Why does everyone seem to hate SR 4th ed

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:47 am

Black Hardcover with an Elmore picture on the cover. Wont say 2nd edition.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:52 am

Honestly though, you are better off getting 2nd Edition. Has the same cover but says 2nd Edition on it.

2nd Edition is very close to the 1st in gameplay. The reason the 1st edition had such a short run was it had a number of mechanical issues that 2nd edition corrected. A fair number of sourceboooks of the era could be used by either edition, thats how close they were.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:08 am

LOL call it silly nostalgia but to me cyberpunk will always be

Cyberpunk 2020.

I don't even know how I ended up with 2 copies of it
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:10 am

angelius wrote:
LOL call it silly nostalgia but to me cyberpunk will always be

Cyberpunk 2020.

I don't even know how I ended up with 2 copies of it

AMEN! (two copies here, too!!)

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:29 am

angelius wrote:
LOL call it silly nostalgia but to me cyberpunk will always be

Cyberpunk 2020.

I don't even know how I ended up with 2 copies of it

I had a copy of Cyberpunk 2020 back in the day. It was a pretty good system but never quite did it for me. Me and my group back then would play for a little while then gravitate back to SR.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:38 am

CP2020 had one of the best sourcebooks for "hard" SF games ever, Deep Space. It is quite realistic, yet is not impractical to use in games. It also has a system for building spaceships, and a system to handle space combat in an abstract way; both are really fantastic. I think Talsorian still sells the book. Strongly recommended!

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:47 pm

Although no game to date has quite got the cyberpunk setting-to-mechanic feel exactly right, CP2020 is the best out there. Now THAT'S a fun game.

CP2020 and all of it's sourcebooks were the best published to mimick the cyberpunk settings of the 80s and 90s. You could easily use the material to play in a Bladerunner setting, Neromancer setting, or even an anime sytle Bubblegun Crisis setting. CP2020 did that very well.

............................................Omote

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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:20 pm

Omote wrote:
even an anime sytle Bubblegun Crisis setting. CP2020 did that very well.

............................................Omote

FPQ

Yes, I used it for the starting stages of my One Year War (Gundam) campaign, by using only the core book and the Deep Space supplement.

Later I switched to Jovian Chronicles as the engine for the campaign, but nonetheless, Cyberpunk was easily adaptable.

torren · Post by **torren** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:28 pm

Howdy all,

The difference in first ed is the spells mainly, in first ed. there is a spell turn to goo (or something along those lines) or something where you turn the target in to goo for example. They got rid of that spell in 2nd ed...to powerful and no defense.

My biggest problem with SR 4th ed, the change in the matrix. What were they thinking in changing the Matrix to the internet??? WTF!!! and there are changes in the PC classes as well. I liked all previous eds. b/c they added to and streamlined some rules but was basically same game nothing new just some minor tweaks. There was no reason to make SR 4th into D&D 3.5!!!! Why would anyone do that?! Yes, there were alot of sourcebooks and was a bit long in the tooth for shelf life, but I don't feel that is reason to screw the story line or to completely change the foundation of a game.

But on a bright note there are enough sourcebooks out and now I can get them cheaper to not ever have to worry about ever being shorted story line-wise and just ignore all 4th ed timeline totally.

Btw, I did try D&D 3.5 and gave it a fair shot before I "offically" became an Old Geezer and one of those guys (Anti-Whiz kids and TSR). LOL, it's ok isn't it, I am a C&C cleric now. The older games are like older cars, just have more style and a better feel to them.

I will get of the soap box now and pass it to the next person.

Later all,

t
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:33 pm

torren wrote:
My biggest problem with SR 4th ed, the change in the matrix.

That was one of the things I applauded them doing for SR4. Now the decker is more likely to not be left out of the action. Gone are the days of the players leaving the table and catching some TV, play a console game, or whatever while the GM sits with the decker to handle him jacking in.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:03 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Gone are the days of the players leaving the table and catching some TV, play a console game, or whatever while the GM sits with the decker to handle him jacking in.

So true. It was cool when one session during SR3 we had 3 Deckers in the Matrix at thge same time making a run on a corp's ultra-secure employee database. 3 Deckers and about 3 hours of game time in the Matrix. Quite fun. And this was a one-off session where 2 players didn;t even play because of the hack-session.

.......................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:24 pm

I never had a problem with the decker having to "solo" since it gave the other PCs time to prepare for his screw0up, or recon, or take out guards, or other things... all of which were often needed. That was one of the things I liked the most, actually: every PC was expected to be doing something all the time, to help the group as a whole... it was very much about teamwork, despite being in different places.

torren · Post by **torren** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:35 pm

I agree Serl, We never had a problem and usually everyone wanted to run a decker now and then so we always rotated and always had a heck of a game....
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:39 pm

torren wrote:
I agree Serl, We never had a problem and usually everyone wanted to run a decker now and then so we always rotated and always had a heck of a game....

My Decker is my favorite character in Shadowrun. ^_~`
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:42 pm

I think the decker issue for previous editions struck home with me when I was a player in a SR2 game at my local game store in California. My time in the matrix was usually spent with the other players in the group sitting there looking rather bored.

I understand how SR4 radically changed the feel of the game for people, believe me as I've been a big fan of the game through all of its incarnations and have played and ran it heavily. SR4 requires an adjustment, and it took me several games in SR4 to realize that, I was mildly antiSR4 after I first picked it up.

But, once you do adjust and get over initial hang-ups, it is a great system that is just as edgy and intense as it predecessors. I will continue to complain about SR4's character creation however. That is the new editions greatest weakness. A SR character has always taken a long time to make, largely do to the shopping process of getting your gear and cyberware. SR4 makes the process take even longer and was done very poorly.

That being said, if someone invited me to play Shadowrun with them, I wouldn't care which edition it was chummers. With a Predator in one hand and a cup of Soykaf in the other...I'd be there.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:13 pm

That being said, is there any other CP games on the market that havn't been examined? Are there little cyberpunk genre RPG gems out there that we don't know about?

Here are the ones that I am aware of:

Shadowrun 1-4

Cyberpunk

Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0

Cyberpunk v3

Cybergeneration

GURPS - Cyberpunk

GURPS - Cthulhupunk

Ninjas & Superspies

Bubblegun Crisis

Ex Machina

OGL Cybernet

d20 Future/Cyberscape

Ghost in the Shell d20 [Fan Made]

These are about the only ones I'm aware of. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, and there are some that have cyberpunk elements to them, but are not "cyberpunk" (Rifts, for example).

Any others that need to be mentioned?

............................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:18 pm

There are tons of cyber-genre, like The Matrix RPG, and elements of others that have such things in them (The Cyberpapacy of TORG, for example.) Depending on how tight your definition, you can include the conspiracy games, too, like Paranoia (and its derivatives) and Dark Conspiracy... and even some aspects of apocalypse games, too.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:29 pm

TORG could defintely be on that list, and probably should be. There are tons of games that have elements of CP to them, but I was kind of just sticking with the "hard" cyberpunk games.

There are lots of games that could be mentioned.

............................................Omote

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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:54 pm

Anyone tried the Serenity RPG? It's quite interesting. It's truly sad that its discontinued (last i remember)...

I really liked the setting and would have loved to see more sourcebooks.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:57 pm

angelius wrote:
Anyone tried the Serenity RPG?

Already?!?! Hasn't the game only been out for about 1 year? I know a few people who play it, and I'm sure they will not be happy to hear this news.

.............................................Omote

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:03 pm

If I'm not mistaken, I think its due to a liscencing thing.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:07 pm

angelius wrote:
Anyone tried the Serenity RPG? It's quite interesting. It's truly sad that its discontinued (last i remember)...

I heard that on either the midnight's Lair or Dragons Landing podcasts and then whoever said it recanted the next week after being informed otherwise. I think that it's still ongoing. The website was updated early last month and doesn't seem to have any telltale signs of a "well-this-isn't-working" situation.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:58 am

Margaret Weis Productions wants to make more Serenity RPG materials. Whether Universal wants to or not, I don't know. Last I heard, it's on hold, but there's nothing saying that it's been outright cancelled.

On the topic of Shadowrun...

I played a lot of Shadowrun 1e in college. Our GM got those books cheap since 2e had just come out, so since that's all she had, that's all we used. I bought the 2e book and about 3 other books. I love the concept of the near-future, cyberpunk/fantasy mix. I'm not entirely certain I like the execution. Of course, part of that might be since our GM wasn't the most exciting.

I never got into 3e. Thought about buying it at one point, but when the time came, 4e came out. Looked at 4e, but I wondered if I'd ever use it. Answer was a "no." I think Shadowrun might have been a college game for me. Then I heard some basics such as deckers were changed to hackers to be more "realistic." I dont' care if our technology advanced faster than SR expected. Call it an alternate reality and be done with it. Steampunk isn't wholly realistic either, yet people love it.

As for art, that was a huge selling point for me. Loved the 1e/2e art, especially the Elmore cover. Didn't like the 3e/4e art so much. It was not, as far as I'm concerned, the same game I knew and loved in college.

Since then, I've seen a few good tries at the genre, but nobody has quite got it. d20 Modern/Urban Arcana was fairly close, and I liked several ideas in there. OGL Cybernet was pretty good, but it lacked the magic.

Of course, a C&C version of Shadowrun would be great!
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angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:00 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
Of course, a C&C version of Shadowrun would be great!

I'm on it!
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:14 am

angelius wrote:
I'm on it!

I never really got a chance to play Shadowrun, but I always thought that the setting was just awesome! If you can make a C&C version then you have my blessings. A lot of the ideas that people have come up with by bringing different settings into the SIEGE mechanic are the reason that at first I really applauded WoTC for the whole d20 "thang." I thought, "Cool. Now I can learn one set of rules and just pick up new settings and 'games' without convincing my friends to learn a new system." Maybe now the OGL thing could really work. Well it obviously worked before, but...you know what I mean.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:47 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
Of course, a C&C version of Shadowrun would be great!

It'd be cool if you dropped the HP system. I really do hate HP based games with modern weapons.

"No, really, I'll be ok, he only shot me 7 times."

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:00 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
It'd be cool if you dropped the HP system. I really do hate HP based games with modern weapons.

"No, really, I'll be ok, he only shot me 7 times."

LOL! Yeah, you could go with the VP/WP system. Or just describe it as the guy dodging bullets until about the last 10 HP.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:02 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
Yeah, you could go with the VP/WP system. Or just describe it as the guy dodging bullets until about the last 10 HP.

I agree. HP are a good measure between mechanic and playability, however not realistic.

The easiest way to increase lethallity in HP like C&C is to limit HP, for example HP = CON and that's it, or to include a "bleeding out" rules. Of most simple of all I guess is to just increase the damage die/dice from modern weapons

........................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:33 pm

The best way to track such things is with wounds, with each hit having the possibility of being a scratch, or a mortal wound. This, in turn, causes a tracking system which people say is "heavy." Of course, one can use both a wound and HP system....

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:41 pm

Wound system in C&C...

Every hit reduces HP by one per # of dice rolled for damage (3d6 damage = 3 HP lost automatically)

Make a CON check or suffer the damage rolled on the 3d6 instead of the 3 points.

Just an off the top of head thought.

.....................................Omote

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