, and even then there were at least 1,300, not 300.

So what I like about movies like "300", Troy, etc... is that it hopefully inspires many people to read up on the real history, and hopefully realize even historians don't know what really happened with any real degree of certainty.

For an example, they still can't agree on exactly how large Xerxes army was, or how many he lost to the Spartan/Greek Army. Those numbers range from conservative estimates of 10 to 20 thousand up to a 100 thousand or more. His Army was anywhere from 80 thousand to a couple of hundred thousand, maybe even a million.

So even "real history" needs to be read and learned with a healthy dose of skepticism. Let alone what is seen at the movies.

[gideon_thorne]

jman5000 wrote:
lol,

any scene in which Rebecca Romijn-Stamos looks anything other than uber hot.

implausible I tell you, outlandish even!!!

Cheers,

J.

*chuckles* Some girls look good in blue. Hey, for all the Trek Fans, there are quite a few that look good in green too.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

Treebore wrote:
Even historians cannot agree on which "history" is true. If you read a lot of books on something even recent, say the Civil War, or WW2, you'll find conflicting accounts on what really happened.

I mean look at how people are trying to revise the reality of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan, and why it was done, etc...

As for Thermopalye (sp?) there were thousands holding back the Persians before the final battle on the last day, and even then there were at least 1,300, not 300.

So what I like about movies like "300", Troy, etc... is that it hopefully inspires many people to read up on the real history, and hopefully realize even historians don't know what really happened with any real degree of certainty.

For an example, they still can't agree on exactly how large Xerxes army was, or how many he lost to the Spartan/Greek Army. Those numbers range from conservative estimates of 10 to 20 thousand up to a 100 thousand or more. His Army was anywhere from 80 thousand to a couple of hundred thousand, maybe even a million.

So even "real history" needs to be read and learned with a healthy dose of skepticism. Let alone what is seen at the movies.

Take "Kingdom of Heaven" IMNSHO one of the best movies on the crusades ever. But it wasn't accurate and there were tones and undertones in it I do not think were present then. And I really couldn't stomach the Templars being made out to be warmongering evil doers*.

However, it did make me want to learn more about the crusades and what really happened. But again which history do I read? Ancient accounts where the Europeans were good saviors? Arabic accounts where the white devils came and hurt the good Arabs? Or recent accounts where they were all supersticious zealots that commited atrocity after atrocity?

And Sparta worship? Naw, I'd rather be a viking.
* Note: my Knowledge of the Templars is limited but I do not feel that the mentality in KoH was accurate.
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[Treebore]

That stuff about the Templars comes from them controlling a lot of wealth that Popes were jealous of, combined with demonic symbology found in bas reliefs within some of their key temples.

Whether or not they were demonic woshippers is still something far from proven.

Greedy money grubbers? Probably.

As far as what to read to find out "true" history is to read several different authors/sources covering the same subject and then use your best guesses as to what you think is the truth. Your opinion/thoughts will be just as viable as anyone elses.

Even letters, like from Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc... don't help to tell the whole story. Just parts of it, so you read what you can/want, then decide where you think the truth lies.

Obviously, a lot of the big truths, such as who won which war, are proven, so the differences come up with the finer points, such as how many were killed, etc...

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
That stuff about the Templars comes from them controlling a lot of wealth that Popes were jealous of, combined with demonic symbology found in bas reliefs within some of their key temples.

Whether or not they were demonic woshippers is still something far from proven.

Meh, the Templars had naught to do with demon worship. The horned being they venerated was simply one aspect of a male/female aspected diety.

The French govt and the pope just needed an excuse to wrest the economic control of europe away from said Templars.
_________________
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Peter Bradley

[old school gamer]

I think what the movie was also trying to present was that the Spartans, and by extension all of Greece, represented a new way of living and looking at life. They had some form of democracy in an age where that didn't exist. They had decided to utilize knowledge and reason. They were trying to look forward to a more intelligent, sophisticated and civilized standard of life.

The Persians were potrayed as using slaves for most of thier soldiers. They reveled in decadence and immorality. They had an autocratic dictatorship whose ruler demanded not just obediance but worship as well.

The Spartans, particularly the 300 were none of these. They were brutal, hard, and uh, spartan in thier lifestyle but they at least aspired to a higher ideal. That has to count for something.

Oh, and the movie rocked ass.

[Geleg]

mission accomplished! Epistemological chaos on the TLG boards ....!

much Love,

Dispater

Seriously, it's interesting to hear all the different perspectives people have. I'm not sure my own opinions have changed much, but that's the usual way of it on message boards!

Geleg

[Omote]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Take "Kingdom of Heaven" IMNSHO one of the best movies on the crusades ever.

While a fantastic movie (I mean the director's cut which is literally 1000x better then the theatrical release, being almost 60 minutes longer - and all better) the director said that he was more interested in creating a "world" then historical accuracy. Ridley Scott said as much on the DVD extras of the KoH Director's Cut. He admitted that they took a lot of liberties in depicting the Templars as raging homicidal maniacs. However, he chose to present on film one theory of the templars during the decline of the Christian Holy Kingdoms.

...................................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Geleg]

My main gripe about KoH is the basic premise: blacksmith becomes lord, wins heart of queen, they both give up the noble life to live simply as peasants.

This is, of course, the classic American story (see Horatio Alger, et al.). The little guy can make it by perseverance and hard work; what is more, the simple values (of crushing poverty and marginal starvation!) are better than the devious world of rich nobles.

No medieval person would have recognized this story as possible in any shape or form.

The battle scenes were pretty good, as was the armor and weapons and stuff. It's just that the ethos and mindset were, once again, those of contemporary America, not the 12th century.

Edit: I forgot to say that I enjoyed the move, despite my critiques. I see it as fantasy, though.

G

[Omote]

Geleg wrote:
It's just that the ethos and mindset were, once again, those of contemporary America, not the 12th century.

Edit: I forgot to say that I enjoyed the move, despite my critiques. I see it as fantasy, though.

Fantasy - for sure. Good looking fantasy too. And also you make a good evaluation of the "contemporary America mindset." For sure this movie was made so that it could make money, and the only way to make money is to make it enjoyable to american audiences. So, Geleg, I agree with you 100%.
...........................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Troll Lord]

miller6 wrote:
Actually, IMHO the coriography of the fight scenes was seriously lacking. The leap dismember attack was intense and I liked the human wall, but the rest bored me from a battle standpoint. I'd much rather watch a phalanx mow down rank after rank of enemy soliders. Seriously, I almost fell asleep by the end of the movie. It was one of those "you run over there and swing...and you go that way and swing..." types of movies. I need a more believable trouncing which comes best from depicting the superiority of one particular strategy over another. Lets just say I enjoy a good chess match where the edge goes to the cunning. Any idiot could've commanded the persions to victory in 300. But if history is correct, the spartans weren't that easy to best and their true effort was likely far more organized and exciting...and hence worthy of a more acurate portrayal. That's all I'm saying.

That would be cool. But its hard to capture that on the big screen. Not impossible, but hard. Frank Miller focused on the 300, so the film did. One of the WORST battle scenes that attempted such was Stone's "Alexander". My sweet lord what a horrible movie. I didn't see it all I must confess because when I got to the battle of Granicus (or Gaugamela, can't remember) Stone made such a confusin hodge podge of shots and counter shots that I couldn't tell what the *@&@ was going on. I kept squinting, waiting for something to come out of it, but nothing ever did. It irritated me so much I turned it off...something I rarely do. Should probably finish it sometimes. But I agree that would be cool!

Note, that I am a firm believer that any and all numbers attributed to a particular army by any greek historian is likely inflated by a factor of no less than 10. Why? Simply because I don't see the viability of large enough supply chains to feed . . . quote]

I agree on the numbers, I used to toss them aside. But it is probably reasonable to assume that Xerxes had over 100,000 men. The Romans fielded these armies we know, as did the Huns and other peoples. So there is no reason to doubt that Xerxes wouldn't be able to as well. The Persians had suffered a humiliating defeat at Marathon when 40,000 Persians stormed the shore and the Athenians crushed them (armor and tactics winning the day). So It is reasonable that Xerxes wouldn't have wanted to suffer a similar defeat and brought the wealth of his Kingdom to bare.

"Our arrows will blot out the sun?". Cool quote, but to that I say they can't possibly fit enough archers in range of a single area to pull off that neat little trick.

I think that quote is in Herodotus. I'll check. I have a copy of "The Histories" around here somewhere. Of course they didn't mean it literally, but regardless it is one kick ass quote. The Spartans were famous smart asses from the sources. When Alexander's emmisary said: "If we conquer Sparta we will reduce it to a ruin." According to teh sources, the Spartan's replied with one word: "If." Don't know how accurate it is, but cool nonetheless, like 101's commander's response to the Wehrmacht: "Nuts!"

Steve

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[Troll Lord]

miller6 wrote:
If I remember correctly, the persians won that war and CHOSE not to occupy greece.

No. The Persians were soundly defeated. After they broke through at Themoplai they moved into the central plains of Greece. The largest city state there, Thebes, surrendered (they were the only ones at the pass to surrender, banking that that act would give them some leverage agains the Great King for their cities' favor and they were right). The Athenians evacuated all of Attica, moving in mass over to a small island west of the mainland. Xerxes burned Athens and most of Attica to the ground.

He then attemtped to destroy the Athenians at sea so he could round up their people. He was decisively defeated at Salamis at sea. Much of his navy being crippled. This threatened his supply lines. So he withdrew, leaving a large army behind (numbers vary of course, but probably about 60,000 men). The next year (479) the Spatans gathered their league and joined it to Athenian boots and moved to oust the Persians. They met just inside the Pellopanias at Platae. The spartans had the right wing and the Athenians the left and about 20 other cities the center. The persians arrayed against sparta and teh center and the Thebens and their allies against athens. At first the allies withdrew, but this was a ruse laid out by the Spartan King. The Persians attacked, the Spartans on the right (about 8000 strong) turned and crushed the persians utterly, killing the Persian commander and his 1000 special guard. The Athenians fought back the Thebans and when the Thebans saw the peresians fleeing they broke and ran. The Persians fled to the encampment where the Athenians led the assault in breeching the walls and the spartans and others broke into the enclosure and slaughtered everyone.

Few Persians returned from the occupation. The war continued for awhile, led now not by Sparta but by the navy of Athens. Persia never mounted another campaign against Greece.

Steve
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He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Troll Lord]

Julian Grimm wrote:
And Sparta worship? Naw, I'd rather be a viking.

Vikings rule! IN a sad aside, can you imagine how horrifying that first raid on that first church was. Cleric sitting there busy writing on his scrolls, no one has bothered him in 40 years and then all the sudden 20 smelly, bearded dudes with axes show up and start chopping and burning everythign down. "HOLY BEJESUS!!"

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Troll Lord]

Geleg wrote:
mission accomplished! Epistemological chaos on the TLG boards ....!

much Love,

Dispater

Seriously, it's interesting to hear all the different perspectives people have. I'm not sure my own opinions have changed much, but that's the usual way of it on message boards!

Geleg

LOL

Steve

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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Tadhg]

Troll Lord wrote:
I think that quote is in Herodotus. I'll check. I have a copy of "The Histories" around here somewhere.

Good call.

"It is said that on the eve of battle, Dienekes was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, when they fired their volleys, the mass of arrows blocked out the sun. Dienekes, however, quite undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, 'Good. Then we'll have our battle in the shade'"

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[dcs]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Meh, the Templars had naught to do with demon worship. The horned being they venerated was simply one aspect of a male/female aspected diety.

Actually I am quite certain that they venerated nothing of the kind. They were a Christian military order, not a coven of Wiccans.

Quote:
The French govt and the pope just needed an excuse to wrest the economic control of europe away from said Templars.

The Templars were suppressed, but in countries other than France they simply changed their name, from the Knights Templar to the Knights of Christ (their original full name had been the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon).

In recent years the Order of the Temple has been re-formed.
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[Treebore]

dcs wrote:
Actually I am quite certain that they venerated nothing of the kind. They were a Christian military order, not a coven of Wiccans.



The Templars were suppressed, but in countries other than France they simply changed their name, from the Knights Templar to the Knights of Christ (their original full name had been the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon).

In recent years the Order of the Temple has been re-formed.

Nominally they were a Christian order, but there is a number of "historians" and other people using various evidence to try and prove that they were secretly evil.

I'm not saying any of it conclusively proves anything, but it defnitely can make people wonder.

Its just another example of why people can't really trust anyone to be telling them the truth. So the best thing to do is find out for themselves and make up their own mind.

[dcs]

Treebore wrote:
Nominally they were a Christian order, but there is a number of "historians" and other people using various evidence to try and prove that they were secretly evil.

These are old charges and they were spread by someone who had been ousted by the order a few years before its suppression. In fact, the rumors were putatatively the reason for their persecution and suppression (which I understand the Church now acknowledges as unjust).

Some of the Templars did confess to the charges, but it must be remembered that a lot of them were old men and their confessions were gotten under torture . . . and that they recanted them when they were not being tortured.
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[Treebore]

dcs wrote:
These are old charges and they were spread by someone who had been ousted by the order a few years before its suppression. In fact, the rumors were putatatively the reason for their persecution and suppression (which I understand the Church now acknowledges as unjust).

Some of the Templars did confess to the charges, but it must be remembered that a lot of them were old men and their confessions were gotten under torture . . . and that they recanted them when they were not being tortured.

I actually watched a program about 8 to 10 years ago showing "demonic" figures carved into the columns of old Templar temples and they were definitely bringing up the old questions. Plus they were looking for the lost treasures of the order. Bringing up more aspersions towards Templar honor and integrity.

So its still coming up again and again.

[gideon_thorne]

dcs wrote:
Actually I am quite certain that they venerated nothing of the kind. They were a Christian military order, not a coven of Wiccans.

And I'm quite sure they did. They were about as christian as I am, in reality. And I never mentioned the word 'wiccan' at all. Dual aspected dieties go back a long long way. ^_~`
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
I actually watched a program about 8 to 10 years ago showing "demonic" figures carved into the columns of old Templar temples and they were definitely bringing up the old questions. Plus they were looking for the lost treasures of the order. Bringing up more aspersions towards Templar honor and integrity.

So its still coming up again and again.

*Chuckles* Scurillous nonsense. The figured were not 'demonic' at all. They are just touted that way by those with a vested interest in tarring the order. Usually for the very reason of aquiring said hidden riches. ^_^

The Templars were, and are still, a very inclusive order which brought in many ideas from both western and eastern thought and philosophy. Quite simply, said openeness offended a great many of those who wished a more quo status.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*Chuckles* Scurillous nonsense. The figured were not 'demonic' at all. They are just touted that way by those with a vested interest in tarring the order. Usually for the very reason of aquiring said hidden riches. ^_^

The Templars were, and are still, a very inclusive order which brought in many ideas from both western and eastern thought and philosophy. Quite simply, said openeness offended a great many of those who wished a more quo status.

I strongly agree. I just want to avoid getting into a religious debate.

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
I strongly agree. I just want to avoid getting into a religious debate.

*smiles* Me too. But the history of the organization is well worth looking into. Many a gaming story plot and history development can be inspired from em. ^_^

I stumbled across a bit when digging into my own family history.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[dcs]

gideon_thorne wrote:
And I'm quite sure they did. They were about as christian as I am, in reality.

Pure rubbish. Non-Christians don't die at the stake professing Christianity.

Quote:
And I never mentioned the word 'wiccan' at all. Dual aspected dieties go back a long long way. ^_~`

The word was mine and used to give an example of a group who does venerate such a creature.

The Templars were a Crusading religious order, unique among military orders in that they were monks and soldiers, and nothing more. To claim that they venerated horned deities, that they were an 'inclusive' order inculcating Eastern thought, is just calumny.
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[gideon_thorne]

dcs wrote:
Pure rubbish. Non-Christians don't die at the stake professing Christianity.

*chuckles* Considering the way some of em went, they would die professing anything after the torture they went through. Sides, such a dedicated order were quite effective at throwing off the 'scent' as it were of those in persuit of them.

Quote:
The Templars were a Crusading religious order, unique among military orders in that they were monks and soldiers, and nothing more. To claim that they venerated horned deities, that they were an 'inclusive' order inculcating Eastern thought, is calumny of the basest kind.

Its part of a growing body of historical fact I'm afraid. Feel free to ask members of the current orders who do indeed include those of any background.

A very savy group to be sure who were most effective at assuming economic control of europe through various ways and means, including the invention of large scale banking. ^_^

In that time and place there was a constant mix of cultures and philosophies, especially in the area where the order was formed. The Knights Templar borrowed freely from many of them.

The templars were also one of many who included warrior monks among their ranks. The Hospitalars, among others, also had a similar warrior/ monk organization. Not at all unique, just the most well know and notorious. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[RPGmonk]

gideon_thorne wrote:
And I'm quite sure they did. They were about as christian as I am, in reality. And I never mentioned the word 'wiccan' at all. Dual aspected dieties go back a long long way. ^_~`

Gnosticism, early Christian sect, duality for sure.

This has turned into a lively topic, but with the mention of main stream religion, I hope it doesn't turn ugly, like I've seen on other boards before.

Peace.

PS, after hearing some reviews from my friends who saw 300, my wife and I celebrated our anniversary quitely, eating at Applebees with the kids, and a quick visit to Barnes and Nobles. I'll wait for the DVD

[jman5000]

didn't any of you watch National Treasure the movie? all your Templar answers can be found there... Since we're talking about realism in movies
there the masons don't'cha know?

cheers,

J.

[Julian Grimm]

Troll Lord wrote:
Vikings rule! IN a sad aside, can you imagine how horrifying that first raid on that first church was. Cleric sitting there busy writing on his scrolls, no one has bothered him in 40 years and then all the sudden 20 smelly, bearded dudes with axes show up and start chopping and burning everythign down. "HOLY BEJESUS!!"

Steve

Sounds like 1am Saturday morning at the Lebanon MO Waffle House.!

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My blog

[dcs]

gideon_thorne wrote:
they would die professing anything after the torture they went through.

See, that's just the thing. They 'confessed' to various crimes under torture, then recanted their confessions and continued to recant at the stake.

Quote:
Its part of a growing body of historical fact I'm afraid. Feel free to ask members of the current orders who do indeed include those of any background.

The current orders have no connection to the historical Templars (with the exception of the reconstituted Templars in Italy; these are totally Catholic); they have a closer connection to Freemasonry and gnosticism (just like most of the 'orders' who claim a connection to the Hospitallers [i.e., the Order of St. John of Jerusalem]).

Quote:
The Hospitalars, among others, also had a similar warrior/ monk organization. Not at all unique, just the most well know and notorious. ^_^

The Hospitallers were different in that they distinguished between knights of the order and those who were religious and infirmarians (i.e., those who ran hospitals). The Knights Templar made no such distinction.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta (i.e., the Hospitallers) still exists.

P.S. I apologize if any of my posts in this thread have been intemperate. I'll bow out of it now, I've said my tuppence.
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[gideon_thorne]

jman5000 wrote:
didn't any of you watch National Treasure the movie? all your Templar answers can be found there... Since we're talking about realism in movies
there the masons don't'cha know?

cheers,

J.

*chuckles* Just a bit of trivia about the masons. That most famous of piratical symbols, the skull and crossbones, is in actual fact a masonic symbol. The local masonic lodge master pointed that one out to me. An amusing fyi for thoes interested.
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Peter Bradley