serleran wrote:
No, no. See, if you're going to go all conspiracy, I've got it nailed. Here's the scoop from Snopes.
Paizo, and more obviously, Erik Mona is known for his attempts to keep Greyhawk "thriving." Paizo and Necromancer Games have just announced a partnership. Necromancer Games has been associated with Troll Lord Games, both in collaboration (some authors, notably EGG and Bowbe, have done work for both companies) and publishing. Gary Gygax is a known advocate of Troll Lord Games, as he has numerous projects releases via them.
So, its really all about keeping Greyhawk away from Gary, so WotC can publish "the one true version," and also, the "last and final word" on it, official-like, before walking away and leaving it to flounder.
Yep, that's the truth. I saw it on this here forum, after I typed it.
Julian Grimm wrote:
I'm not into fear/rumormongering but it almost looks like they are gearing up for something.
But I am . Like I said on the Star Wars thread a couple of days ago, we can expect to see 4th edition in about a year or so (depending on how the new Star Wars rules pan out).
R-
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There's been rumours of a 4th edition D&D for about a year now.
Apparently, because of the fact that the D&D miniatures line is pretty much their one profitable line for the D&D name, (the books aren't apparently) they are planning a 4th edition around the D&D miniatures line. Where the minis will be featured prominantly to push sales for the D&D RPG.
ie. A miniatures game w/ RPG elements.
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My hope is that WoTC trashes D&D so bad that I can buy the name from them in the near future and make it the game that it should be! I wonder how much that would cost.
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I haven't gotten a 'new' dragon magazine after around issue 126 or so (man I still love reading the computer game reviews in those mags. makes me break out those games and play them from time to time)...
Pyramid from SJGames has been fully online for years now. weekly content added, access to archived material, access to beta test groups and all that. for a niche of a niche (how many role players, then how many of those subscribe to a magazine), dead tree editions are IMO coming to a close very fast...
I don't expect Crusader to last all that long either - not happy with it, but don't expect it - cause I need some kind of reading material when on the throne, and lugging a laptop is still too heavy and way too hot
Cheers,
Lhorgrim wrote:
This isn't exactly how I expected to make my debut on these boards, but this is a topic I feel qualified to post about...
From one (formerly) frequent EN Worlder to another, welcome to the Crusade, Lhorgim!
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-- E. Gary Gygax
As for the magazines, it's sad news, but I was never one to buy the mags much anyway. I will miss seeing the mags at game stores even though I didn't buy them.
Wow. All the D&D forums at the WotC boards are locked.
The apparent reason?
Quote:
As in the past, we don't allow organized boycotts to take place using WotC servers.
Alot of anti-wotc going on there right now.
WotC posted another response to the end of the mags, tis time they did alot better than..."we're going to give you good on-line content."
It was....
are you ready for it?
OK.
Quote:
Yesterday was sad, but it was exciting, too. Its exciting because I know something that you dont know as yet. I know what happens next. And I cant wait to share that with you, in all its glory. But I cant do that today.
DangerDwarf wrote:
Wow. All the D&D forums at the WotC boards are locked.
The apparent reason?
Alot of anti-wotc going on there right now.
Talking about hearing your customer...
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Its even better when you read Monte's take on the announcement.
Monte Cook wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that there is indeed something keeping them from publishing a new magazine. The absolute smartest thing they could do is to say Dragon and Dungeon are ending, but Wyvern and Labyrinth are starting up the very next month, and even picking up with the same issue numbers. Magazine distributors have monthly "slots" to fill. That's why it's so hard to start a new magazine. It almost has to supplant another one to get a new slot, or you have to go through the major hassle of convincing them to create a new slot. Paizo could just tell its distributors "hey, we're stopping these mags, but here's two others to fill those slots." They could tell their subscribers that Wyvern and Labyrinth subscriptions will just take up where Dragon and Dungeon left off. Sales would still likely decline, but they wouldn't be paying WotC any money, so maybe it would work out OK.
The folks at Paizo aren't dumb. They'd be doing that if they could. So there's really only one explanation. WotC's forcing them to some kind of agreement where they can't put out magazines (maybe for some limited period of time--a sort of non-compete clause lasting a year or two).
Read Paizo's press release for their new subscription product Pathfinder. They're very careful about calling this magazine a "product." It's the only way to get around what must be some kind of restriction.
This also provides us the answer for why WotC would do this. If the magazines were doing poorly, WotC wouldn't care if Paizo put out others. No, it's just the opposite. They're doing well, and likely WotC products--probably specifically adventures--aren't doing as well as WotC wants. There's been some loud voices at WotC crying that Dragon and Dungeon (particularly Dungeon) are too good a value. They're too good for the customer, and smart customers buy them rather than regular products. This was true when WotC put out the magazines, and it's been true under the Paizo banner as well. I'm guessing declining sales gave these voices the evidence they needed to axe the magazines.
I should point out that I don't have any insider knowledge about the cancelation of the magazines, other than the bit about the voices inside WotC that used to call for their cancellation.
As I said in another thread, I am really saddened by this. Some of my fondest "back in the day" memories are sitting around my friend's room in Junior High reading Dragon (he was the only one who's mom would let him have a subscription). No, not reading Dragon--studying it. Devouring it. Pouring over the cover, practically memorizing the articles, and pondering the ads, dreaming about what those products would be like. (Here's something that no one seems to have yet mentioned--I purchased a lot of products over the years based on the ads in Dragon. There will literally be no forum for those kinds of ads anymore.)
I should point out that I have nothing but respect for the guys who have been working on the magazines the last few years. In particular, I think a lot of praise needs to go in the direction of Erik Mona, who really turned those magazines into worthy and worthwhile things--but then again, maybe that was the problem.
I also think that this is likely a huge mistep on WotC's part. No matter what the reason. With 4th edition coming, Dragon is worth hanging onto just for the marketing of that release alone. When we prepared to launch 3E, Dragon was great for getting the word out, releasing previews, and getting people excited. When the game actually came out, both magazines were invaluable for supporting the game. It seems foolish to say it today, but back then I was worried that no one was going to ever create prestige classes other than those in the DMG, and the idea would die on the vine. Dragon was a great forum for me to create additional prestige classes as well as an article or two for instructing people on how to create their own. That's just one example.
I just hope I can afford to support the Pathfinder (book, not mag or product. 96 pages, full color, no ads, and if you subscribe you get a pdf copy thrown in), but at $20.00 I am not sure I can justify getting it every month. Plus it is too expensive for me to subscribe 6 or 12 months ahead, let alone 3 years like I sis with Dungeon.
Even the subscription really only saves you $2.00, because shipping is $4.00.
At least you get the pdf as a free bonus.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Treebore wrote:
I just hope I can afford to support the Pathfinder (book, not mag or product. 96 pages, full color, no ads, and if you subscribe you get a pdf copy thrown in), but at $20.00 I am not sure I can justify getting it every month. Plus it is too expensive for me to subscribe 6 or 12 months ahead, let alone 3 years like I sis with Dungeon.
Even the subscription really only saves you $2.00, because shipping is $4.00.
At least you get the pdf as a free bonus.
Yeah, the price stalled me momentarily as well. But, I generally spend more than $18 a month on RPG purchases anyways, so I'm just going to cut my normal game related purchases back by that much. Plus, I like the fact that I'll be getting a 96 page module shipped to me every month with no effort on my part.
If it doesn't live up to my expectations, I'll drop my subscription.
This whole thing reminds me of New Coke. And we know how well that caught on.
I'm talking about the dropping of Dragon and Dungeon. Not Pathfinder.
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Haha, saw your post on the WOTC boards right below mine! Stoke those fires brother. I need to call the president Troll. Blood in the water at WOTC is good for C&C! Muaha
Bowbe wrote:
Haha, saw your post on the WOTC boards right below mine! Stoke those fires brother. I need to call the president Troll. Blood in the water at WOTC is good for C&C! Muaha
Case
Yeah, I've had a log-on there since 03, just little reason to visit. All the blood in the water currently has me intrigued and spending more than a little time chiming in.
I saw your post and was glad to see at least one familiar name.
I had been a silent observer toll someone bashed Gary. Then I had to speak up. After that I said to hell with it and started giving my opinions on other areas.
Bowbe wrote:
Yeah I roasted some a-holes who were bashing Gary and had never even met or knew the guy over there. That was the last time I posted as well.
Case
I think that was the last thread I was involved in over there as well.
Hmmm. Maybe I should go see if my account still works and get into some heated web fighting.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Bowbe wrote:
Haha, saw your post on the WOTC boards right below mine! Stoke those fires brother. I need to call the president Troll. Blood in the water at WOTC is good for C&C! Muaha
Case
*smiles* He's already more than aware of it. The Eye of Sauron see's all...knows all. ^_~`
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DangerDwarf wrote:
Thats what I dislike about it. I bear no love for either mag since d20. Not knocking the job Paizo has done, just the system the mags use. But having them gone?
Kinda disturbing for some odd reason. The symbolic value, the legacy.
Hmmm. *shrug*
Never thought I'd say that. Heh.
This is how I feel as well, these have been around since I started playing and its kind of sucks that WotC pulls the license from Paizo, after Paizo took over production of the unwanted mags. (And did a good job with them)
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I posted much the same thing on Dragonsfoot in regards this yopic:
Howdy,
FWIW, I think the yanking of the licenses from Piazo is merely the latest in a long line of errors of judgement by WotC. This one hurts not only Wizards but the whole of the RPG hobby, as it removes the two best known periodicals from magazine stands, and from the hands of devoted 3E fans.
What a great way to maintain consumer loyalty and build the base of RPG fans. Of course I have never noticed Hasbro evidencingany interest in creating consumer loyalty. They are a toy company, not one interest in game hobbyists.
The fact that it seems like a childish attempt to retain control over something out-performing them is ludicrous. If it had been about money, WotC could renegotiate terms of the license... so perhaps that is not it. There must be some other reason for the pulling, one that is not so obviously evident, though it undoubtedly has nothing to do with wanting to provide "more" to the consumer (WotC already gives downloads of stuff, and has a daily/monthly article/idea) all over the website. No... there is a reason, and it is petty.
I'm not sure it is WotCs decision, per se, in fact, but a command from the on-high Godhead of Hasbro...
This is probably the best post I've seen about the subject. It was originally posted by a man on the WotC boards:
Quote:
Yes, the boards are covered with reactions to the recent cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon. Mine will get lost in the stampede, I know.
But I had to say something.
I have been playing D&D since 1980 when I was in the fifth grade. It has been an integral and important part of my life ever since, and I am looking forward to teaching my son how to play when he is 10, (the same age I was when I started.) In the last 27 years, the longest I have ever gone without a D&D game is about a month. (I know that I'm not unique. There are many I am sure who have played for more years, or more often.) During that 27 years, I have had and let expire a subscription to Dragon several times and I currently have a subscription to Dungeon. I still regularly buy a Dragon off the shelf.
When I read that both magazines were to be cancelled in their paper form, it struck me a blow like a punch in the gut. Even though I haven't had a 27 year subscription to either, it still hurt, and I couldn't figure out why at that moment. The more I read though, I came to a realization.
From what I understand, much of the content that both magazines delivered will move to an online, PDF style format. This probably makes sense from a business model standpoint. (I'm not a business type, so I don't know.) It probably even makes sense from a 'save-the-planet-don't-cut-down-more-trees' standpoint. (I'm also not a tree-hugger, but I can see the point.)
What hurts me though is the automatic assumption that content delivered on the internet is somehow better. And that's where I have a problem.
I watch more and more kids tune out the world by plugging into their iPods. I grouse when I see people willingly pay to watch streaming video on a cellphone screen the size of my thumbnail. And I shake my head when I see kids spend untold hours in front of an Xbox, letting somebody else have an imagination for them.
I don't want to face it, but I have to. I'm getting old. And the latest announcement about Dragon and Dungeon made that hit home to me in a way that the aforementioned things haven't.
Yes. I am sitting here at my rather spiffy computer. Yes, I have downloaded many D&D resources from the web. Yes, I am putting this post/rant on a message-board. (I was programming in basic on a MC-10 computer in 1982 when 20k (!!) of RAM was considered good, so I'm not a technophobe either.)
But as I sit here, I look up on my bookshelf, and my eyes lovingly pass over my enormous collection of books and magazines. Almost 30 years of collected memories...epic quests...desperate battles against overwhelming odds...spectacular vistas that only my mind could create in such wonder-filled ways....and endless hours spent with great friends who were my friends because only they could feel that same sense of shivering excitement that I felt whenever we played D&D.
These memories are brought rushing back when I brush my fingers over the well-worn spines of my books. The blue wizard and fighter perpetually facing off against the blue dragon on his pile of treasure....the original Monster Manual with its horrible cover art...the Fiend Folio with the Elric of Melnibone mythos in it, (the one that made me feel somehow part of a special club because I had an illegal book)...the thieves who were always trying to get the gem out of the demonic statue...the cover of Dragon #72 with the Black Dragon, wherein lay the class where I found my true calling and spent years playing. (I'll let you guess.) Every book and magazine holds memories for me. They are all beat up, faded, scratched and stained from innumerable gaming sessions. They have made every move with me from the time I was 10...through high school and my endless frustration with girls that could only be assuaged by gaming...through college where I finally made the aquaintance of women who didn't care that I gamed...through getting married and then watching my kids be born and grow...my D&D books and magazines have been with me, many of them longer than I have been married...and I love every one of them.
I can't get that same feeling by running my fingers over the computer screen. Pulling up a PDF and squinting at the screen just isn't the same as grabbing a book and hearing the sound that pages make as they rub against each other. A PDF doesn't have a coke stain on it from the night my paladin died saving the party from a demon...a PDF can't be ripped, like the night that my gaming group was torn apart by a fight in high school... A PDF doesn't have the eraser smudges from a character sheet that was taken from 1st to 18th level on the same sheet of paper over four years of gaming. (I still have all of those items, and the memories they evoke are still powerful.)
That's why I finally realize I'm getting old. I don't WANT to read articles, stories, adventure paths, etc on the computer screen. It's cold....it's impersonal...it's just not the same. I want to be able to bring my books and magazines with me when I play. I like being able to have five or six of them open on the table as I DM another session. I love being able to take a book with me to bed, to fall asleep with it on my chest. I can't do that with a computer. And I'll admit it, I like being able to take my books with me to the bathroom! (That's quality time folks! Get married and have kids and you'll realize how important that door is.) I can't take a computer with me there. I love the sound and feel of dice as I roll them on the table...something that a computer can't do.
A computer screen is NOT and never will REPLACE a book or magazine. Period. It will supplant, it will overthrow, it will shove out of the way...but a computer will never replace.
So as WoTC moves their content to a more and more online format, I and others like me who like paper are being left behind in the stone-ages of role playing. We are fossils to be put on a shelf, like all of those useless 'dead tree' books and magazines and talked about but not used. (And occasionally laughed at for our ancient ways.) We might be remembered as pioneers, as trailblazers, as the generation that began the form....but we will no longer be catered to, we will no longer be served.
We will be ignored. We are already being forgotten.
Thanks for making me feel useless and old.
Caird MacDondolach
(the longest running PC I ever had...23rd level and 9 years of playing...and I still have the original character sheet.)
PS Yes...I will continue to play, every week. But I will use my books and magazines like the fossil that I apparently am.
Perhaps a more proactive sort of gesture is in order?
Instead of railing against WOTC/Hasbro or whomever is clearly not listening, show your protest with your own time and dollars.
Support the companies that, you feel, are going to give you what you want. And/or if a 'zine' is the thing for many a person the more creative and proactive people around here ought to stand up and submit the type of articles that cater to the paper pusher community?
If enough of a fan base gets behind something like the Crusader, C&C, or whatever appeals to the individual the most, the 'sponsor' like people will come in and build the structure of the peoples choice even bigger.
Sure, TLG could, perhaps, find a niche in this new void. But how big said niche will become is squarely on the fan base to make it grow.
Although, on a more whymsical note, might be careful about using the words "crusade' and "evangelize" in the same sentence structure. ^_^
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"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
From my understanding the vast majority of bad decisions on the part of WOTC post the Hasbro take-over have been curious "In house" decisions since Hasbro doesn't really take any more money out of WOTC %wise than Mr. Adkison and his partners did when they were at the helm. Hasbro more or less bought a company that had a estimated value somewhere in the 50 million range but took away the brains that had made it into a 50 million range company in the buyout. Within a year (Partially due to the national economic upheavals of Sept 11th attacks, the gaming industry hit a major slump and WOTC itself was worth considerably less than half of what it had been worth before. Being the owner of the official D&D license, its value could be deemed "priceless".
Remember the first printing of the 3e core books? Those actually cost WOTC about 10 bucks a book to produce if i remember correctly. This was a bad decision business wise but it was endearing to fans old and new alike that a company would "take it in the shorts" to get people excited about D&D again. WOTC were good guys.
So they increased the price for the 2nd printing, which people groaned at that but couldnt fault them for wanting to make some profit.
Hasbro bought them and they came out with 3.5 (many blamed Hasbro) and the price of the books went up again (and everyone groaned more...(C&C was born from this, a very good thing). Suddenly creative teams put together by Mr. Adkison were dismantled and any and all lasting vestiges of the old TSR were excised with the exception of a small few.
The answer was "cost saving" or that certain individuals were spending time on their own d20 companies then they were on their job. Others of course left due to "creative differences".
However I'm thinking its been the "creative differences" all along. Without Mr. Adkison's guidance WOTC has made error after error in guaging fan opinions and fan loyalty to their products.
Look through the list of names from 3.0 edition PHB and who of the primary authors and developers is left helming their D&D line?
Chris Pramas: Green Ronin
Monte Cook: Future projects unknown, after a successful run with Malhavoc (Co Author of 3ed)
Ryan Dancy, the Architect of D20/OGL licenses that insures the survival of some form of true table top role play (Hallalujah): Organized Play
Jeff Grubb: Various Freelance Projects
Johnathon Tweet: Still with Wizards but working on other projects "Read Dreamblade " (Co Author of 3ed)
Skip Williams: Now Freelancing (Co Author of 3ed)
Ed Stark: Is he still with Wizards?
Sean Reynolds: No Longer with WOTC... has his own company, and wrote for Malhavoc...
Anyhow I get side tracked. There are a couple of names not mentioned above who are still found in their new books. Possibly the ones that the creative differences were with?
I also note that I think its interesting how most people who are REALLY bummed about this (Like making crazy threats on the WOTC boards) also mention how they liked the officialness of Dragon/Dungeon vs. 3rd party "crap".
I offer for submission that alot of the authors and developers of that 3rd party crap they name specifically now freelance or work in R&D for>>> WOTC's D&D line.
Wotc has, at least, managed to unite the fanbase at last.
Even if its a unified fury.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
gideon_thorne wrote:
Well. Look at the bright side, all.
Wotc has, at least, managed to unite the fanbase at last.
Even if its a unified fury.
All too true. I've long held anti-wotc sentiments but cannot hold a candle to the frothing mouthed fan-boys right now. Yikes.
gideon_thorne wrote:
Instead of railing against WOTC/Hasbro or whomever is clearly not listening, show your protest with your own time and dollars.
Support the companies that, you feel, are going to give you what you want.
There's a lot of talk like that on the wizard boards currently as well. I'd like to say I'll quit giving them my money but truthfully, I haven't made a WotC purchase since the core 3 3.5 books (maybe the DLCS book, I don't think SP published that). But this is a golden opportunity to get some people to see some of the amazing products that 3rd party people have done.
*cough* TLG *cough* *cough*
I'll of course be pointing that out whenever the opportunity presents itself.
