Paizo no longer publishing Dragon or Dungeon mags

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:04 am

Nothing captures that Dragon feel circa #90-#130 or so... sigh.
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ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:30 am

I just think WotC is doing all this in preparation of their D&D 4th ed. Now that dragon and dungeon mags became good selling points "again" because of Paizo's hard work, they want them back. WotC should drop D&D altogether and call the game something like the "Collectable endless feat RPG of skills and powers of ultimate re-scratched rolling character freaks that you were not happy about with the first 50 rolls." Where you will buy the random book that you will never know what the content is like at just 59$ USD. Collect and roll them all, they never end!
With that in mind, it is good news, Trolllords will potentially benefit from "new" customers.
ZW.
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Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:39 pm

This has been an interesting thread, all right. Here's a copy of my response on an Alternity fansite:

"...That said, the last issue of Dragon I bought was in early 2001, and I gave up on Dungeon a year later. It had, in my opinion, already suffered a fall easily as profound as that of White Dwarf.

Looking at it from Wizards' perspective, however, I can see this as a potential disaster. The Internet gaming environment is a level playing field. Old ESDs of Star Frontiers, or Fred Bloggs's new super-Universal Engine compete with Wizards' products far more easily when you lost the dead-tree infrastructure.

Like it or not, existence in print is still a benchmark of success and reliability to many, including a large number of gamers. Losing their published magazines, that newsagent-shelf presence, pushes roleplaying in general, and Wizards in particular, more and more into the internet-only regime, which is all very well but no substitute for the real thing. The existence of these magazines trumpeted the triumph of D&D to the world. Now that is gone, and another sign of success with it.

Watch your backs, Wizards."

Crusader just got a new job, methinks. I have no great love for WotCor their game systems, their path and mine separated many years ago*, but at the end of the day the people who work there are gamers, just like me. they've had a chance to pursue their passion as a livelihood, and that's a rare thing in this world. Seeing them face the threat of losing that saddens me.

If 4E tries to become a miniatures game, they're going to run full-on into the tabletop wargaming market, who will Tear. Them. To. Shreds.

*It really was a shame. I really wanted to like 3E. I liked the idea of removing racial class restrictions, I loved the idea of unified task resolution and a proper skill system, but the tone of the game let me down flat. The tone of the game became, almost overnight, close to hysterical and often quite immature, the quality of the writing definitely suffered, and despite earlier promises to the contrary, within a few months the tide of splatbooks came in again.

3rd party publishers kept me keen for a bit, but not long.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:49 pm

This is an early draft of something I am writing for the next issue of The Keeper. I feel that due to the situation I am going to relase it now. It will be in Keeper #2 although cleaned up and with more 'meat' to it.:

Quote:
As many of us now know a tradition and era has ended. Dungeon and Dragon magazines will be no more. Over thirty years of gaming tradition has been wiped away by a corporate pen. Like many of you I mourn the passing of these magazines. One of the final links we had to the previous era of gaming is gone. It is sad to see these icons go, but I am not taken by those thoughts. See, there is something else to turn to.

The ending of this era is not an absolute end. There is something else there for us. Something that now can take torch and move on into the new era for us. You see we still have The Crusader. And just as C&C is prooving to be the sucessor to D&D, The Crusader will be the sucessor to Dragon. We also have this newsletter, countless messageborads and other media that we can access. Dungeon and Dragon my have died in name but not in spirit!

It is now up to us to forge the new path and shape this era of gaming. Just as those before us shaped and forged an entire hobby we can help shape the future of our hobby. You see, our roots go back to those early days. The name of Castles and Crusades and the Castle and Crusade Society goes back to before role playing was a hobby. The names were chosen for our game to reflect that. And it is something I am proud of becuase of its historic roots.

We are the decendants of that era. And like those before us we can shape what we dream and recapture the feel of those early days. Though the names are different the intent is not. Gone is Dungeons and Dragons, Gencon, the RPGA, and even Dungeon and Dragon magazine. In its place is the Lake Geneva Gaming Convention, the C&CS, Castles and Crusades and The Crusader. May I dare add to the prestigious list The Keeper? I shall but humbly as I feel that we are not worthy to stand with the traditions of these giants as of yet, maybe we never shall be worthy but we will try.

So Crusaders, I urge you to embrace this new era. Join the Castles and Crusades Society, run demoes of C&C, subscribe and contrubute to the Crusader and make what we have been given into a shining example of tradition and hostory of this grand hobby. I salute those that have done so and those that will do so. I shall also honor those that have done great works for C&C just for the love of the game. And try to stand with them, even if in their shadow, to make this the finest movement and game in the history of gaming.

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Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:05 pm

A quick comment regarding the D20 and OGL.

Both were very stupid concepts that harmed WotC, the OGL permanently.

The D20 license also screwed WotC (and collateraly Hasbro), fans, and the RPG industry.

The reasons I make such assertions should be self-evident.

Cheers,

Gary

ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:08 pm

Col_Pladoh wrote:
A quick comment regarding the D20 and OGL.

Both were very stupid concepts that harmed WotC, the OGL permanently.

The D20 license also screwed WotC (and collateraly Hasbro), fans, and the RPG industry.

The reasons I make such assertions should be self-evident.

Cheers,

Gary

I agree, I think they wanted to see what "ideas" got a good or bad reaction from consumers without getting their own hands dirty. Only picking and using the good ones for them. However, a good idea might be great for some but it might be bad for others.

They definitely have faithful D&D brand name followers, (I say brand here, since most have no idea what the real deal was!) because with that business model they have now, they should be selling chocolate candy bars to pay their next dept.

Besides if the d20/OGL system was that good, they would not need to change and update the rules every freaking month. They are using their consumers as alpha and beta testers.

If I recall, I did not have to test the OD&D and AD&D. It was not a perfect game. (I never understood the alignment language thing, Mr. Gygax. How does Chaotic Neutral sound like?) But it was and still is a whole lot of a fun game.
C&C obviously comes close to old school gaming and it is with hope that the new players discover where RPGs came from and discover that the real thing is the real deal.

ZW.

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:21 pm

ZeornWarlock wrote:
...

...(I never understood the alignment language thing, Mr. Gygax. How does Chaotic Neutral sound like?) But it was and still is a whole lot of a fun game.
...

ZW.

Pretty much the same as how Latin sounds toRoman Catholics today, only the Alignment Languages envisioned in OAD&D were meant to be less exhaustive in vocabulary...more akin to a mix of secret signs and special words conveying some limited amount of information to others of the same alignment
Cheerio,

Gary

ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:54 pm

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Pretty much the same as how Latin sounds toRoman Catholics today, only the Alignment Languages envisioned in OAD&D were meant to be less exhaustive in vocabulary...more akin to a mix of secret signs and special words conveying some limited amount of information to others of the same alignment
Cheerio,

Gary

AH! And where was that written in the books? Just kidding. Thanks for clearing this up for me and a box of cereal to you to, sir.
ZW.
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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:39 am

Col_Pladoh wrote:
A quick comment regarding the D20 and OGL.

Both were very stupid concepts that harmed WotC, the OGL permanently.

The D20 license also screwed WotC (and collateraly Hasbro), fans, and the RPG industry.

The reasons I make such assertions should be self-evident.

Mr. Gygax, I must respectfully disagree. While I don't agree with all of WotC's decisions, I do think that the OGL has allowed for some remarkable gaming material, not the least of which was Castles & Crusades!

I will admit that there were some clunkers out there and that the OGL killed off many other game systems (thereby killing competition). Despite that, I think a lot of companies got a chance to produce some great stuff that normally would have been overlooked by D&D diehards.

(I can't believe I'm disagreeing with the creator of D&D... )

BTW, thanks for the clarification on the alignment language thing. That always confused me.

Back to topic...

I think that now would be an excellent time for Crusader to step it up a notch. It could be the natural "heir" to Dragon.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:41 am

*smiles* When someone makes a gaff, the smart take advantage. Hence, C&C.

Never give a sucker an even break. ^_~`
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:50 am

As someone that was hoping to put adds for his own self-published RPG in Dragon Magazine (great, just when I get the cash together at last to get artwork produced and a website done) I must say this sucks big donkey t**ti**e. Where else will some small company be able to put in a 1/4 page advert for their new RPG where it will be seen by a large percentage (relatively speaking) of the game industry? Is it me or does WotC basically want to squash every last vestige of the gaming industry not under its direct (or indirect) control?

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:52 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
Mr. Gygax, I must respectfully disagree. While I don't agree with all of WotC's decisions, I do think that the OGL has allowed for some remarkable gaming material, not the least of which was Castles & Crusades!

That's my take on it, too. I don't think the OGL was very good for WotC (not in the long term, anyway), but it was really good for gamers, IMO. Personally, I like seeing things like C&C, Yggsburgh, and the Pied Piper modules in print -- the OGL helped make that possible. And unlike a license to use the "Dungeon" and "Dragon" trademarks, the OGL cannot suffer from revocation or "let's not renew the license" tactics.

Quote:
I will admit that there were some clunkers out there and that the OGL killed off many other game systems (thereby killing competition).

I'm not so sure about the OGL killing competition. OGL games can vary widely in their rules -- they're not forced to conform, so they're not stifling competition. I think the "one system to rule them all" condemnation is better leveled at the d20 license, rather than the OGL.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:02 am

Keolander wrote:
As someone that was hoping to put adds for his own self-published RPG in Dragon Magazine (great, just when I get the cash together at last to get artwork produced and a website done) I must say this sucks big donkey t**ti**e. Where else will some small company be able to put in a 1/4 page advert for their new RPG where it will be seen by a large percentage (relatively speaking) of the game industry? Is it me or does WotC basically want to squash every last vestige of the gaming industry not under its direct (or indirect) control?

The loss of Dragon and Dungeon will definitely cut out exposure for other companies, though I think there are still alternatives like EN World and GamingReport.com. Personally, I think EN World has affected my RPG purchase decisions more than Dragon has.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:33 pm

I'm almost positive that they've sniped more than a couple of my posts on the WotC boards mentioned checking out other publishers.

Cant find them at all.
And I wasn't being an ass or anything. But some posts most definitely appear to have disappeared.

Bastards.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:03 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I'm almost positive that they've sniped more than a couple of my posts on the WotC boards mentioned checking out other publishers.

Cant find them at all.
And I wasn't being an ass or anything. But some posts most definitely appear to have disappeared.

Bastards.

They do that when your posts are 'advertizing' another game. So yes, they dont want competition on their boards. ^_~`
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:07 pm

You've got to check this out.

[/end advert/SPAM]

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:29 pm

ZeornWarlock wrote:
AH! And where was that written in the books? Just kidding. Thanks for clearing this up for me and a box of cereal to you to, sir.
ZW.

Which calls to mind the ancient axiom: "A word to the wise is sufficient."

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:01 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
Mr. Gygax, I must respectfully disagree. While I don't agree with all of WotC's decisions, I do think that the OGL has allowed for some remarkable gaming material, not the least of which was Castles & Crusades!

Disagree as you will, but in doing so address the assertion that was my primary one for calling the issuing of the two licenses stupid moves. That is they damaged WotC's IP rights, gained the company virtually nothing in return.

What other publishers have made from the use of those licenses is not in the least germane to the question.

Quote:
I will admit that there were some clunkers out there and that the OGL killed off many other game systems (thereby killing competition). Despite that, I think a lot of companies got a chance to produce some great stuff that normally would have been overlooked by D&D diehards.

The small advantage gained for the D&D game because of the two licenses is far outweighed by the disadvantages attendant to the D20 and OGL. The D20 license can be withdrawn, but doing so will be akin to locking the barn door after the horse has been stolen. The OGL is there for ever without recourse.

Quote:
(I can't believe I'm disagreeing with the creator of D&D... )

BTW, thanks for the clarification on the alignment language thing. That always confused me.

Discourse is of this type is edifying, no?

And of course you are welcome regarding the Alignment Languages clarification.

Quote:
Back to topic...

I think that now would be an excellent time for Crusader to step it up a notch. It could be the natural "heir" to Dragon.

Here we are in total agreement, and I believe that the Trolls are contemplating just that very thing
Here I weill set forth the principal reasons for my assertion that the two licenses are harmful to WotC, and to the gaming audience:

1. WotC loses many of their IP rights.

2. They have no creative control over material produced under the licenses.

3. They receive no royalties from products produced and sold under the licenses.

4. Such sales do indeed take away from the potential income earnable by WotC and gain little in the way of adding to D&D game sales to balance the loss.

5. Products produced under the licenses do not further strengthen name recogtnition of the D&D mark, as it does not appear on said products, while the D20 mark is not a valuable property, merely a minor adjucnt to the D&D one as well as a competing one for income from consumers of the D&D brand products.

6. No consumer loyalty is gained through the issuance of the two licenses.

7. Some amount of consumer loyalty is lost because of a considerable amount of questionable product quality sold under the D20 mark, while OGL products tend mainly to errode the D&D game consumer base.

Thus neither license is well advised for furthering the longevity of a true hobby game publisher...just as was the divestature of GenCon, virtual cessation of the RPGA, and alteration of the Dragon and Dungeon from paper magazines to electronic ones.

To me it seems clear that WotC is not now a hobby game publisher, but rather an adjunct of a mass market toy and game manufacturer.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:01 pm

Duplicate post deleted

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:02 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* When someone makes a gaff, the smart take advantage. Hence, C&C.

Never give a sucker an even break. ^_~`

Aptly put.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:09 pm

ZeornWarlock wrote:
I just think WotC is doing all this in preparation of their D&D 4th ed. Now that dragon and dungeon mags became good selling points "again" because of Paizo's hard work, they want them back. WotC should drop D&D altogether and call the game something like the "Collectable endless feat RPG of skills and powers of ultimate re-scratched rolling character freaks that you were not happy about with the first 50 rolls." Where you will buy the random book that you will never know what the content is like at just 59$ USD. Collect and roll them all, they never end!
With that in mind, it is good news, Trolllords will potentially benefit from "new" customers.
ZW.

Especially of the 4E will be mainly a miniatures game that resembles Warcraft more that the original D&D RPG.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:13 pm

Keolander wrote:
As someone that was hoping to put adds for his own self-published RPG in Dragon Magazine (great, just when I get the cash together at last to get artwork produced and a website done) I must say this sucks big donkey t**ti**e. Where else will some small company be able to put in a 1/4 page advert for their new RPG where it will be seen by a large percentage (relatively speaking) of the game industry? Is it me or does WotC basically want to squash every last vestige of the gaming industry not under its direct (or indirect) control?

That is also true. The only large-circulation gamine magazines are soon to be defunct save as an ezine.

Cheers,

Gary

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:13 pm

Col_Pladoh wrote:
Especially of the 4E will be mainly a miniatures game that resembles Warcraft more that the original D&D RPG.

Cheers,

Gary

Methinks, due to the forthcoming 'online' model of the late lamented Dragon and Dungeon magazine, any purported 4e will also move to an online model.

More akin to the online World of Warcraft with virtual miniatures than anything table top.

Just a guess, mind. ^_^
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Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:20 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
That's my take on it, too. I don't think the OGL was very good for WotC (not in the long term, anyway), but it was really good for gamers, IMO. Personally, I like seeing things like C&C, Yggsburgh, and the Pied Piper modules in print -- the OGL helped make that possible. And unlike a license to use the "Dungeon" and "Dragon" trademarks, the OGL cannot suffer from revocation or "let's not renew the license" tactics.

I'm not so sure about the OGL killing competition. OGL games can vary widely in their rules -- they're not forced to conform, so they're not stifling competition. I think the "one system to rule them all" condemnation is better leveled at the d20 license, rather than the OGL.

See my post in response to Dragonhelm's. You too have failed to make a cogent argumant in response to what I asserted.

As a FYI, the Yggsburgh project could well have been published with a generic rules system sumilar to that used by Inner City Games for its fantasy adventure modules, so the OGL was not the main reason for the creation of the material. I went with the C&C system because TLG is my primary publisher.

In addition, the OGL has indeed limited the diversity of game systems being produced, and thus it damages the hobby.

Cheers,

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:22 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
The loss of Dragon and Dungeon will definitely cut out exposure for other companies, though I think there are still alternatives like EN World and GamingReport.com. Personally, I think EN World has affected my RPG purchase decisions more than Dragon has.

As a matter of fact, the majority of RPGers are not active online, do not subscribe to EN World or any similar website.

Cheerio,

Gary

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:30 pm

It might sound odd, but I hope 4e goes the way of the wargame, because then, it will lose most of its association with a roleplaying game, allowing true RPGs to emerge as the "best of the niche" and D&D will be forced to compete with the, probably, best-known one current: Warhammer, and that will be a difficult uphill struggle. Alternatively, D&D could just abandon tables completely and become laptop happy; they do have a strong tradition of video/console games. I do think a miniature-centric D&D game (more so than the current version) is the only hope to remove the stigmatization associated with our hobby. It just has to stay that way.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:30 pm

Col_Pladoh wrote:
As a matter of fact, the majority of RPGers are not active online, do not subscribe to EN World or any similar website.

Cheerio,

Gary

I can attest to that. Up untill about year 2000 or so, I had never heard of EnWorld, Dragonsfoot or not had the idea occur to me at all that there were any online gaming communities.

I spent most of my time in game shops/ book stores talking to people face to face. A mode of communication I still prefer over the limitations of online methods. ^_^
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Col_Pladoh · Post by **Col_Pladoh** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:43 pm

serleran wrote:
It might sound odd, but I hope 4e goes the way of the wargame, because then, it will lose most of its association with a roleplaying game, allowing true RPGs to emerge as the "best of the niche" and D&D will be forced to compete with the, probably, best-known one current: Warhammer, and that will be a difficult uphill struggle. Alternatively, D&D could just abandon tables completely and become laptop happy; they do have a strong tradition of video/console games. I do think a miniature-centric D&D game (more so than the current version) is the only hope to remove the stigmatization associated with our hobby. It just has to stay that way.

Seeing as how Hasbro had WotC divest itself of the chain of game stores that were acquired and being increased, competition with Games Workshop is no longer likely.

Cheers,

Gary

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:46 pm

Quote:
I can attest to that. Up untill about year 2000 or so, I had never heard of EnWorld, Dragonsfoot or not had the idea occur to me at all that there were any online gaming communities.

I'm even slower than that. I found RPG.now in late 2005, and then this site LATE last year.

Quote:
I spent most of my time in game shops/ book stores talking to people face to face. A mode of communication I still prefer over the limitations of online methods. ^_^

I agree there except that on sites like this you get to talk to people literaly around the world, and get the info straight from the horses mouth.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:47 pm

Col_Pladoh wrote:
See my post in response to Dragonhelm's. You too have failed to make a cogent argumant in response to what I asserted.

Well, I agree with you about the d20 license and the OGL being a bad business decision for WotC -- so no argument, there. Nevertheless, I'm grateful that they did it, because that action helped to open the door for some products that I like very much.

Quote:
As a FYI, the Yggsburgh project could well have been published with a generic rules system...

Yes, it could have. Such approaches are certainly viable. However, I usually prefer the use of familiar terms, mechanics, et cetera, if given the choice. Whatever drawbacks are associated with the OGL, it definitely makes that possible without infringing on trademarks or copyrights.

Quote:
In addition, the OGL has indeed limited the diversity of game systems being produced, and thus it damages the hobby.

Can you please elaborate on this? I can see that applying to the d20 license, but I don't understand how the OGL limits diversity.