Troll Lord Games

Ciao Antonio,

All things considered, I should suppose that Gangalf's spells were of up to 6th level in D&D terms, save for the ability to summon giant eagles (and possibly similar creatures) and withstand a fall of hundreds of feet into a fiery place.

So what i am actually saying is that while not a potent mage in terms of the D&D game, he doesn't actually fit into that RPG, as the milieu JRRT created is nothing akin to the typical D&D worlds.

Ah, a couple of other things: The assumption that the D&D spectre was based on the Nazgul alone is not accurate. The Headless Horsemen and the ridersin the Wild Hunt were also considered when creating that monster. As for magic-user level names, necromancer just happened to fall into the ninth category as I named each. What I was aiming at in doing that was to use up all the synonyms for a practitioner of magic so that competing FRPG designers' ines would be compared to the D&D game's mages. the same is true for all the named levels in other classes.

Otherwise, those appelations are rather superflous, save in use by a PC to identify himself.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Ciao Antonio,

All things considered, I should suppose that Gangalf's spells were of up to 6th level in D&D terms, save for the ability to summon giant eagles (and possibly similar creatures) and withstand a fall of hundreds of feet into a fiery place.

So what i am actually saying is that while not a potent mage in terms of the D&D game, he doesn't actually fit into that RPG, as the milieu JRRT created is nothing akin to the typical D&D worlds.

Ah, a couple of other things: The assumption that the D&D spectre was based on the Nazgul alone is not accurate. The Headless Horsemen and the ridersin the Wild Hunt were also considered when creating that monster. As for magic-user level names, necromancer just happened to fall into the ninth category as I named each. What I was aiming at in doing that was to use up all the synonyms for a practitioner of magic so that competing FRPG designers' ines would be compared to the D&D game's mages. the same is true for all the named levels in other classes.

Otherwise, those appelations are rather superflous, save in use by a PC to identify himself.

Cheers,

Gary

Ciao Gary,

thanks for the insights!

Yes, I know that D&D is not a good system to "model" JRRT's milieu, but I like to experiment and mold.

Regarding the spectre, I took the definition from an OD&D booklet, in which it is explicitly mentioned the Nazgul as a model. But it is nice to know that there are other sources behind it.

Regarding names...well, I know they are just a placeholder, but I like to think that Gandalf was a bit more powerful than Sauron
And within the ordering of names imposed by the levels, it just fits that Sauron is one level behind Gandalf.

Cheers,

Antonio

P.S.

I did not forget about the cards
I asked my sister in Italy to send me in the UK a deck of neapolitan cards. As soon as I receive them, I will ship them to you!

rabindranath72 wrote:
Regarding names...well, I know they are just a placeholder, but I like to think that Gandalf was a bit more powerful than Sauron
!

Oh contrare'! Gandalf explicitly states that he's scared of Sauron cause Melkor's servant was much more powerful. ^_~`

LOTR book geek here. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

rabindranath72 wrote:
Ciao Gary,

thanks for the insights!

Yes, I know that D&D is not a good system to "model" JRRT's milieu, but I like to experiment and mold.

That is true, and it is fun to see how close one can model characters from fantasy literature using the D&D game mold. It is much easire with the Lejendary Adventure FRPG, but even using it Gandalf is hard to recreate because Middle Earth is not a swords & sorcery sort of milieu.

Quote:
Regarding the spectre, I took the definition from an OD&D booklet, in which it is explicitly mentioned the Nazgul as a model. But it is nice to know that there are other sources behind it.

I put that into the booklet to help in attracting fans of the "Rings Trilogy," at that time the only broadly popular fantasy work, and I wanted to capture those readers as part of the D&D game audience.

Quote:
Regarding names...well, I know they are just a placeholder, but I like to think that Gandalf was a bit more powerful than Sauron
And within the ordering of names imposed by the levels, it just fits that Sauron is one level behind Gandalf.

Cheers,

Antonio

It does work out that way, I concur.

Quote:
P.S.

I did not forget about the cards
I asked my sister in Italy to send me in the UK a deck of neapolitan cards. As soon as I receive them, I will ship them to you!

Not a problem at all, and I very much appreciate the kindness.

Cheerio,

Gary

gideon_thorne wrote:
Oh contrare'! Gandalf explicitly states that he's scared of Sauron cause Melkor's servant was much more powerful. ^_~`

LOTR book geek here. ^_^

But the tense "was" could indicate that Gandalf wad grown in his magical capacity over the time in question. After all, he did survive the confrontation with the balrog, came back more potent than when he took the dive into the cravass.

BTW, I brought up JRRT because I know any mention of his work being less than perfect is bound to elicit a goodly number of posts defending it, and I enjoy the activity of reading and responding in suppport of my assertions...
Cheers,

Gary

gideon_thorne wrote:
Oh contrare'! Gandalf explicitly states that he's scared of Sauron cause Melkor's servant was much more powerful. ^_~`

LOTR book geek here. ^_^

I don't think Gandalf the White had anything to fear from Sauron, except perhaps its corrupting influence. When he died he was 7th level, but on returning he was 9th level

rabindranath72 wrote:
I don't think Gandalf the White had anything to fear from Sauron, except perhaps its corrupting influence. When he died he was 7th level, but on returning he was 9th level

"One ring to rule them all.."

Nuff said. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Col_Pladoh wrote:
BTW, I brought up JRRT because I know any mention of his work being less than perfect is bound to elicit a goodly number of posts defending it, and I enjoy the activity of reading and responding in suppport of my assertions...
Cheers,

Gary

*smiles* Never met an author thats 'perfect'. There are those I like more than others. But perfect? Naw.

Two others I like, that do great sword and sorcery though. Simon R Green (the Hawk and Fisher series) and pretty much anything by David Gemmell. Both english authors so one has the advantage that one is not baby talked through the literature. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
"One ring to rule them all.."

Nuff said. ^_~`

Any magic-used stupid enough to vest his entire power in a single ring deserves to do up on smoke.

Gary

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Never met an author thats 'perfect'. There are those I like more than others. But perfect? Naw.

Two others I like, that do great sword and sorcery though. Simon R Green (the Hawk and Fisher series) and pretty much anything by David Gemmell. Both english authors so one has the advantage that one is not baby talked through the literature. ^_^

Frankly. I have read Gemmell and find his work less than thrilling or particularly erudite. He doesn't hold a candle to Jack Vance in my mind...or to REH for that matter.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Frankly. I have read Gemmell and find his work less than thrilling or particularly erudite. He doesn't hold a candle to Jack Vance in my mind...or to REH for that matter.

Cheers,

Gary

Now.. if you really want to see people hop, watch the reaction to this statement. ^_~`

I've never been able to get into Vance, I really did try though. Or REH for that matter. Although I did enjoy the Kull and Bran Mac Morn stories the most.

I'm heretical in so many ways.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I have never been able to read Jack Vance either. I have tried several times, but he doesn't hold a candle to authors like HPL, CAS, Cabell or Dunsany. REH is fun at times, but I prefer his Mythos pieces to his fantasy. I never liked the Vancian magic system either, and always adopt systems from other games, like the old Bard Games works or hybridizations from systems like Palladium Fantasy (i.e. a dynamic that controls how many spells per day a mage has access to).

I finally have a chance to throw my 2 cents in (if it's even worth that much) Work was a killer this week until Thursday morning then came to a quick halt (read KFR string for the reason)

It is great to hear the Col's thoughts on this as I have always wondered why G always sounded like an average hedge mage... I mean he lights pine cones on fire & flings them at wargs.... Oh the sparks take hold but ..... He admitantly was the strongest mage in the world but that is way low magic! It defiantly is not a classic D&D world! Reading this has helped things click for me between the game & rules there of, & the books I've held the games up to.

I also agree with the Col about if you want to recreate the book then read it again don't try to run it in a game. I'll be the first to use the flavor of a book for ideas and the setting but I've learned the hard way not to try & play a story. The pesky players will ALWAYS go a different direction than the heroes do in the second chapter, or you will have someone that goes "that isn't what happened on page ....! Both are great ways to make a fun game into a LONG night.

That said I'm still a huge fan of the Hobbit. It is probably due to the fact that it was the first book that I read that wasn't words on the page but in the middle of the second paragraph my mind saw the hobbit hole and never again a typed word in the book. -If there is anything Gandalf did that makes him the greatest mage in any world it is that!- That has lead to me being an avid reader.

Tolkin's books are some of the few that I can go back & read again ( I've made it a habit to take cheap copies with me each time I get to go play in dirty countries) and still enjoy almost as much as the first read. It might be nostalgia but it is true. I try that with some of the other books & I'm very disappointed..... FR... oh surprise Dritz can out fight what ever the bad guy is & Elminster will have a better spell somehow... (I'm not sure what this says about me or Tolkin for that matter but I still enjoy the MYTH INC books also.....)

I also like the idea of corruption in Tolkin's books. "does power corrupt or do the corruptible seek power" plus the differing ideas of good that are brought forth. Plus back to Gandalf, could he be more powerful than the lowly 9th level mage but know that if he flings those kind of spells around he will become too willing to use power becoming more corrupt?

Quote:
Any magic-used stupid enough to vest his entire power in a single ring deserves to do up on smoke.

Gary

Col again I agree with you. I never under stood that part of the whole story. I like the idea of a ring of power that any gamer would go to the umpteenth level of a dungeon for, but what does that do to your soul (again back to the corruption) but making said babble of power the key to you staying on the world. Not a good plan!

As to the other authors you all mention some I recognize & some not, but I'll dig into them! I have to have good things for Kaitlin to read ( again the KFR string) in 10ish years. It defiantly won't be the normal Okie schoolin type books!

Sorry about the ramblings but after almost 2 days of seeing only nurses, my wife, her mom, my 3 dogs & poeple selling cold food & bad coffee for way to much I need to vent a bit & join a debate.
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Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

I dunno about you guys but I've had many great sessions set in Middle Earth. It worked for me and my players. Would I want to do that all the time? Nope. But neither would I want to run a classic D&D-esque dungeon crawl all the time either.

About Sauron putting so much of himself into the ring... it's not like it was a bad judgement call. It was his only option to carry out his plan for corrupting the free peoples of Middle Earth - so said Mr. Tolkien.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Now.. if you really want to see people hop, watch the reaction to this statement. ^_~`

I've never been able to get into Vance, I really did try though. Or REH for that matter. Although I did enjoy the Kull and Bran Mac Morn stories the most.

I'm heretical in so many ways.

I pity you...

Gary

pactmaster wrote:
I have never been able to read Jack Vance either. I have tried several times, but he doesn't hold a candle to authors like HPL, CAS, Cabell or Dunsany. REH is fun at times, but I prefer his Mythos pieces to his fantasy. I never liked the Vancian magic system either, and always adopt systems from other games, like the old Bard Games works or hybridizations from systems like Palladium Fantasy (i.e. a dynamic that controls how many spells per day a mage has access to).

While there is no accounting for taste, Vance is critically held to be an absolute master of fantasy and SF.

Chererio,

Gary

Howdy Lurker,

Just a short response to your postL

You are on target regarding not using a work of fiction for an RPG except as inspiration for a similar sort of setting or adventure scenario.

Of all JRRT's fantasy work The Hobbit is my favorite. After reading it myself, I read it many times to my children, along with Bellair's Face in the Frost.

Glad you joined this thread, and do post whenever so motivated
Cheers,

Gary

Eisenmann wrote:
I dunno about you guys but I've had many great sessions set in Middle Earth. It worked for me and my players. Would I want to do that all the time? Nope. But neither would I want to run a classic D&D-esque dungeon crawl all the time either.

About Sauron putting so much of himself into the ring... it's not like it was a bad judgement call. It was his only option to carry out his plan for corrupting the free peoples of Middle Earth - so said Mr. Tolkien.

Sure, you can use the setting for your own adventure scenarios, using rules that fit it so as to not include clerics of any sort, and making elves more powerful than humans. That said, commercial attempts to base an RPG on the work have not been successful, have they?

The idea of rings of power might work for the story JRRT wished to tell, but outside that it was clearly a very bad idea to place all of one's power into a single item. Look at what happened to Sauron because of that piece of poor judgement
That and dumping Tom Bombadil after writing him in and making it abundantly clear that he could have taken the one ring and destroyed it in an afternoon sort of spoild the whole reilogy for me.

Cheers,

Gary

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Sure, you can use the setting for your own adventure scenarios, using rules that fit it so as to not include clerics of any sort, and making elves more powerful than humans. That said, commercial attempts to base an RPG on the work have not been successful, have they?

Does that really matter? Is commercial success truly the metric of worthiness for gaming?

I don't understand the placement of the argument about commercial success in the context of the thread to be honest. The issues surrounding commercial viability of settings/systems of say Middle Earth is IMO beyond the scope of this thread that probably fall into domains beyond just, "The idea just plain sucks."

Quote:
The idea of rings of power might work for the story JRRT wished to tell, but outside that it was clearly a very bad idea to place all of one's power into a single item. Look at what happened to Sauron because of that piece of poor judgement

Huh? Yea, bad judgement calls don't happen in gaming settings.

Beyond that, I don't understand this point either in the body of the argument that those of us who do play in such settings are having badwrongfun.

Quote:
That and dumping Tom Bombadil after writing him in and making it abundantly clear that he could have taken the one ring and destroyed it in an afternoon sort of spoild the whole reilogy for me.

Dumping Tom Bombadil...Huh?

Far out part is that here's part of my original query

Quote:
I'm doing research for a setting that I'm writing for my upcoming C&C campaign and am looking for any premade gems that I can get my hands on.

I explicitly state that I'm looking for gems to use in my own setting and in response "we" get told that playing in ME isn't really all that great.

Holy cow.

Worst part is that I was drawn into arguing to the contrary.

gideon_thorne wrote:
"One ring to rule them all.."

Nuff said. ^_~`

Had he used The One Ring! But without it...

Col_Pladoh wrote:
While there is no accounting for taste, Vance is critically held to be an absolute master of fantasy and SF.

Chererio,

Gary

Certainly you must have also read some of the other authors I mentioned and gleaned a bit of inspiration from them? I would toss Leiber onto the pile of favorites as well and say that I feel that if a world, next to the Black Company, works well with a role-playing system, it would be Nehwon. I haven't seen much of the new setting from Mongoose, but the old material that was made for AD&D is still a classic and well researched.

I would dare to say that an rpg can emulate a writer's world, but it takes a great group of players working with the person running the game (an occurence that is sometimes quite rare as many of us know). I wouldn't really want to play in Middle-Earth myself, but I do try to bring aspects of work that inspire me to evoke the atmosphere of Zothique or a journey down the Yann, or perhaps a nocturnal excursion into the delights and dangers of Lankhmar.

Quote:
Far out part is that here's part of my original query

I'm doing research for a setting that I'm writing for my upcoming C&C campaign and am looking for any premade gems that I can get my hands on.

I explicitly state that I'm looking for gems to use in my own setting and in response "we" get told that playing in ME isn't really all that great.

Holy cow.

Worst part is that I was drawn into arguing to the contrary.

Eisen Sorry I missed the start of the thread & got tangled in the current rabbit chase.

I've palyed ME alot & the thoughts for my homebrew world (little more than notes in varried note books & little green brains) is VERY ME/Tolkin so can follow on the path you were trying for.

As I've said in other posts I'm PCSing so all my books are packed in storage ( the realitor said something about WAY TO CLUTTERED to sell the house) so can't look up which old MERP books were helpful/useful. Of the top of my head I'd say Anror & Empire of the Witchking. There is a thread in the rules/chasos section that has some real good info too.

I also look to other games for more ideas on the cultures hinted at & used as the bilding blocks of olkin's world. Pendragon's viking & saxon books are good ( I just got the PDF of Saxons so aren't a 100% on it, but looks good thus far) Plus ALOT of Osprey press books for general info (The mounted woriors of Charlimain -sp- though having advanced saddles didn't tuck their lances under their arms or charge in a single line but in waves you can imply that early Normans did likewise & IMHO that is the basis of the Riders of Rohan) Little tidbits like that..

Quote:
Howdy Lurker,

Just a short response to your postL

You are on target regarding not using a work of fiction for an RPG except as inspiration for a similar sort of setting or adventure scenario.

Of all JRRT's fantasy work The Hobbit is my favorite. After reading it myself, I read it many times to my children, along with Bellair's Face in the Frost.

Glad you joined this thread, and do post whenever so motivated

Cheers,

Gary

Gary Thanks.

Too true, who would want to play the story line that everyone already knows, but to use the canvas of a master as a back drop...

I look forward to reading it & many other books to my little girl, but now at day 3 it might be a little early!

Quote:
Certainly you must have also read some of the other authors I mentioned and gleaned a bit of inspiration from them? I would toss Leiber onto the pile of favorites as well and say that I feel that if a world, next to the Black Company, works well with a role-playing system, it would be Nehwon. I haven't seen much of the new setting from Mongoose, but the old material that was made for AD&D is still a classic and well researched.

I would dare to say that an rpg can emulate a writer's world, but it takes a great group of players working with the person running the game (an occurence that is sometimes quite rare as many of us know). I wouldn't really want to play in Middle-Earth myself, but I do try to bring aspects of work that inspire me to evoke the atmosphere of Zothique or a journey down the Yann, or perhaps a nocturnal excursion into the delights and dangers of Lankhmar.

Pact I agree on both counts! I'd also throw in "Thieves world" to the mix
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

Lurker wrote:
I've palyed ME alot & the thoughts for my homebrew world (little more than notes in varried note books & little green brains) is VERY ME/Tolkin so can follow on the path you were trying for.

As I've said in other posts I'm PCSing so all my books are packed in storage ( the realitor said something about WAY TO CLUTTERED to sell the house) so can't look up which old MERP books were helpful/useful. Of the top of my head I'd say Anror & Empire of the Witchking. There is a thread in the rules/chasos section that has some real good info too.

I also look to other games for more ideas on the cultures hinted at & used as the bilding blocks of olkin's world. Pendragon's viking & saxon books are good ( I just got the PDF of Saxons so aren't a 100% on it, but looks good thus far) Plus ALOT of Osprey press books for general info (The mounted woriors of Charlimain -sp- though having advanced saddles didn't tuck their lances under their arms or charge in a single line but in waves you can imply that early Normans did likewise & IMHO that is the basis of the Riders of Rohan) Little tidbits like that..

I'm gonna have to track down Arnor & Empire of the Witchking. Those two books keep coming up again and again so they must be good.

I picked up Pendragon's Saxon and Beowulf PDFs recently and they're not too shabby. They have a lot of good detailed information to make a game feel more realistic.

I'm a history junkie, so a few years ago while in the UK, I actually went to the Abbey and battlefield at Hastings just to see it. I took a ton of photos and wanted to absorb it all since I have a connection to the location - an actual ancestor who rode in the cavalry charge that broke the anglo-saxon shieldwall.

Col_Pladoh wrote:
That and dumping Tom Bombadil after writing him in and making it abundantly clear that he could have taken the one ring and destroyed it in an afternoon sort of spoild the whole reilogy for me.

I think you may have misread the encounter with Bombadil.
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