Alright folks....maybe some bad news in the pipe

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Troll Lord
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Alright folks....maybe some bad news in the pipe

Post by Troll Lord »

The Players Handbook is out and and about so this does not affect this title, however it does affect M&T.

The cost of paper and shipping has increased a goodly amount. Though we have managed to curtail costs on small projects, we cannot on larger ones as these are out of our control.

The 19.95 price tag was tough to manage in the beginning but it is getting tougher now. We have worked the problem from a number but there aren't many solutions. We are presently looking at a price increase for the MT 2nd printing to 24.95.

TLG has long made it a habit of being open with the game's fans and listening to the input (sometimes actually doing it... ), so I thought I would run this price point increase possibility by you guys for comments and thoughts.

Steve
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Post by Inkpot »

Wow.

TLG continues to impress me with their "regular guy-ness". I really appreciate your openness and honesty with the fanbase, Steve! TLG sets a truly fine example for other companies to follow, IMHO.

Sadly, I can offer no alternatives to the price increase. At $24.95, the M&T will still be a damn sight cheaper than most RPG books of its' ilk out there. Hopefully, this price increase won't affect sales and C&C budding popularity.

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Post by Rhuvein »

Thanks Steve, appreciate the announcement.

You've guys have done a great job these past years with regard to pricing and holding the line on increases, but like everything else it is inevitable that they would rise.

For me, this will have no impact whatsoever. I'll continue to buy direct, FLGS and online depending on the product.

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Post by Treebore »

You've got to do what you have to do. If thats whats needed to keep TLG viable then do it.

I would prefer to keep the $20 price point, but my first priority is for TLG to stay in business and able to afford to publish new products.

The only thing I can suggest is keep the PDF price low. That might help those consumers who have to worry about the price more.
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Post by Troll Lord »

Our biggest concern is the marginal nature of the game. Its still only managed a toe hold in the market. Raising the price would probably impact those players toying around with whether to join or not to join the Crusade.

Now, we have NOT released the full PDF of the PH into the electronic market. We could do that as that is an option that allows us to offset cost.

Thanks for the comments. I'll be checking back throughout the evening and commenting. I'll make the decision tomorrow morn.

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Post by serleran »

Ouch. A raise in price generally means an expected raise in content, and with a simple release/addition of errata, that's unlikely to happen. This means general disappointment, and truly hurts those who would want to join, though, at a scant $25, it still is a cheaper book than many of the current monster tomes, and also offers treasures, and other things... so, if it can be marketed that way, as in, you're getting more bang for the buck, there's hope. Additional pdfs of products to give more free-form spending would be good, as the cash from them would be used to offset the inherent loss of keeping M&T at $20... but that's $5/book so you'd have to sell a lot of pdfs, and these at a decent amount. Lastly, the concern is the number printed... if they were printed in larger numbers, the price should drop, but there's the risk of the stock just sitting (which bugs me seeing as I'm co-author!) and it did take twice a slong to sell M&T out than it did the PHB.

Damn. We need to get those mini-modules finished. Sell them at 3-5$ each.

[Of course, maybe I shouldn't complain, seeing as how my earnings are sort of based on price... ;) So, umm, sell 'em for $150 each, if you can! Yeah!]

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Post by Buttmonkey »

Your tag-line scared the crap out of me! I can handle a $5 price increase. While this may scare off some new players at the margin, the fact that you only need to shell out $45 for the core rule books is still a great deal.
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Post by Eisenmann »

To be honest, I picked up C&C on a whim because of the low cost. But again, to be honest, an extra $5 per book wouldn't have scared me off either so it's kind of a murky catch-22 thing.

I'm also a business kind of guy, so, ya gotta make things right to stay afloat.

PS

I'm relieved that the bad news is just a price increase!

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Post by Orpheus »

Eisenmann wrote:
I'm relieved that the bad news is just a price increase!

Tell me about it! I'm in Houston on a business trip and decided I'd check the forums a little bit while I've got some time. Then I see this thread title. Funny, I actually brought my PHB and M&T with me to try and squeeze a little time in planning my Temple of Elemental Evil game I'm running next month. I was thinking, "Here I am about to hopefully snag some folks who have been out of gaming for a few years and I'm about to push a dead game." Luckily it's just a price increase. Your products are well worth it and it's still better then paying the prices that WoTC charges for their books. I think that I'll still be ahead between the price of the core books and the .pdf old-school modules I've been downloading.

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Post by moriarty777 »

Well, rising costs being what they are, a $5 increase on the book is something that really isn't so bad IMO when you consider other gaming publications with the same page count in soft cover format seem to start at $24.95 in many cases. Considering this is still a hardcover, and the page type is of the same caliber as what the 3rd print PHB is going for (which many I've talked to feel is an 'upgrade'), I'll gladly shell out the extra money on the book and many people I know would do the same.

As to new players coming to the game, though a lot of people may buy up a copy of both the PHB and M&T, there will still be many others that may buy just a copy of the PHB because someone else is running the game. Out of 10 friends I know and game with who are involved with C&C, only 3 of those got a copy of the M&T to run a game aside from just playing it. With the 3rd print run of the PHB staying at $19.95 I don't think the cost will impact on the decision of new players getting involved with the game.

As for PDF releases... I understand up to now the general concerns of releasing a full PDF edition of the PHB but I don't know if that will realistically offset the additional costs. Besides, I would rather have my favorite RPG company make a bit of money in order to grow, expand, and produce other kick-ass products. I say hike the cost of the hardcover the extra $5 but keep the M&T PDF version at $19.95

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Post by AGNKim »

A $5 increase with no reason behind it would have hurt more than a $7.50 increase with an explanation. Kudos to TLG for its down-to-earth mentality. Heck, not to many people that run a company can I call by his first name, huh Steve.

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Post by Rigon »

Inkpot wrote:
Wow.

TLG continues to impress me with their "regular guy-ness". I really appreciate your openness and honesty with the fanbase, Steve! TLG sets a truly fine example for other companies to follow, IMHO.

Sadly, I can offer no alternatives to the price increase. At $24.95, the M&T will still be a damn sight cheaper than most RPG books of its' ilk out there. Hopefully, this price increase won't affect sales and C&C budding popularity.

Ink

I swear, you people are in my head!!!

But a $5 increase in the price is of small concern to me. If I ever decide to get a 2nd print M&T, it will definately be worth the extra money.

R-
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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

I am certianly no expert in these things, and someone may have already mentioned this, but if new folks are interested in C&C, we can really plug the Free Quickstart. Get them hooked on the glory of C&C and they will be glad to pay $5.00 more for a quality product.

Heck, with the quickstart, kids can get into the game for free and ask their parents to buy them the other books as gifts later on.
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Post by Dyne »

I'm not sure if this has been done or mentioned, but you could release a PDF of M&T with the 2nd printing. It's been done by other companies before, and I'm sure it would make the price increase seem more acceptable to customers. I don't know if that would end up being too costly on your end, though.

Hope it all works out.

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Post by nwelte1 »

$25 does not scare me away as a customer. However, what will happen to those that preordered and already paid for the M&T 2nd ed? Do we still get the original price? If not, I assume we need to give you authorization to re-charge our credit cards.....?

Even at $25 I consider this product a bargain. I judge this in light of the fact that my wife who was scared away by the complexity and rule heavy 3.5 actually enjoyed our first C&C game with me CKing for the first time ever. The game is so simple that even two rookies could not mess up the rules to bad (though we did disregard encumbrance all together).

However, I must note that if this price increase will become a new standard price for all core books, I as a customer would expect better editing in all future releases.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

But they charge $30 + a book. ^_~`
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Post by serleran »

Not to mention having no care for, or loyalty toward, their fans and those who would buy their products. They also prefer electronic format, apparently. :)

Heh, which reminds me... I hope the Trolls never consider a PoD service.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

You guys still have my support. At least you told us why you were raising the price unlike other companies.
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Post by Omote »

The $5.00 increase isn't that big of a deal. Even with a $25.00 price tag, TLG is still lower cost for it's core book then most other RPG companies. No worries here. I don't think the brick and mortar stores will be affected that much.

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Post by Greg Ellis »

gideon_thorne wrote:
But they charge $30 + a book. ^_~`

$30?

No, that's only for the core books from 2003.

Sticker price for anything recent from WOTC seems to be 34.95 to 39.95. Unless it's just a book full of recycled giberish like "Heroes of Quicksand" or "The Complete Idiot" or whatever, in which case it might be $29.95.

I think $25 is fine for future hardcovers, if that's what you've got to do. Sub-$20 was a great attention-getter, but you need to clear costs, right?

The original LA books were $39.95 and those were softcovers. And it was 1999. So $25 doesn't seem too scary, really.

PDF's aren't interesting to me at all, unless they come free when I buy the book.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

nwelte1 wrote:
$25 does not scare me away as a customer. However, what will happen to those that preordered and already paid for the M&T 2nd ed? Do we still get the original price? If not, I assume we need to give you authorization to re-charge our credit cards.....?

You still get the original price.
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Post by Maliki »

I don't think the price increase is that big of a deal, you have to do what you have to do, giving the reasons behind the increase is a big plus.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

Still seems reasonably priced.
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Post by Takeyabue »

As a member of a group just in the process of moving to Castles and Crusades I must admit that I am disappointed at the increase in price. While it will not keep me from buying a copy and advising others to do so as well, it will make editing and quality control much more important. No one expects you to hold back the tide of increasing prices which are far beyond control. Any person picking up the game for the first time can expect to find a well editing and tight document for his or her money however.

My personal opinion is that your content is far above your average run of the mill rpg product, but your editing seems to falter at times and initial product releases seem rushed at times. Acknowledge the necessity of the increase, but at the same time work on issues you can better control by tightening the editing and layout of the higher priced material.

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Post by Rhuvein »

nwelte1 wrote:
$25 does not scare me away as a customer. However, what will happen to those that preordered and already paid for the M&T 2nd ed? Do we still get the original price? If not, I assume we need to give you authorization to re-charge our credit cards.....?

Heh, no worries. No reputable company would even think of doing this, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal to try and come back and add additional funds.

Anyway, the Trolls are the most honest company I've ever dealt with. If they made a mistake on pricing, they honor the lower price. And they try to make things right or correct a bad situation, even if it's not their fault.

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Post by SavageRobby »

I'm in the group that isn't thrilled by the price increase, but I'll still buy the M&T (and future hardbacks, like the CKG) even with a price increase.

I would like to see PDF options available at some point. I know there is concern about piracy (and lets not have that discussion here), but I also know some RPG companies are very successful with PDFs (such as PegInc), and some of the littler shops (at least for accessories like tiles and terrain) are purely PDF-based.

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Post by nwelte1 »

Rhuvein wrote:
Heh, no worries. No reputable company would even think of doing this, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal to try and come back and add additional funds.

Anyway, the Trolls are the most honest company I've ever dealt with. If they made a mistake on pricing, they honor the lower price. And they try to make things right or correct a bad situation, even if it's not their fault.

Wasn't questioning their integrity. Just wanted to know if I need to call Ark. again so that my book is not delayed. Would have had no problem coughing up another $5.00 for this product.

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Post by Tank »

Are there any games out there where a hardcover core book costs less than $25? I can't think of one.

$20 for a hardcover was ridiculously cheap, and we got a little spoiled. To someone just picking up the hobby, $25 is still much less than buying a WoTC book for $40.

And for those of us looking to save a few bucks, the price will still be pretty low on Amazon.

If this is a rock-and-a-hard-place situation, at least the hard place isn't too bad.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

nwelte1 wrote:
Wasn't questioning their integrity. Just wanted to know if I need to call Ark. again so that my book is not delayed. Would have had no problem coughing up another $5.00 for this product.

See my last comment above. Those who pre-ordered will not have their price go up.
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Post by Treebore »

Lets also remember the Trolls won't get all of that $5.00 unless you order straight from them. If you buy through "normal channels" the Trolls only see maybe $1.60 of it.

So they have to raise it $5.00 just to increase their profit margin by that little bit.
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