Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 pm

daddystabz wrote:
Miasmal worms product?

What's that?

Time to send daddystabz to the Troll product and anvil pages!!
Current products:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/products/index.html

In development:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/anvil/index.html

Lots of great stuff available to enhance our game and more to come!!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:08 am

Quote:
The M&T 2 will be $5.00 higher in price and have the errata and new poison tables in it.

No, M&T 2 is a whole different product. You mean the 2nd printing of M&T 1.

Greg Ellis · Post by **Greg Ellis** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:08 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Hey... wait a sec... I did say 'skill level' not just level!
Since there are not 'skills' in C&C as such... a class skill goes up by 1 per level. Of course, that still doesn't take in consideration Primes and Attribute Mods.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't notice that on my second or third read through.

And the answer is... yeah kinda.

And your question about the DC mirroring the LM's adjustments to ability rolls is also a yeah kinda. They perform the same sort of functions within the game systems.

One of the things that strikes me about LA vs. (for instance) 3E, is that the LA abilities are so much broader than the skills in other systems.

For instance, there's no "open locks" ability in LA. That function is so narrow that it's not represented explicitly.

If you've got Stealing Ability, that might work, or maybe Mechanics, which might have a chance. Or you maybe you could use a skill like Urbane to get yourself a locksmith, or a suitable skeleton key.

Similarly, climb, ride, search, jump, swim, survival, use rope, hide, and similar d20 skills are not called out separately at all, but are encompassed within much larger categories of experience like Ranging or Hunt or Savagery.

This can take away much of the minutia of checking each tiny obstacle, and allow the group to move more quickly through the "bigger picture" of the adventure.

In the "open locks" example above, your plan might be to break into a lady's house and steal her jewelry to fund your next expedition. Rather than plodding through whether you can approach the property unseen and unheard, and get the lock open somehow, and get into the house undetected, etc etc, the LM might just say "ok, roll against your Stealing Ability.. made it? Ok, you're back at the hideout with the jewels, now what?"

LA is very flexible, of course - it doesn't have to be played in broad sweeping strokes, but it can be.

The challenge for the players is to find (often creative) ways to use the abilities they've got to overcome whatever obstacles pop up. Often it's a case of convincing the LM that someone with your background and abilities might be capable of pulling off your cunning plan.

Sorry, I'm kind of droning on, aren't I...

Greg Ellis · Post by **Greg Ellis** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:25 am

daddystabz wrote:
I was lucky enough to pick up Lejendary Adventure Essentials at Origins for only $5!!!! What is missing from the essentials boxed set vs. the full version? I didn't know when I bought this boxed set that it was a condensed version of the game.

I don't think there's anything "missing" from the box (unless someone stole the dice?) but it doesn't have as much content as the three core books from the original printing.

These are/were full-sized RPG books, in the usual PHB/DMG/MM style trio, called:

The Lejendary Rules for All Players

Lejend Masters' Lore

Beasts of Lejend

The Trolls are planning to re-edit (I hope) re-layout and re-print these in the fairly near future (within a year or two?).

If you're interested, you can still buy the original books from Inner City Games Designs for about $25 each. They are holding all of the residual stock, AFAIK:
http://www.fuzzyheroes.com/

Not to fear, though, the Essentials box is a great intro and has lots of stuff in it to keep you entertained for quite a long time. And $5 is an absolutely ridiculous price.

"Upgrading" to the full version of the rules would give you a few extra playable races, a couple of additional types of extraordinary abilities ("schools of magic", if you like) such as Sorcery, Necrourgy, Geourgy and Psychogenics, a bunch of extra monsters, more extraordinary (magic) items, some extra info for the LM on how to conduct the game, etc.

But you've certainly got enough to get started already. Essentials is a good kit, and since it's not a level-based game, you won't "run out of levels" like you might with an old Basic D&D Boxed set.

Somebody mentioned Living the Lejend, and that's a good way to expand too. It adds a fair bit of extra material to Essentials, including Psychogenics and several creatures.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:37 am

C&C's SIEGE mechanic is somewhat similar in that when a skill check situation arises you simply look at what attribute that skill in question should be tied to and apply the appropriate DC while taking into account if the attribute is a prime one or secondary one on the character.

For example: Say that Jon the Assassin is trying to hide from a guard. Say the GM determines that hide should be associated with the attribute "WISDOM." Jon has a +3 modifier in his Wisdom stat. Wisdom was chosen by Jon as one of his primary stats so the DC of the check will be easier (12 for a primary vs. 18 for a secondary). The GM then assigns a base DC of 5 for the situational factor for the difficulty of this task. The total difficulty is thus 17. Jon would roll a d20 and add his +3 modifier from his wisdom stat and any other situational modifier that the GM might deem appropriate here. If his result is equal to or greater than the DC of 17 then he is successful. If it is lower then he is discovered by the guard.

This will allow me to not have to use a skill system at all in my games and makes things a bit faster and less comlicated. The trick now is to instinctively know what skill situations a player might find himself/herself in and what attribute they sohuld be tied to. There is a section in the C&C player guide that explains attributes rather well and goes a long way to helping in this matter.

Greg Ellis · Post by **Greg Ellis** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:44 am

Sorry dude, you lost me at "hiding is associated with wisdom".

I can see how it might be associated with cowardice, or stealth, or treachery, but wisdom? How so?

Just kidding. Mostly.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:47 am

The book talks about wisdom as being associated with applied knowledge. My reasoning is that knowledge of hiding would be the application of that applied knowledge for an assassin. In a similar vein I"m pretty sure the book uses a similar example for doing things like treating wounds based on this logic.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:20 am

I was just checking the book and forgot that caracters always get to add their character level to attribute checks, right? The only time they do not is when attempting a skill that is a normal ability of a different class.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:28 am

The only time they do not get level is when attempting something which is not a racial, class, "DM-approved" ability, or the situation explicitly states it such as some upcoming monsters and it saying "unmodified save." Oh, and spell resistance, and attack rolls (unless you're a fighter.)

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:31 am

Greg Ellis wrote:
One of the things that strikes me about LA vs. (for instance) 3E, is that the LA abilities are so much broader than the skills in other systems.

For instance, there's no "open locks" ability in LA. That function is so narrow that it's not represented explicitly.

If you've got Stealing Ability, that might work, or maybe Mechanics, which might have a chance. Or you maybe you could use a skill like Urbane to get yourself a locksmith, or a suitable skeleton key.

Similarly, climb, ride, search, jump, swim, survival, use rope, hide, and similar d20 skills are not called out separately at all, but are encompassed within much larger categories of experience like Ranging or Hunt or Savagery.

This can take away much of the minutia of checking each tiny obstacle, and allow the group to move more quickly through the "bigger picture" of the adventure.

I get what you're trying to say... and I tend to agree... especially when considering the D&D 3.5 skill system. Though no skills are itemized in C&C as a system, some specific ones do fall under various class archetypes. Thinking back, this may have been one of the strengths of the older secondary skill system -- it provided a background and as such an idea of what that character might have been skilled at without giving any specifics. However with a class/archetype system which C&C utilizes, you won't be able to get away from having certain skills detailed with various classes.

This reminds me very much of a conversation I was having with an old friend of mine last week. We were making comparisons between some of the mechanics of C&C and D&D 3.x and some of the recent changes to the skill system in Star Wars SAGA. D&D 3.x tries to do so much in so many different ways. We both came to the conclusion that a better option, mechanics-wise, would have been to allow for character development in a class-less system -- much like the one utilized in Shadowrun.

Anyway, LA is certainly solid enough and seems to follow a 'rules-lite' philosophy which is why I've taken to C&C so well. This thread has certainly helped me understand LA better as a system which can only spell certain doom for some of my players!

Just kidding!

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:18 am

Can someone please explain to me monster saving throws? I understand what the player guide is saying about monsters having lumped attributes for primary and secondary but how do I use this?

For ex: I looked up a creature in this book and under saves for this creature is lists M,P.

What does this mean and how do I use it?

Is M for mental and P for physical and if they are lumped do I add up all their primary mods together to get a cumulative mod to use for their save?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:20 am

It means every save is Prime, for that monster. M = Mental, or (Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma) if you were to look them up by "attribute" according to the PHB. P = Physical or everything else.

Obviously, monsters are superior to characters.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:11 am

so a creature with M,P as it's save means I lump or add all its attribute mods together for it's bonus for it's save? Or do I distinguish it by what kind of save it is, like with a player character?

Another words.....say I am doing an attack against a creature that the normal save would be a physical save. I look at the monster's saves and the player guide states it's saves as M, P. This means any save is prime so the monster gets a base challenge rating of 12 no matter if the save is tied to a mental or a physical save attribute. I then simply add the other modifier for player character level or potency of the subject of the attack or whatever to get an overall difficulty factor in which the creature has to match or beat to be successful with the save.

RIGHT?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:20 am

daddystabz wrote:
RIGHT?

You got it. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:11 am

Thanks!

You guys have been wonderful to answer all my questions!

What a great community C&C seems to have!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:20 am

We, and by we, I mean, of course, the royal me, gets worse. Just wait.

Welcome to the Crusade, if I haven't said it before. If I have, well, tough.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:54 am

I have another dilemna. I want to use the Warlords of the Accordlands campaign setting for my initial C&C campaign BUT I also want to use the Yggsburgh Castle Zagyg stuff too......

Most people seem to think that Yggsburgh should fit in Ehrde (sp?) or Greyhawk....what do you all suggest I do?

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:50 am

Greg Ellis wrote:
Sorry dude, you lost me at "hiding is associated with wisdom".

I can see how it might be associated with cowardice, or stealth, or treachery, but wisdom? How so?

Hah-hah! It depends what you are hiding from! This guy for example?

daddystabz wrote:
I have another dilemma. I want to use the Warlords of the Accordlands campaign setting for my initial C&C campaign BUT I also want to use the Yggsburgh Castle Zagyg stuff too......

Most people seem to think that Yggsburgh should fit in Ehrde (sp?) or Greyhawk....what do you all suggest I do?

Yggsburgh is such a small area that you can dump it in any campaign setting. I think it's something like 50 miles by 100 miles. There are some neighboring kingdoms, but they are just mentioned and not detailed. Leaving them out won't cause any problems. The feel of Yggsburch is definitely high medieval/Rennaissance though, so you it might not fit too well in, say, a Conan game.

That said, I recently purchased the book, and it comes with my highest recommendation.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:18 pm

Does every volume for Castle Zygag cost as much as the first one? The first one was pretty steep.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:28 pm

The next ones are supposed to be $30, I think. They are a rather different format too - a boxed set instead of a hardcover book.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:03 pm

Folios. I don't know. Boxed sets or folios? Mix of both?

Steep price?

Yeah, but I wait for the Trolls annual insanity party to buy stuff I find too steep in price. Plus they get to keep all my money, rather than share it with distributors.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:39 pm

The price may seem steep but it is more than worth it. Castle Zygag is quite possibly the best RPG setting book ever written.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:43 pm

concobar wrote:
The price may seem steep but it is more than worth it. Castle Zygag is quite possibly the best RPG setting book ever written.

I have seen people post that it was dry, uninspiring, and boring. My opinion was they only looked through the book rather than read it.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames