The Golden Compass... Movie

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:41 am

Treebore wrote:
But that is what would have to be discussed to explain why Ser is able to interpret the Narnia books the way he does.

Indeed.

Treebore wrote:
So we are going to have to remain ambiguous. Plus polite.

Agreed.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:51 am

Treebore wrote:
I think if we started discussing how much "pagan" belief's and even ceremonies are practiced in Christian faiths this would quickly degenerate into a nature not desired on this message board.

But that is what would have to be discussed to explain why Ser is able to interpret the Narnia books the way he does.

So we are going to have to remain ambiguous. Plus polite.

We can still be polite and discuss it. It's just that whenever I hear about that "so much paganism in Christianity" stuff it's mostly from people who have never fully researched Christian history or have even read the New Testament. Honestly, how many people here can say that they've fully read the New Testament? Intent in the author's mind when they write something should be taken into account. Now how you can relate to it is one thing, but the allegory is there because it was meant to be allegorical.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:07 am

Orpheus wrote:
It's just that whenever I hear about that "so much paganism in Christianity" stuff it's mostly from people who have never fully researched Christian history or have even read the New Testament. Honestly, how many people here can say that they've fully read the New Testament?

*raises hand* And, as a historian and sometime scholar, I also read a good chunk of the fable and folklore that came before it. I may not be able to recite from memory, which is why I am a 'sometime' scholar, but I did do my homework.

Its nothing new. Its a simple fact that later cultures borrowed from cultures that came before. Differing peoples mixed and matched and various mythos blended together. Tis why one see's so many common elements mixed into myth and folklore world wide.

Myth, fantasy, fable, folklore, tales of hero's gone by, folk hero's ect ect, its all a way to entertain or explain the inexplicable.

Culture is so complex it would take a true genius to invent something totally new, its far easier to find bits from various places that work for the particular brand of over all story one is going for and rewrite a bit and change the names to protect the innocent.
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:14 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its nothing new. Its a simple fact that later cultures borrowed from cultures that came before. Differing peoples mixed and matched and various mythos blended together. Tis why one see's so many common elements mixed into myth and folklore world wide.

Seeing common elements explains a synchronicity, but doesn't provide proof that one borrowed from the other; especially in light of the fact that Christianity sprang from a thounsands-of-years old Jewish tradition.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:19 am

As far as I know christianism used to incorporate elements of other religious beliefs into itself, it is called syncretism and one of the ways to ease the change of religion for conquered people.

I am sure mr Vey can correct me if I am wrong though.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:20 am

All I will say on this matter is that I am sorry for proposing something so heated; it was not my intention. If the discussion wants to go towards a more theological slant, so be it, but I will not continue it, nor participate in it; even with my background, I find such arguments futile at best.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:20 am

Orpheus wrote:
Seeing common elements explains a synchronicity, but doesn't provide proof that one borrowed from the other; especially in light of the fact that Christianity sprang from a thounsands-of-years old Jewish tradition.

Which came from eons of even older cultures and mixings therof and so forth. It didnt form in a vacume.
Archaeological studies have well established such connections. Man's need to explain the inexplixable, as I suggested. ^_^
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:29 am

Nifelhein wrote:
As far as I know christianism used to incorporate elements of other religious beliefs into itself, it is called syncretism and one of the ways to ease the change of religion for conquered people.

Not just of conquered people but to more easily spread it to others. People are inherently more inclined to go with the familiar.

dcs · Post by **dcs** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:31 am

Nifelhein wrote:
As far as I know christianism used to incorporate elements of other religious beliefs into itself, it is called syncretism and one of the ways to ease the change of religion for conquered people.

It would be more accurate to say that the Church 'baptized' cultural elements that were capable of being understood in a Christian sense.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Archaeological studies have well established such connections.

Which archaeological studies and which connections?
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:32 am

serleran wrote:
All I will say on this matter is that I am sorry for proposing something so heated; it was not my intention. If the discussion wants to go towards a more theological slant, so be it, but I will not continue it, nor participate in it; even with my background, I find such arguments futile at best.

No it's fine. I ain't mad atcha homie. Yes, they are often futile and I'm by no means trying to get anyone to believe in Christianity. Also Peter, I'm not saying that the religion didn't form in a vacuum. I'm just saying that the idea that the Christianity borrows heavily from paganism is a fallacy. It's one of those little modern myths that get spread around like the history of Wicca. Anthropological evidence doesn't support it.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:32 am

dcs wrote:
It would be more accurate to say that the Church 'baptized' cultural elements that were capable of being understood in a Christian sense.

Easter eggs and chocolate bunnies?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:36 am

dcs wrote:
Which archaeological studies and which connections?

*smiles* Go to any college website, look up anything in the history and archaeological departments, you'll find many.

Or any local library.

Course, for a good example of how various cultural stories grow and evolve, try a simple game called 'rumor'.

Get about 50 people to sit in a row, have one person start a rumor on one end, have every 5th person add a bit, and see what the story sounds like at the end.
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:36 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Not just of conquered people but to more easily spread it to others. People are inherently more inclined to go with the familiar.

A lot of those elements where kept in outward appearance only as they associated them with their culture. Kind of like the fact that we drink a lot of coffee as opposed to tea. It stemmed from a political statement, but that doesn't mean that's why we drink it today.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:37 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Easter eggs and chocolate bunnies?

Excellent. Hopefully this discussion will take a turn . . . in the right direction!
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:41 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Go to any college website, look up anything in the history and archaeological departments, you'll find many.

Or any local library.

Course, for a good example of how various cultural stories grow and evolve, try a simple game called 'rumor'.

Get about 50 people to sit in a row, have one person start a rumor on one end, have every 5th person add a bit, and see what the story sounds like at the end.

Please don't ever go into law. You'd get thrown out for too much conjecture. That's not the same thing as documentation. If you're thinking of specific findings then you should mention them specifically.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:42 am

Orpheus wrote:
Anthropological evidence doesn't support it.

Im afriad you'll find it does. At least according to the anthropologists and historians I know and attended the classes therof. ^_^

Historians and anthropologists may not always agree on the interpretation of facts, but most of them do understand that cultures do mix and form new cultures.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:43 am

Orpheus wrote:
A lot of those elements where kept in outward appearance only as they associated them with their culture. Kind of like the fact that we drink a lot of coffee as opposed to tea. It stemmed from a political statement, but that doesn't mean that's why we drink it today.

True, and I wouldn't insinuate otherwise. The trappings are very real however.

Oh, and I thought we drank more coffee than tea because coffee tastes better.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:45 am

Orpheus wrote:
Please don't ever go into law. You'd get thrown out for too much conjecture. That's not the same thing as documentation. If you're thinking of specific findings then you should mention them specifically.

*chuckles* I said before, I dont have a memory for facts and specific names places and things. I just happen to recall, in general, concepts I have read over many many years.

My folks stuck a lot of books under my nose. They didnt lock me down with just one subject. And I grew up with a fair few historians, archaologists and the like, and I just tended to absorb the knowledge around me without always retaining the fine details.
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:50 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Im afriad you'll find it does. At least according to the anthropologists and historians I know and attended the classes therof. ^_^

Historians and anthropologists may not always agree on the interpretation of facts, but most of them do understand that cultures do mix and form new cultures.

Not the specific assertion that you're making in regards to Christianity and paganism it doesn't. Point to the specific findings. I'm not asking you to believe in the tenets of the faith.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:55 am

Orpheus wrote:
I'm just saying that the idea that the Christianity borrows heavily from paganism is a fallacy.

I've never seen anything to indicate it in practice but there are quite a few pagan trappings associated with christianity.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:56 am

It looks interesting and has to be better than that horrid Eragon movie was...
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:02 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I've never seen anything to indicate it in practice but there are quite a few pagan trappings associated with christianity.

Outward trappings yes: Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and whatnot, but not the core tenets. That's what we're talking about here.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:04 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
It looks interesting and has to be better than that horrid Eragon movie was...

I haven't seen Eragon, but I've heard that it sucked badly. I understand that the books are just as bad.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:06 am

Orpheus wrote:
I haven't seen Eragon, but I've heard that it sucked badly. I understand that the books are just as bad.

I swear. You guys are ruining it for me. I wanted it to be good.

Oh well.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:07 am

Eragon is garbage. But, I was prone to think so before watching it.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:09 am

Yeah, with everything I've heard about it I dropped it off my Blockbuster list.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:12 am

Orpheus wrote:
Outward trappings yes: Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and whatnot, but not the core tenets. That's what we're talking about here.

Are we?

Trappings are exactly what we are talking about here. ^_~
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ Have a ball.
As I said, everyone's got their own version of the core myth structure.

Jung and Campbell cover a fair bit of theory as well. And I just know thats going to go down well.

But in any event. I've said all that needs to be said on my end for this particular tangent.

I certainly intend to check out the book series mentioned in the original topic though.

I need to feed my reading addiction. ^_^
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:12 am

serleran wrote:
Eragon is garbage. But, I was prone to think so before watching it.

Finally we all agree.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:15 am

I got a Jackal for a Daemon.

As to the rest about the series I would have to read them to form an opinion. I am a Christian but I am not in agreement with most organized denomintations and of the mainstream version of the faith. I find mainstream Christianity to be dominated by legalism and popularity movements that tie more to money and image than to faith....Oops I found a soapbox.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:17 am

Orpheus wrote:
Outward trappings yes: Christmas trees, Easter bunnies and whatnot, but not the core tenets. That's what we're talking about here.

Trappings are symbolic and convey alot of meaning. Considering that the converts clung to them enough and brought them with them, you don't think that any of their ideology went with as well and was absorbed?