Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:03 am

I wonder if I will see the new second printing in my local stores anytime soon. Anyone know what the spine number on the Monsters and Treasures second edition should be?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:12 am

serleran wrote:
The CKG will be printed when Davis stops writing it. No estimation can be given.

I was pretty sure a GenCon release, like has been mentioned, was rather doubtful.
Maybe by Thanksgiving? Christmas?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:20 am

I imagine, for Troll simplicity, that M&T 2nd print will have the same number as the 1st print M&T, but with a "2" added. Same as the PHB. I have not seen a 3rd print PHB to see if it was changed to "3", but I imagine it was.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:31 am

serleran wrote:
I imagine, for Troll simplicity, that M&T 2nd print will have the same number as the 1st print M&T, but with a "2" added. Same as the PHB. I have not seen a 3rd print PHB to see if it was changed to "3", but I imagine it was.

The "3" was added to the 3rd print of the C&C PHB.

TLG80103

..................................................Omote

FPQ
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:38 am

daddystabz wrote:
I wonder if I will see the new second printing in my local stores anytime soon. Anyone know what the spine number on the Monsters and Treasures second edition should be?

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/8011.html *ahem*
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:04 am

So it used to be 8011, now it is 80112.
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:35 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/8011.html *ahem*

I'd rather buy it at one of my local stores than order it and have to pay shipping and handling.

hehe

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:40 am

daddystabz wrote:
I'd rather buy it at one of my local stores than order it and have to pay shipping and handling.

hehe

For sure. The Trolls and all of us in general support ordering from LFGS! Oddly, my LGS blows chunks, but the one in the mall is really excellent. So, I'm going to give them a try for some of the new product
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:28 am

Ok....one of the things I am looking at is customization and house rules for my campaign. I picked up all the books for the Warlords of the Accordlands setting while I was at Origins and I am thinking of using all of them for my initial Castles and Crusades campaign.

One of the things I may incorporate from that setting and D&D 3.5 in general are feats. I will more than likely use feats with a simpler, more fitting to C&C mechanic, than what D&D 3.5 uses to implement feats.

How many of you have implemented feats into your personal games and are there any resources available on the net for doing this?

Also, do any of you use skills at all or keep it more simple and have all checks tied to attributes, the way the SIEGE engine likes to handle it?

I ask about skills in particular because as I was reading through the Warlords of the Accordlands books and was looking at certain things I began to wonder how you would handle things like a listen check in C&C...would it be just by using your wisdom mod? What about an assassin in a disguise? Would this be handled as an opposed roll somehow?

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:34 am

I am also considering prestige classes from the Warlords of the Accordlands setting. Any opinions on prestige classes in Castles and Crusades and any rules out there on it that anyone has made?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:53 am

I have rules for feats, skills, and PrC's. That are on my old computer. I'll see about transferring them to this one tomorrow.

Essentially, with feats, they are earned in my game. Meaning I have them do SIEGE checks to perform feat like actions such as Cleave, Power Attack, and even extra attacks. Once they successfully rolled "X" number of times I award them the equivelant feat which means they no longer have to make a SIEGE check to see if they can even do such a maneuver. I recommend at least 20 successes.

Skills. Skills, in my experience, have never broken a game unless skills are also attached to attack values. Which they are not in 3E as well as C&C. So instead of limiting things, I decided to go the other direction with Skills. So in my games the classes have the FULL list of skills listed in the 3E PH. The only limitation I imposed is in Profession, Knowledge, Craft, and Perform. You can only have 1+INT bonus in each of those areas. Above what is the baseline for your class. Skill rank is equal to level + relevant attribute bonus or penalty.

PrC's. For this I have them started at level 10 at the earliest. This is because I fully expect, and intend, on going to 20th level or higher with my current home camapign. Now if you don't want to go that high then you can start earlier, even the level recommended in 3E.

As to how I adapted them. I pretty much was able to keep them as written, actually. Just the player, who is playing a Paladin, had to agree to an extra 50,000 XP's per level added to his XP requirements. Level 10 is when he started, and he gave up the level 12 power, as well as gave up improving his "Smite Evil" as his levels go up.

But he is getting what he wants, so is happy. The one I did for the Ranger would have had similiar XP requirements added on, but he decided it wasn't worth it, so the PrC remains unused.

Now if you don't want to have to add on XP requirements like that I imagine turing it into a 5 LVL PrC would work. They only get those 5 powers, or levels, every other level though, and forgo any class abilities they would have gained during those 10 levels.

Plus I also require that they finish what they start. So once they start the PrC they are committed until that character dies or retires.

Those are my house rules in a nutshell. If you want to talk about it via SKYPE sometime let me know. Like I am running a SKYPE game tomorrow at 6 PM PST if you want to talk to me at, say, 5:30 PM PST. Free program, free talking.
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:53 am

Awesome! I'd love to chat with you and look forward to those rules for skills and feats when you can get them to me.

Thanks!

Anyone else want to chime in too?

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:51 pm

If you could e-mail me those feat and skill rules to BSGStarbuck5150@yahoo.com I can check them out while at work.

Thanks!

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:40 pm

I use a FEAT list too, that is much like the 3rd edtion game. Generally speaking, like feats, and I like what they add to characters. Players just seem to love them so I fully incorporated a custom list into my C&C games. The rules are slightly different then the 3rd edtion versions, having much more of a C&C flavor to them.

If you are interested, feel free to e-mail me if you'd like them at: Omote076 [at] aol [dot] com

.............................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:08 pm

PrCs can be much more easily incorporated as "bonuses" for solid roleplaying, and by actually making characters seek them out, rather than the whole d20 concept of "I can pick my path from level 1 so I know at level 5 I'll be good enough to join the exclusive guild of assassins because they mandate you have 5 ranks in hide, improved naughtiness, and are a goblin born from a black pudding." That idea is backwards. So, what you do, instead, is you have the same cultures/societies/guilds/whatever but the PCs can't just join them... they have to prove themselves worthy, and what better way than to go on adventures! Once they get accepted, you can have "special training" that lets them get some benefits of the "prestige class" but they then have repercussions, as well, like, being tied to the guild and owing favors and the like, and things like "if you tell anyone, you die." You don't need new classes to use a PrC.... doing it the other way is not really prestigious.

"Skills" and "feats" work the same way in C&C -- they don't exist. Otherwise, they are based on a SIEGE check, if you want to use them at all. Several people have their own ways, but I alone did a breakdown of feats (well, pre-3.5 anyway seeing as I did not, and will not, buy anything 3.5) and class abilities as XP requirements. This would make them "earnable" in a different way, and also allows direct incorporation as class abilities, which is the other best way to resolve a "feat" or "skill." But, before you ask, I cannot share either.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:19 pm

Omote wrote:
I use a FEAT list too, that is much like the 3rd edtion game. Generally speaking, like feats, and I like what they add to characters. Players just seem to love them so I fully incorporated a custom list into my C&C games. The rules are slightly different then the 3rd edtion versions, having much more of a C&C flavor to them.

If you are interested, feel free to e-mail me if you'd like them at: Omote076 [at] aol [dot] com

.............................................Omote

FPQ

What does your sig quote mean and what god are you referring to?

Can you PLEASE e-mail me your feat method to BSGStarbuck5150 at yahoo (dot) com? Thanks! Did you make this feat method yourself?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:41 pm

The feat method I use is very similar to the 3rd edition rules. However, I have mondified the rules a bit so theat feats for my C&C games are more universal, and can be used by most classes. I've gotten rid of the bonus feats for certain classes, and give a feat selection to every class at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, etc.

As for my sig, it is a quote from one of my favorite bands, Kidney Thieves... a kind of "cyberpunk" sounding rock band.

.................................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:48 pm

What do you use for a skill system?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:26 pm

daddystabz wrote:
What do you use for a skill system?

In case this was a general inquiry

I use 'let me know what your character is trying to accomplish and I'll tell you what to roll." I ask players to provide some small background for their characters. It can be as simple as "I grew up in a seaport" or "I grew up in a forest town." From that the player and myself can work out a range of skills one can develop. Sailor and Woodscraft are two that spring to mind immediately.

If a person wants to develop a particular 'skill' for their character I let them spend XP to gain a particular + in that area.

Its not as defined as Gary's CZ skills system available in the downloads section, but it works for my freewheeling approach. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:00 pm

A lot of people seem to like the NWP system from AD&D 2e, which is easy to use, seeing as its already tied directly into an attribute mechanic, so there is very little to "convert." Others use a percentile system ripped from something like Palladium Fantasy or Rolemaster. In the end, I, personally, use "assumed abilities," "backgrounds," and "training."

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:36 pm

Just a further note for the new folks I actually do recommend trying the system 'as is' first, before tossing in a bunch of add ons. Approach rules additions cautiously, otherwise you might end up going right back to what you were trying to get away from in the first place. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:53 pm

For my games are a bit more skill focused then most (I imagine). I use a a skill system that is very close to 2E NWPs AND rolled secondary skills.

For 1st level PCs, they receive 4 skill selections (points). Every level of exp. the PC receives 1 further skill selection (point). My skills list is a combination of 2e and 3e skills, but resembles 2e skill categories and what not more. To use a skill, roll a seige check and add the number of times the skill was selected to the roll. For example, if a PC is using a Strength related skill (swimming) he waould make a seige check against 12/18 + attribute modifier + 1 (if the swimming skill was selected once).

Secondary skills are almost exactly right out of 1e. A simple seige check lets the PC perform the secondary skill.

Both of these systems have been used with much success.

......................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:03 pm

I would ideally like to leave skills completely out of the game and only use the SIEGE mechanic of rolling a d20+mods vs. a DC number basically (primes, etc.).

The catch is to know what skill situation would fit what attribute?

I am going to use the list in the book that describes each attribute and breaks down a lot of things that each can be used for.

I was thinking of what attribute would you use for a LISTEN check?

For PERCEPTION checks I think the book would say to use Wisdom.

As for a situation like where an assassin is trying to get past 2 guards by wearing a disguise....in most games this would be an opposed roll vs. the guards' perception or intelligence....but how should we handle this situation in C&C under the SIEGE/PRIME mechanics?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:11 pm

daddystabz wrote:
I would ideally like to leave skills completely out of the game and only use the SIEGE mechanic of rolling a d20+mods vs. a DC number basically (primes, etc.).

The catch is to know what skill situation would fit what attribute?

I am going to use the list in the book that describes each attribute and breaks down a lot of things that each can be used for.

I was thinking of what attribute would you use for a LISTEN check?

For PERCEPTION checks I think the book would say to use Wisdom.

As for a situation like where an assassin is trying to get past 2 guards by wearing a disguise....in most games this would be an opposed roll vs. the guards' perception or intelligence....but how should we handle this situation in C&C under the SIEGE/PRIME mechanics?

Have the HD/LVL of the guards be the modifier for the check, plus any other situational modifiers you think should be accounted for.

The "opposition" roll is use the HD of the opponent as the modifier to include the "opposition" in SIEGE checks. Hence saves versus spells are based off the level of the spellcaster, not the spell.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Greg Ellis · Post by **Greg Ellis** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:32 am

Spend some time looking over Lejendary Adventure, since you bought it and all.

Most of this multi-classing, complicated-skill-system nonsense just melts away...

No offense, but I see people struggle with this stuff in all the class-based systems. If you're so into skills, why not play a skill-based system for a change.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:47 am

daddystabz wrote:
I would ideally like to leave skills completely out of the game and only use the SIEGE mechanic

That's what I do. Personally, I see no need to graft a formal skill system onto C&C (obviously, others are free to hold different opinions on the matter). Early-on, I considered using Gary's secondary skill system (which is pretty cool, and based on the LA approach), but decided that the SIEGE engine was a better fit for a D&D-ish class-based system.

I agree with Greg, though -- if you really want skills, look no farther than Lejendary Adventure for a great system. Its skill-bundle approach works exceptionally well, IMO.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:47 am

Lejendary Adventure kind of loses me right at the beginning with the huge amount of defininitions it wants you to learn. Most of it is renaming concepts we are all familiar with already but trying to get us to stop thinking in the old rpg mode.

SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:27 pm

daddystabz wrote:
What do you use for a skill system?

So far, the book as written, with additional skills (swimming, etc) taken from the player's background.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:27 pm

daddystabz wrote:
Lejendary Adventure kind of loses me right at the beginning with the huge amount of defininitions it wants you to learn. Most of it is renaming concepts we are all familiar with already but trying to get us to stop thinking in the old rpg mode.

I had that same stumbling block. I like how in C&C, I already know all the rules!

Greg Ellis · Post by **Greg Ellis** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:53 pm

daddystabz wrote:
Lejendary Adventure kind of loses me right at the beginning with the huge amount of defininitions it wants you to learn. Most of it is renaming concepts we are all familiar with already but trying to get us to stop thinking in the old rpg mode.

No doubt it will take you a bit of time to wrap your head around.

The thing is, unlike almost every other game system out there, LA is NOT D&D. It's something completely different.

Give it some time. Let go of your preconcieved notions. Treat is as something new. Let go of the idea that you already know how the game works, because you don't. It's not like the other games you've played before. Once you get past that hump, I think you'll like it a lot.