What the...

[pineappleleader]

Dragonhelm wrote:
Our job, then, would be to raise awareness, and IMO, do so without slamming the other guy. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.

Too true.

C&C could really use more exposure.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I read a post on a mailing list or on "company" boards, and that poster is really enthusiastic about a rules set or adventure I usually take a look at the Core Books for that system.

If there is a free "Lite" download, I get it. If RPGNOW has a free or cheap PDF of the system I buy it.

My FLAGS used to carry many games, but now their stock is limited to what sells, everything else is special order. That limits exposure of less popular game systems.

My point is that the more you post/talk about your favorate game system the more exposure it will get and more people will check it out. And some of them will buy it.
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[rabindranath72]

I do not think the question here is of "wrong fun" (which applied to a game seems quite a stupid concept). Rather, the fact that 3.x promotes a gaming style which is radically different from the "old school" one, which incidentally, was the style that the _creator_ of the game intended. In this respect, D&D 3.x only has the name of D&D (and in fact I prefer to call it d20 fantasy), simply because by definition D&D is what Gygax defined in his books. Nothing more, nothing less. I laugh hard when people attack Gygax and his view on D&D, since they do not seem to grasp this fundamental idea: D&D is how Gygax defined it. All the rest, is simply not D&D. It may be (more or less, like 3.x) an RPG, but definitely not D&D. Quite amusing is the fact that C&C is MORE D&D than 3.x, since Gary has repeated in more than one occasion that C&C is very close in spirit to his ideas. So, when someone asks you guys "what is the latest edition of D&D", simply show them C&C. The name has changed, but the ideas are all there. And this is what matters.

Cheers,

Antonio

[DangerDwarf]

rabindranath72 wrote:
In this respect, D&D 3.x only has the name of D&D (and in fact I prefer to call it d20 fantasy)

I completely agree and refer to it as d20 myself.

I dont have too much against d20 as a system. Its not my style but its a pretty solid system. But D&D it is NOT and I think thats what gets my hackles up.

[Dragonhelm]

Its funny, because I can actually see both sides to this debate. Antonio makes an excellent point above about creator intent. At the same time, one can also cite that WotC are the owners of D&D and it is within their right to evolve the game. Some of those changes are natural evolution, some forced. Some things go back to original intent, some are a new vision.

DangerDwarf wrote:
I dont have too much against d20 as a system. Its not my style but its a pretty solid system. But D&D it is NOT and I think thats what gets my hackles up.

How does one define what D&D is? Is it Gygaxs original vision? The vision that WotC puts out? Is it an older edition, such as AD&D 1e/2e? Is it a new vision, such as C&C or True20? Again, I think we tread on subjective ground. Ask a hundred different people, youll get a hundred different answers.
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[Omote]

I never refer to THAT game as D&D, because as mentioned here numerous times it's not. I simply call it "version three point five."

I'd like to say that one could have fun playing v3.5, but that game is not roleplaying like we remember it. v3.5 is a cross between many game elements, including strategy miniatures. Dungeons and Dragons had an emphisis on roleplaying, where as the v3.5 game doesn't even really get into the act of playing a character, but the mechanical aspect of manipulating rules combinations for maximum mathemetical effect.

Simply saying, today's generation that is getting into RPGs without the guiding hand of people who have played the "original RPGs" is growing into the thought of v3.5 as a roleplaying game, when clearly the emphasis of that game is not so much on RPing, but on mechanics.

One could have fun playing "Horseshoes & Handgrenades," but if you never learned the original "Horeshoes" you never knew what the game was before it introduced potentially harmful concepts.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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[rabindranath72]

Dragonhelm wrote:
Its funny, because I can actually see both sides to this debate. Antonio makes an excellent point above about creator intent. At the same time, one can also cite that WotC are the owners of D&D and it is within their right to evolve the game. Some of those changes are natural evolution, some forced. Some things go back to original intent, some are a new vision.


How does one define what D&D is? Is it Gygaxs original vision? The vision that WotC puts out? Is it an older edition, such as AD&D 1e/2e? Is it a new vision, such as C&C or True20? Again, I think we tread on subjective ground. Ask a hundred different people, youll get a hundred different answers.

We will get a hundred different answers, but only one counts, and that is the answer of the person who first envisioned it all: Gary Gygax. If one wants to know what Gary thinks (better yet, how Gary DEFINES D&D) one must only read his books. Since no one is in his head, everyone is entitled to an opinion; but mine, as well as yours, is as valid as the ones of anyone at WotC.

WotC can buy a name, but they have abundantly shown that they cannot (or do not want to) understand the IDEAS behind the name. Personally, I do not care an epsilon about a name. It is the spirit of the game that counts, and that can be found in practically all iterations of (A)D&D (a bit less in 2e, with all the proliferation of splatbooks and some less-than-happy choices; but even in that case, Gary said it was a passable VERSION of HIS game). C&C is the natural "heir" to D&D, not because we like it this way, or we think so; it is so because Gygax said so, and this is enough. I am not at all endorsing an "ipse dixit" here, but the truth is that what currently passes as D&D, is NOT D&D, simply because the author of D&D said so. And to me, it is enough.

Cheers,

Antonio

[Zudrak]

rabindranath72 wrote:
We will get a hundred different answers, but only one counts, and that is the answer of the person who first envisioned it all: Gary Gygax. If one wants to know what Gary thinks (better yet, how Gary DEFINES D&D) one must only read his books. Since no one is in his head, everyone is entitled to an opinion; but mine, as well as yours, is as valid as the ones of anyone at WotC.

WotC can buy a name, but they have abundantly shown that they cannot (or do not want to) understand the IDEAS behind the name. Personally, I do not care an epsilon about a name. It is the spirit of the game that counts, and that can be found in practically all iterations of (A)D&D (a bit less in 2e, with all the proliferation of splatbooks and some less-than-happy choices; but even in that case, Gary said it was a passable VERSION of HIS game). C&C is the natural "heir" to D&D, not because we like it this way, or we think so; it is so because Gygax said so, and this is enough. I am not at all endorsing an "ipse dixit" here, but the truth is that what currently passes as D&D, is NOT D&D, simply because the author of D&D said so. And to me, it is enough.

Cheers,

Antonio

Great post.

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[Breakdaddy]

Whatever you'd like to call or not call it, 3.5 is not my game of choice. As a GM/CK/Referee I tend to be a bit biased since my job becomes a lot more involved when running a 3.5 game than a C&C or even WFRP2 game. I love coming up with cool ideas and plots and characters. What I dont love is having to make huge stat blocks if I want a character codified nor do I enjoy calculating DCs with all the myriad plug-ins and modifiers WOTC has deigned to provide. And forget about high level play and challenging a group as a GM. It can be done, obviously, and some would say easily, but not for me. I am detail oriented and can't let things go very easily. Worse, some of my players are also detail oriented, so they would keep me on my toes were I to slip up or incorrectly apply rules. C&C frees me from much of that, and I am a happier CK for it. I've also noticed that the detail oriented players become less tense and just run with the story as well.

[Treebore]

3E is way to much of a numbers game for me. C&C gets as back to minimal numbers and maximum story. Thats my definition of D&D, which just happens to coincide with Gary Gygax's.

[Dragonhelm]

rabindranath72 wrote:
We will get a hundred different answers, but only one counts, and that is the answer of the person who first envisioned it all: Gary Gygax. If one wants to know what Gary thinks (better yet, how Gary DEFINES D&D) one must only read his books. Since no one is in his head, everyone is entitled to an opinion; but mine, as well as yours, is as valid as the ones of anyone at WotC.

My opinion is that we each define what D&D is for us. Nobody else does. We all have our influences, from life experiences to the words of people like Mr. Gygax, so that shapes our views as well. Many folks here are influenced by the 1e or Basic days. Im influenced a lot by the 2e days, with a little 1e added in for good measure, and some 3e since Ive had to design for it.

More on this train of thought below

Quote:
It is the spirit of the game that counts,

Aha! Here, I think, you hit the nail right on the head.

To play Takhisis Advocate, does the spirit of a game equate to the rules by which they are played?

Here, I think we have a double-edged sword. On the one hand, D&D 3e as written does come across as a very different game with a different feel. On the other, you have companies like Necromancer Games and Goodman Games who produce products with that old school feel, tapping into the very spirit of what D&D is. People can, and do, play d20 with old school feel.

The current Dragonlance sourcebooks work very hard to try to go back to the feel of Dragonlance Adventures and the original modules. While not Gygaxs vision per se, it does hearken back to classic D&D.

I submit that it isnt the rules themselves that are dictating the modern feel of D&D, but the designers. You may be absolutely right in that WotC has little to no interest in pursuing old school feel, and that they miss the mark in how they present their current sourcebooks.

Please understand that Im not trying to be contrary here. Far from it. Truth be told, I think C&C feels more like AD&D too. That being said, I dont think that d20 is a bad game, just that it appeals to a different audience. Rules are tools, so in my mind, the old school D&D feel is up to us to determine, not up to the companies.
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[rabindranath72]

Dragonhelm wrote:
Please understand that Im not trying to be contrary here. Far from it. Truth be told, I think C&C feels more like AD&D too. That being said, I dont think that d20 is a bad game, just that it appeals to a different audience. Rules are tools, so in my mind, the old school D&D feel is up to us to determine, not up to the companies.

Hey Trampas, there is always the need of something contrary! Otherwise discussions would become monologues
Jokes apart, what I was trying to say is that D&D has been defined in the works of Gygax. So, there cannot exist different ideas of what D&D is; you may like it, or not; you may agree with Gygax, or not; but D&D is what he wrote, it is a well defined entity.

Obviously everyone is entitled to change the game at his pleasure, and indeed Gygax encourages this sort of things. I do not know if you have the DMG of the first edition; in the afterward, Gygax encourages to discard the rules (and to "kill" the barrack's ruleslawyers) if they do not fit the spirit of the game. Well, 3.x violates almost all the basic principles of what D&D should be. The worst is that it encourages to NOT put the DM and players ABOVE the rules, which is the epitome of non-D&D-ness.

Obviously, you may tweak, and change and whatnot, and you may still have fun (I too had fun with 3.x for a very brief time!), but it is a fact that, as it stands, the system is not conducive to tweakings by design (a reason I guess you too searched for "something else"). Even the products of Necromancer games etc. still suffer from the rules bloat and meter-long stat blocks that are forced by the system.

I repeat, I am not saying that 3.x is a bad game, or that people who play it are not having fun; far from it! It is simply that, well, it is not D&D.

What I find irritating are the advocates of the 3.x mindset, which, even when shown mathematical evidence that some aspects of 3.x are utterly, completely broken (one for all: the CR and EL systems) still defend the system because "it is written in the book". And when the designers at WotC utter blasphemies like "the average on a d20 die has 50% probability of realisation"...it makes me wonder what marvelous ideas of "balance" they have, which they built into the game
Cheers,

Antonio

[johns]

On the subject of abolishing levels 1-3 ... the new d20 Star Wars Saga Edition now begins 1st level characters with three hit dice. That way, they can fight battles with storm troopers at 1st level without getting killed. I have a feeling the new d20 Star Wars will be the blueprint for 4th edition. Thankfully, I don't have the care what WOTC does with future editions, since I've come home to real D&D in the form of 1E, B/X and C&C.

[serleran]

Ahh, good ol' game design. Its come full circle. We start with Arduin-like character creation, skip over to Arcanum-esque design for resolution mechanics, and dump some White Wolf Storytelling on top for the "roleplay." Yay!

Wake me up when something new happens.

[Dragonhelm]

rabindranath72 wrote:
Hey Trampas, there is always the need of something contrary! Otherwise discussions would become monologues

LOL! True enough! Truth be told, Im enjoying this particular debate.

Quote:
I do not know if you have the DMG of the first edition; in the afterward, Gygax encourages to discard the rules (and to "kill" the barrack's ruleslawyers) if they do not fit the spirit of the game.

LOL! Yeah, Ive got the old 1e DMG in storage at home. I grew up (I was in college) on the 2e DMG, so I have to admit that I havent read the 1e version from cover to cover. Still, thats the type of thing I liked about those old books.

Quote:
Well, 3.x violates almost all the basic principles of what D&D should be. The worst is that it encourages to NOT put the DM and players ABOVE the rules, which is the epitome of non-D&D-ness.

Here, I will really agree with you on. Everything is spelled out. While some may see this as a benefit, I see it as a hindrance. What happens, then, when something is so spelled out that it gets in the way of the story?

Quote:
Obviously, you may tweak, and change and whatnot, and you may still have fun (I too had fun with 3.x for a very brief time!), but it is a fact that, as it stands, the system is not conducive to tweakings by design (a reason I guess you too searched for "something else").

One of them, yes. To me, d20 has some great ideas in concept, but the rules are more complicated than they have to be. I think DMing some with those rules combined with helping all my players with their characters started to drain me.

Ive shopped around for other systems, but what I found was that none truly matched what I wanted. True20 was a bit closer to what I wanted, but it didnt feel very D&D to me. C&C is the closest that I have found. It is very much a D&D game, no matter the title. Plus, it includes some of the good stuff from 3e. No system is ever a perfect match, but C&C allows me to customize to my hearts content.

Quote:
What I find irritating are the advocates of the 3.x mindset, which, even when shown mathematical evidence that some aspects of 3.x are utterly, completely broken (one for all: the CR and EL systems) still defend the system because "it is written in the book".

Youll get that with any game system. There is a special level of hell for rules lawyers

johns wrote:
On the subject of abolishing levels 1-3 ... the new d20 Star Wars Saga Edition now begins 1st level characters with three hit dice. That way, they can fight battles with storm troopers at 1st level without getting killed.

Dark Sun?

Quote:
I have a feeling the new d20 Star Wars will be the blueprint for 4th edition.

It would certainly be taken into consideration.
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[Troll Lord]

Well, you would be less apt to misplace these things if you did a little bit less of this . . .

And a little bit more of this . . .

Steve
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[Buttmonkey]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I had DB 1-3 sitting on the arm of the couch in my den as I looked through them. Getting up, I made some coffee and did a few other things. Upon returning to the den, DB3 was missing. I've looked all over for it and cannot seem to find it at all.

Sitting at the desk, I also now note that my 3rd copy of the PHB is missing as well.

Something fishy is going on....

If I find some underwear gnomes playing C&C in my closet, I'm soooo posting a video of it on youtube.

Step 1: Steal DB3 and PHB

Step 2: ...

Step 3: Profits!

[Julian Grimm]

Look by the coffee pot.
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[Breakdaddy]

If you have a pet, maybe it's trying to learn the game too. They dont have anything to do while youre gone to work all day, they may as well play some C&C!

[DangerDwarf]

Breakdaddy wrote:
If you have a pet, maybe it's trying to learn the game too. They dont have anything to do while youre gone to work all day, they may as well play some C&C!

My dog is more of a 3e kinda dog.

The bastard....

One of my wife's cats is a hell of a CK, a little too TPK happy though.

[serleran]

I've had that happen. Then, I forget that I put it back where I found it... on the bookshelf.

[Jyrdan Fairblade]

I didn't think that Deogolf / Holloway product was out yet...

Breakdaddy wrote:
If you have a pet, maybe it's trying to learn the game too. They dont have anything to do while youre gone to work all day, they may as well play some C&C!

[Lord Dynel]

You don't live by any ninjas, do you?

Oh wait, if you did you probably wouldn't know.

I bet you it was the neighborhood ninjas.

[seskis281]

Ok... I admit....

IT WAS ME!!!

(oh and I shot Kennedy.... and I framed Roger Rabbit too!!)

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[Deogolf]

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
I didn't think that Holloway product was out yet...

Hey, don't forget about me!
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[KRBourgoine]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I had DB 1-3 sitting on the arm of the couch in my den as I looked through them. Getting up, I made some coffee and did a few other things. Upon returning to the den, DB3 was missing. I've looked all over for it and cannot seem to find it at all.

Sitting at the desk, I also now note that my 3rd copy of the PHB is missing as well.

Something fishy is going on....

If I find some underwear gnomes playing C&C in my closet, I'm soooo posting a video of it on youtube.

It was my Unseen Servant. Thanks for the loot!
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[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I had DB 1-3 sitting on the arm of the couch in my den as I looked through them. Getting up, I made some coffee and did a few other things. Upon returning to the den, DB3 was missing. I've looked all over for it and cannot seem to find it at all.

Sitting at the desk, I also now note that my 3rd copy of the PHB is missing as well.

Something fishy is going on....

If I find some underwear gnomes playing C&C in my closet, I'm soooo posting a video of it on youtube.

Check the fridge. Thats where I put a book I was reading once.
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Peter Bradley

[Morgrus]

#1 Rule of thumb. When in doubt it's in sum place stupid. Try the top of the fridg of better yet IN it, I found my remote in the frezer once.
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[Aladar]

Do you have kids?
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[Aladar]

Sorry, it double posted for some reason.
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"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
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[Jyrdan Fairblade]

My apologies - post edited.

Deogolf wrote:
Hey, don't forget about me!