things that I'd do if I were CEO and president of TLG

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:06 pm

and as much as you try and joke and covertly belittle my points through your postings, this is a tried and true methodology in a very great many fields. it is possible to distill VERY complex methodologies and concepts through a combination of usage patterns (the 'rules' if you were) and usage examples (the 'how-to's). Corner cases notwithstanding, 80% of all scenario's can be simply covered and the rest can be much easier abstracted through the examples given.

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:09 pm

And you feel the section in the PHB on using the SIEGE Engine doesn't cover enough? What more does it need? Should there be 15 pages? 20? A whole book (and by that I mean more than 25 pages) on what is already covered? Seriously, how many more times does it take to tell someone the same thing before they understand "ohhhh, yeah! It works that way!" I realize some might take more, some less... but really, what is your "desired amount of coverage?" I'm confused because I consider the matter closed... but, I'm narrow-minded and stupid.

Oh, and I'm not being argumentative, really. I just don't see what more can be said about it. More examples? More "situations" where the CK resolves with a SIEGE check? Are there other areas where more explanation is needed?

The only thing I'd be worried about is it turning into some sort of canonical "law." Like that Strength check example where a Strength check is used rather than the rule for military press, and thereby makes the MP rule useless (I hate that example... heh.) Anyway... can you show me an example of your examples?

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:13 pm

Omote wrote:
After Castkle Zagyg come out, we'll all be wearing gold diapers.

.........................................Omote

FPQ

What does that mean?

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:21 pm

not stupid, but narrow minded... hmm, let me think on that one
No, I do not think there should be an entire book on the siege mechanic - if you go up to my initial post, I think I articulated pretty well that there does to be a 'rethink' on the way role playing games should be presented to new players.

I'm not suggesting my ideas were great (or even good), but there were ideas - something that others seem to be unwilling to provide - great at tearing down, not so great at contributing.

if we take software as just one example of complex systems, there are generally 3-legs involved in the learning process. There are the 'man' pages - or online help - these discuss the options and features of the software and of the function that you are seeking help on. it's a basic, bare bones clinical description of what the function does. In roleplaying parlance, this is the (or should be the) rules manual

Then there are the how-to's. detailed use cases on how to set things up, how to solve common problems with the software tool, and how to plug the options together to solve the problem. in good documented software packages the ratio of how-to's to help pages are around 3:1 to 4:1. again in role playing terms, perhaps less than 1% of the core rules/manual actually covers this aspect. for more indepth discussion on these themes and topics, you either have to buy other role playing games or supplements for other role playing systems to fill this void. this is bad IMO.

the final leg is training. if you are lucky, you pay for an expert to come in and show you how it works. you get to see these use cases in action and how it's solved - in role playing terms, this is joining a game and playing a game.

now, don't fixate on how using software as an example is wrong - again, it's only an example to illustrate a point.

there are important gaps (and this again is not a TLG problem, but an industry as a whole problem) in how the game is presented to new players, and I think it's because for many game designers, they are locked into a mind-set that was established over 30 years ago as to the way a game should be created and marketed?

Just imagine what the car industry would look like today if they insisted that the way cars produced and the features in them 30 years ago are the only way cars can be done today..

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:34 pm

I think I see the problem between our arguments. For me, the rules tell you how to use them. Roleplaying is an option, technically. You're still playing the game even if all you say is "my character attacks" or "I'll use my nature lore class ability to see if that plant is poisonous." "Roleplaying" typically comes through experience, watching others, or being actively involved in some sort of thing such as that. The early books (like some of the Basic sets) would have an "example of play" which would show sort of how the game played, and how a player could reasonably be expected to "act." That was good, I think, because it gave the most basic of ideas... it didn't just say "this is a game with no board, no script, your imagination, and some dice." So, to that end, I can agree that something can be done... what it is, exactly, I'm not so sure. But, that could be a start.

Is that more along the lines of your "how to?" I'm trying to be crystal on the argument...

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:47 pm

yes, yes yes a thousand times yes.
now, part 2 of my point, the rhetorical point, is if we agree that "kids" today "think" different than the kids of yesteryear, then shouldn't the way a roleplaying game - that game of your imagination which most agree is in serious jeopardy - be presented to those kids today be 'modernized' or at least adapted to reflect the changing times???

don't throw out the concepts of the game which I think is awesome - but repackage it in some sort of way that resonates better with the youth today.

if that means (again, only as an example because my mind is limited and cannot think of other examples other than this one) greatly expanding the to quote you:

""example of play" which would show sort of how the game played, and how a player could reasonably be expected to "act." That was good, I think, because it gave the most basic of ideas... it didn't just say "this is a game with no board, no script, your imagination, and some dice.""

to say 50% of the space devoted to role playing games - it might be a way to suck in those new players who may have a proclivity towards this hobby if it wasn't

a) so damn intimidating with as Steve says - 700+ pages of rules

b) so subsumed by the noise and glamour of other entertainment pulls they face

c) so friggen complex

(that doesn't mean 50% of 128 pages, but maybe 128 pages of 256??? - as in, maybe a second book???)

I don't have the answers either, but I have to imagine that the literally thousands of man years of experience encapsulated within the personages who frequent this board, who HAVE played with new players, who HAVE seen new players drop out and have heard their reasoning, who DO run games and try to teach others, we must be able to have ideas to make sure it's not a dying hobby???

that, ultimately, was the point of this thread

Cheers,

J.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:04 pm

A quote from Richard Garriot on Massive online games

"If you look at the vast majority of MMOs that has come out since Ultima Online and Everquest, you can look at the features and they are almost exactly the same. Even though the graphics have got better and the interface is much slicker, fundamentally the gameplay is unchanged. Worse yet, there are many things that have become standard that I look at and even though they are powerful enough to encourage the behavior of people obsessed with playing these games, I don't think they are the right way of building the future."

so who in the RP industry is doing this kind of self-introspection in general?

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:16 pm

Quote:
so who in the RP industry is doing this kind of self-introspection in general?

I would say every game company that wants to survive does that, and TLG certainly did when they decided to create and release C&C. No one wants to be the mimic, except, maybe WotC since they can out-produce and "officialize" to the largest mass of buyers, those people who look at third party material and say "not good enough because its not from the 'inventors.'" Just look at the plethora of OGL games that have sprang up recently... they are the result of this trend, in my opinion. Well, that and a desire to not be destroyed when 4e comes out next year.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:52 pm

jman5000 wrote:
now, part 2 of my point, the rhetorical point, is if we agree that "kids" today "think" different than the kids of yesteryear, then shouldn't the way a roleplaying game - that game of your imagination which most agree is in serious jeopardy - be presented to those kids today be 'modernized' or at least adapted to reflect the changing times??? a game with no board, no script, your imagination, and some dice.""

Herein is where I differ from most of my peers. I think a 10 year kid thinks the same today as he did in 1975, 1675, 1275, 775 all the way to the beginning. Kids are kids, they like things to be fun and fun fast. They don't want to study to have to play. They play video games now because they are immediately engaging....unlike most RPGs, which are immediately boring to read.

I think whoever said it above is right, we have to show people how fun these games are, get them at the table and get them playing. See how quick it is and how fast they are killing something and looting it. Then use role plyaing to show them how you can alter the game to your style.

Lots of conventions.....cause we have to unlearn them from what they know already.

Steve
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:04 pm

not so sure Steve.. this is WAAAY off topic, but an amazing clip on how fast technology is moving today vs even 10 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbI-363A2Q

and version 2 of the same - just stated in a slightly different way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMcfrLYDm2

kids today are different, because they are simply BOMBARDED with things that weren't even invented when we were kids...

they may be 'wired' the same, but they are certainly perceiving the world and all that's in it quite different than we ever did, or could imagine it did.

Cheers,

J.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:24 pm

jman5000 wrote:
kids today are different, because they are simply BOMBARDED with things that weren't even invented when we were kids...

they may be 'wired' the same, but they are certainly perceiving the world and all that's in it quite different than we ever did, or could imagine it did.

Cheers,

J.

Except for those of us who grew up watching Star Trek, or read Heinlien (a man ahead of his time for sure) or were taught to scoff at the word 'impossible'.

Sure, there is a lot of new 'shiney' around, but I perceive a distinct dumbing down in general, honestly.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:49 pm

jman5000 wrote:
kids today are different, because they are simply BOMBARDED with things that weren't even invented when we were kids...

they may be 'wired' the same, but they are certainly perceiving the world and all that's in it quite different than we ever did, or could imagine it did.

HAHAHAAH What is this? The top 25% of people in China with the highest IQs is greater than the total population of North America. That is a classic example of goobldy goop. It makes you think Chinese are smarter...because the next statement, there are more honor students in China than students in NA is utterly unrelated to the first statement. Whats the average IQ in China? Its sort of like the comment that China's economy is growing faster than the US at an scary rate. Sure it is. They started as an agrarian society in the 1950s, industrializing in the 1950s through to today. Of course their growth is faster. When I grow from 5 feet to 5 feet 2 inches, its not nearly as much when my child grows from 1 foot to 3 feet.

All these statistics are just numbers with no context. Compare them to the changing world from 1910 to 1920...from wagons to cars...from trains to planes. THOSE were HUGE shifts as it changed the face of the world in a few short years. Sure the internet is doing that to, but to assume that your grandfather didn't have to come to grips with a rapidly shifting world is a bit over the top. They did have to face a rapidly changing world. Suddenly what took three months via mail, took seconds via the phone line between in England and US in 190whatever.

Things are not changing nearly as much as we would like to think. The human brain, especially younger human brains are able to absorb MOUNTAINS of information and adapt to change quickly...they are able to adapt.

But no matter which way you cut that rug, kids like to have fun. Whether in some poor West African village where Taylor's men chop their hands off ,or in England in 1900 or in the US in 2007, they want to have fun. They don't want to be bored.

Reading can be fun, reading rules rarely is. Reading instructions is almost NEVER fun.

To bring youngsters in, you have to think like youngsters. I just spent 8 hours reading social studies and algebra. Do I want to come home and read more books or do I want to come home and start playing!

Repackage C&C....think like a kid....i know I do, or at least my wife tells me I think like a 5 year old...haha or is that ACT like a 5 year old.

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:57 pm

I think it depends on which market you're shooting for... the smoke-boys with the under-roos to the armpits on skateboards, or the Peters with the gaggle of models? There are a lot of "kids," and each one doesn't want the other to think they're the same. Toyota learned that. That's why they invented the Scion.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:10 pm

serleran wrote:
I think it depends on which market you're shooting for... the smoke-boys with the under-roos to the armpits on skateboards, or the Peters with the gaggle of models? There are a lot of "kids," and each one doesn't want the other to think they're the same. Toyota learned that. That's why they invented the Scion.

Ask any of the employees of TSR if they marketed only to a select group of kids? I'll bet I know the answer....

Kids are kids. We need to market to all kids. We need to figure out how to show the skate boarders how cool C&C is, and the pencil in the pocket kids how cool C&C is. The milk commercials tailor their ads for each group they market to, we have to do the same.

This is what made TSR successful. The game was in and of itself good, but it sold well because they advertised it often and everywhere.

I am always STUNNED by the number of my friends in their 30s and 40s who DON't play any games, video or otherwise, who are well placed employment wise in industries OUTSIDE of the tech field, but who, for at least a few months played D&D back in the early 80s and 70s. "Hey I played that once, back in the 9th grade." That's because it didn't have a stigma then and it was cheap, and available outside of hobby shops (sadly, hobby shops, by their nature chase away a certain number of potential customers who do not want to feel inadequate whilst asking about games....sort of like me or you going to one of those shops where they sell remote control cars, we don't know what the *#&* they ar talking about, but it looks cool. We don't ask, cause they will look at us like idiots...same principle here.

We're all elites in our own field. Outside of that, we're idiots.
Okay, that just cracked me up.

I played alot of videos in the arcade, ALOT, when I was 14 or 15 or so. ALOT. But I played AD&D too, ALOT.

Video games are not our enemies. If anything they are our friends and we need to develop a way to co-op ads or development with these companies in order to tap into their market. No easy task that.

If we had the cash, you would see an advertising campaign that rivaled milks from TLG. You should see the one Davis drew, from Marvel and DC to Maxim and beyond.

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:14 pm

Ahh, the ever-elusive "all market." I'm not going to say that's a bad idea, since I think its not. What C&C needs, then, is a virus. Seriously... we need something that will spread like peanut over a banana. Even if you don't like it, you know of it. Hell, some will want it just because others think its crap... hmm, where's our little chubby Jedi guy? Damnit.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:19 pm

serleran wrote:
Ahh, the ever-elusive "all market." I'm not going to say that's a bad idea, since I think its not. What C&C needs, then, is a virus. Seriously... we need something that will spread like peanut over a banana. Even if you don't like it, you know of it. Hell, some will want it just because others think its crap... hmm, where's our little chubby Jedi guy? Damnit.

I'm not sure how elusive it is. Its easy to tap if you have the bank. Walmart, the US Army, all the sodas companies, car companies....they all market EVERYWHERE. I read somewhere that Coke spends half its budget on advertising? Is that right? Regardless, its a huge amount.

TLG devotes less than 5% of its revenue to advertising. For any company that is SHAMEFUL.

The game is good, its simple and works well. We want a bigger market share whoever the *#^@ is CEO of TLG better get his act together and put forward a marketing plan!

err Steve..>CEO of TLG
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:26 pm

I could tell you how much GM spends, in rough estimates, and it is an ungodly number / percentage, but they are also battling a lingering image problem and face incredibly stiff competition... so, if we assume the analogy holds to TLG and, oh, let's say WotC... then there's some direct parallels. First, is word of mouth which is typically easy enough: cons, demos, the Society, message boards, and the like. Free RPG Day probably helped a bit with that as well. Then there's traditional advertising, like in magazines of a related nature, but those, for the most part, have just been eaten (by the competition no less) but there are still options (White Dwarf still around?)

Oh well, I'm sure you don't need me to say what I think since I'm sure you've got something cooking... cons are a great way, but we need more... ummm, consistent demos?

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:26 pm

Last year Coke spent 2.5 billion dollars on marketing.

Steve
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:41 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
Last year Coke spent 2.5 billion dollars on marketing.

Steve

http://maddox.xmission.com/ This guy spends ZERO on advertizing and gets more hits than Coke.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:43 pm

serleran wrote:
I could tell you how much GM spends, in rough estimates, and it is an ungodly number / percentage, but they are also battling a lingering image problem and face incredibly stiff competition... so, if we assume the analogy holds to TLG and, oh, let's say WotC... then there's some direct parallels. First, is word of mouth which is typically easy enough: cons, demos, the Society, message boards, and the like. Free RPG Day probably helped a bit with that as well. Then there's traditional advertising, like in magazines of a related nature, but those, for the most part, have just been eaten (by the competition no less) but there are still options (White Dwarf still around?)

Oh well, I'm sure you don't need me to say what I think since I'm sure you've got something cooking... cons are a great way, but we need more... ummm, consistent demos?

That's what we do need Robert. People reminding us of things we've forgotten. The SOCIETY for instance. I have some ideas, I need to get on it. That organization is akin to Coke's teen cards or whatever the put out for teenagers. but also, you all brainstorming both inspires me and gives me new ideas. The difference now between 30-40 years ago is the amount of cheap advertising available.

We gots ideas...soon, we hope soon.
Steve
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:56 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
Last year Coke spent 2.5 billion dollars on marketing.

Steve

That's astounding.

This got me thinking wondernig how much is actually spent on the main product Coca-cola as opposed to all the other myriad versions of Coke and their other beverages.

Coca-cola/Coke is so well known and has a goodly market share, you wouldn't think they'd have to concentrate that much on that main product, but who knows.

I just tried to get more info on their site about how many beverage products they have and I must say ~ it's one of the worse websites, I've ever seen!
But who cares, right. The website ain't gonna sell the product, but yours sure does and it's a durn good one too.

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:00 pm

Word of mouth is still the best advertising in the world. Even for Coke. In their case its a bit more literal, but anyhow. To make this sort of game work, its a show don't tell, sort of deal. That means the bastion of support needs to get out into the local game shops, libraries, schools, book stores and whatnot and arrange demo's. The more people who play it and have fun, the more people buy it.
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:10 pm

kind of need a 3-pronged (or more) methodology.

people need to be made aware of this form of hobby. if they don't know it exists, they won't want to play

people need to think it's cool - because even us geeks don't want to be reminded in public life that we're geeks
people need to see how much fun it can be.

I can see demo's and con's and "traditional" RPG "marketing" hitting point 3, but not sure if the other points are getting hit - except for D&D, which has the clout (and name recognition) to hit on point 1...

point 2 is the killer IMO.

Cheers,

J.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:18 pm

jman5000 wrote:
kind of need a 3-pronged (or more) methodology.

people need to be made aware of this form of hobby. if they don't know it exists, they won't want to play

people need to think it's cool - because even us geeks don't want to be reminded in public life that we're geeks
people need to see how much fun it can be.

I can see demo's and con's and "traditional" RPG "marketing" hitting point 3, but not sure if the other points are getting hit - except for D&D, which has the clout (and name recognition) to hit on point 1...

point 2 is the killer IMO.

Cheers,

J.

This I agree with!!! How to make the game a not-for-geeks type game. This impression of the RPGs did not come about until the late 80s, and it stuck. Why? Elitism is my guess. The game became more and more refined and the entry level kept getting higher and driving out casual interest players. This spiraled out of control eventually, until there is only us 12 left.
But awareness, cool factor and fun. That's it!!

We've got a few ideas that this discussion has made me think about and I'll contact my tech main man by email this evening for some pointers.

Note: Coke has had one of the longest most successful marketing campaigns, spending more per capita even in the 19th century than any other company in the world. They have tapped into American Popular culture countlessly and successfully. They have always advertised tremendously.

me I'm a Dr. Pepper man!

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:29 pm

Mmmm Dr. Pepper... mmmm.

Steve, we should so start writing an alternate version of C&C: Chicks and Culprits.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:36 pm

To make it non-geeky, keep the artwork as is.

Black n' white 'n gritty.

D20 artwork is often colored almost in child-like styles (Hasbro toys) and it's embarrasing to carry the stuff around.

When I see C&C work, I think wow, this reminds me of Savage Sword of Conan or early D&D which wasn't afraid to show womanly curves -like the M&T dryad or nixie.

My wife plays C&C and enjoys the artwork as well, because we're adults.

And kids want to play a grown up game...

A small point I know, but I can recall many a time I covered the artwork on a d20 book in publc because it looked so 'pre-school'.

Black 'n white artwork has a certain sophistication to it.

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:50 am

*Taps his watch and consults his calendar*

"Back to work before you Bowbe's get a boot in the backsides!"

Wait... Sorry must be channeling a bit of a berserker rage. Oooh cold beer. Yum, yes yes Back to work.

Miriad of comments but I'll keep it brief (for me).

Agree with Jman. Kids ARE exposed to a lot more media than ever before coupled with a high sugar, high fat diet and a lack of exercise (of brain or body).

But... Steve is right. Those figures and things are all gobbledy g**k. My day job is as an educator. 9 and 1/2 months out of the year my vocation is helping young people tap a somewhat stifled imagination. That said, the imagination is still in there somewhere, and it is DYING to express itself and yearning for something more.

In many cases, that "more" could very well be role playing. To say kids do not desire/would prefer to play video games is missing the bigger picture and the deepest darkest secret about "todays kids".

I should charge money for this secret. I really should. I should set up seminars about "how to get kids interested in RPGs...school... sports or anything other than sitting on their rapidly inflating asses. But you guys. I'll give it to you for free because I'm feeling generous.

For all the crap that gets tossed Treebore's way on various forums for his passion, the man has the answer.

Ready for it?

Kids just want someone to pay attention to them. JK Rowling got that. Love or hate her books and the merchandising avalanche that comes with all things Potter, she tapped into something that has gotten more kids to crack open a book than any amount of governmental threats of "No Child Left Behind". She wrote a series of books about a lonely kid, with a stifled imagination who had a whole new world open for him. It was a world of darkness and danger and fraught with peril, but by Bowbe it also had wonder, enchantment and people who CARED about him, spent time with him and payed attention to him.

Gamers can sit and lament the loss of new blood, or they can recruit kids in their own family. Eventually that brings in other peoples kids, and sure, after some trepidation, some bible beating(s) and possibly some casual calm coaxing of curious or cautious parent types, you suddenly have a few cool kids who play too. Especially if your kids are cool already.

Sure my mom bitched about money I used to spend on D&D books and miniatures. She would still if my gaming habit weren't currently "self supporting". What she never bitched about was the fact that she knew were I was, and where all my friends were. In my basement or another friends kitchen, playing Dungeons and Dragons, and not out running the streets in my ghetto ass neighborhood. When I had friends whose parents split up, it was important for one of the parents that they had their kid involved in something escapist to help keep their mind off the real world pressures and keep them out of trouble. In some cases Dungeons and Dragons in my basement probably saved some of these guys' lives. I kid you not.

Now I'm a grown man, and my wife gripes at me about the hours that I stay up late writing RPG books, but she understands and knows that if she wants to play on Thursday, I need to get my writing done earlier in the week. I also play with my daughter and refuse to ignore her. I stop everything when she asks me a question. No matter how annoyed I may be or how busy. I buy her the plastic miniatures. I let her re-arrange my terrain and "build castles". When she wants to tell me a story, i sit and listen to it and ask guided questions like "so what happened then?" On game night I let her roll attack dice for my "bad guys' as she calls them.

Our favorite game? Pretend.

Alot of times when we get beefing on games/rules/markets/strategies and sales ##'s we forget that most sacred element of Role Playing Games.

Play. We forget that gaming is our excuse to be 2-5 years old and "Play Pretend".

So Get Back to work you Dirty Bowbe's! I got some pretending (er... Writing) to do.

Case

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:55 am

P.S.

If I were CEO of TLG, I'd pay that Bowbe guy WAY more money

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:09 am

great post bowbe.... thanks for taking the time to share it.

and to treebore... in some respects you are somebody I look up to, because you take the time to play with your kids (not that anybody else doesn't around here, but you make it very vocal and unashamedly part of who you are...) it inspires me to want to play with my kids when they are old enough.

Cheers,

J.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:18 am

Bowbe wrote:
P.S.

If I were CEO of TLG, I'd pay that Bowbe guy WAY more money

Agree!
_________________
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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth