things that I'd do if I were CEO and president of TLG

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:55 am

Hi Jman.

Great thread for sure.

Interesting thoughts about the 3 book mindset/paradigm. I agree with your point but wonder about the uneducated masses as it were. So many peeps coming from 3E and/or other gaming systems. We've all seen the posts. So many of these folks cannot fathom a game without the 3 core books.

So if C&C did just 2 books (with the CK info in the PH) or a different version of the 3 books (with a CK guide or role players guide) - would those folks be able to "get it"?

I suppose some small percentage (the intelligent ones) will understand, but the masses and mindless (some ENworld peeps come to mind - no offense to y'all and me who are members ~ cause we get it) - won't be able to construe the intent of the product shift/paradigm.

_________________
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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:56 am

Quote:
And, I would argue that the best selling ideas are always the original ones...

not going to get into a huge marketing debate here, because that isn't an area i'm expert in, however, traditionally, that is not the case.

Sure, there is first mover advantage, but you have to spend gobs of money educating your market, teaching them that they have a need in which only your product can fulfill. being the 2nd or 3rd on scene has huge advantages because the marketplace has already been educated and now, you can invest those funds on marketing your product and trumping the first mover competition.

Also. being first means you get reversed engineered. your product gets torn apart and enhanced. The Japanese did this with near flawless execution in the 80's and early 90's... They literally wiped North America's asses not by inventing new things but by simply taking what you did invent and making it better.

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 am

Quote:
The Japanese did this with near flawless execution in the 80's and early 90's

And I could argue this was not because the product was better, per se, but more efficiently produced, with more standard parts, making them easier to repair because one did not have to deal with several specialists... its called branding, I believe. When you can out-produce, for cheaper, and make them more reliable... you will sell more. It also didn't hurt, and still doesn't, that there is some rather major manipulation of currency and import rules on the part of said country (according to some people, that is -- my opinion is not disclosed in this counter-argument; I espouse it simply because I know of it.) Likening this is putting d20 (WotC, the obvious market juggernaut with the ability to out-produce anyone book-wise) against, oh, let's say... Carnival Goblin (never heard of them? No surprise.)

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:05 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Hi Jman.

Great thread for sure.

Interesting thoughts about the 3 book mindset/paradigm. I agree with your point but wonder about the uneducated masses as it were. So many peeps coming from 3E and/or other gaming systems. We've all seen the posts. So many of these folks cannot fathom a game without the 3 core books.

thanks for the feedback. this has been a great conversation IMO.

honestly, I'm not interested in stealing market share from 3rd edition players. I made a point above talking about robbing peter to pay paul. the hobby of role playing is stagnant and getting smaller, if C&C were only ever concerned with grabbing existing players playing other role playing games, that's a long term recipe for death.

also, the dribs and drabs of new players joining the ranks of the role playing hobby isn't enough - evidenced by the shrinking market year over year. [tangent] when talking about world populations and replacement populations, you need to have slightly higher than 2 kids per couple to have a neutral population, higher to actually grow a population [/tangent]

What does this mean for roleplaying, having 1 new kid join a group isn't enough - because the ratio of lost players (those who quit) to those who join isn't at equilibrium yet. (assuming again based on what I see and read). for role playing to get healthy once again, you need gobs of new people, people who've never played a single role playing game before, making the decision to buy a book, read it, understand it, get enthused by it, advocate it to his friends (who've also never role played before) and sitting the bunch of them down and actually playing the game - this is a very hard thing to do in light of all the other pulls they have these days - like World of Warcraft or tv or whatnot.

my main argument is that to do this, the way C&C is presented is not conducive to getting new players because its

a) hard to learn (in it's current form - it assumes prior knowledge of role playing in general)

b) very weak on teaching new people how to play and how to run, and what role playing means

c) does not help the group become proficient and show them how much sweet fun this can be...

Cheers,

J.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:13 am

The Japanese was a very easy example...

ok, closer to home

tell me 1 thing that either Microsoft or Apple actually innovated on, invented. their respective empires are based and predicated on buying the innovation or outright stealing it.

yet they rule the roost and Xerox Parc is a footnote in the history books.

ok, enough of this
Cheers,

J.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:22 am

jman5000 wrote:
The Japanese was a very easy example...

ok, closer to home

tell me 1 thing that either Microsoft or Apple actually innovated on, invented. their respective empires are based and predicated on buying the innovation or outright stealing it.

yet they rule the roost and Xerox Parc is a footnote in the history books.

ok, enough of this
Cheers,

J.

Hehe, I'll say this. Many of the computer peeps/companies did indeed borrow/advance ideas from their predecessors BUT the DARK MASTER is microsoft.

They are the evil masters of theft and reverse/current engineering and CASH based marketing.

Can you believe that those muthaf*ckers are taking a Billion dollar hit on XBOX????

[Sorry, but please don't mention those hell spawned undead bastards in front of me - unless you love debate!!! LOL]

GRRRR!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:57 am

oh god, I'm on a rampage tonight. sorry.

here's a thought experiment - I'm not a scientist, so I'm sure there are so many logic holes in what's about to come, that it'd make someone who does use rigour every day wince.

starting state:

2 different groups of 5 13 year olds

- they will never have played a table top role playing games before

- they have been pre-screened to weed out those that would never play a table top game

take a single group of these kids, and place them in a room for a weekend, starting on Friday. have a table and chairs, and on the table have the Phb, the M&T, paper, pencils, and dice, then let them at it. On sunday morning, open up an adjoining room which has a tv and a nintindo wii or playstation or whatever. Come in at 5:00pm on Sunday night and observe what they are playing

take the second group of kids, place them in the same room however, have 3.5 edition (core books only), paper, dice, battle map and mini's on the table. Same thing happens on Sunday and observe what is happening at 5

note: I use battle mat only for the second example because it's explicitly required to play, it's only an option in C&C

repeat 100 times for both games.

in the first example, my guess that somewhere between 2-5% of those tested would still be role playing on sunday. in the second example, somewhere between 12-15% would be.

The questions then:

1) why would C&C fair so much lower?

2) what would it take to get the #'s close to 50% between role playing and playing video games

3) why did they decide to abandon the game, what reasons would they give.

ok, so a stupid example... but then again... who's got a better one? I'd love to hear it! (honestly)

Cheers,

J.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:58 am

Ok... the focus of the debate here seems to me that, at best, C&C is a double-edged blade. On the one side, it seems to re-capture the essence of 'old-school' gaming. This appeals to the older gamers or experienced gamers that are looking for something a bit more streamlined and simple. At the same time, it perhaps emulates it too well that there is little support for someone coming to it for the first time without some guidance.

It is possible that the Basic Set being talked about will have a more in depth introduction and genuinely be geared to someone without this prior gaming experience. I'm hoping it pulls it off. However, is that enough? Is that part of the issue? I mean... is there a better way to differentiate the product from other ones?

Hmm... I have an idea for a product concept though I'm not sure on how feasible it is.

Think of it as a Deluxe Basic Set. In this set, you have things like the basic rulebook for the CK as well as a number smaller booklets for the players... These smaller booklets would be Quick Rules on steroids. Maybe differentiate the booklets as the Fighter's booklet, Rogue's booklet, Cleric's booklet, etc... Maybe 2 sets of dice (one for the players to share and one for the CK) with CK Screen and introductory adventure.

Basically, this set would be 'complete' on its own for a group to start. A different booklet/character type for each player that plays. A bit more detailed than picking a game token but this way, each player is playing a different character in a game. The players can better learn how various classes can complement each other and the importance of a balanced party. The scenario could be written to really take players step by step though an introduction (the start of an adventure) to understand various concepts before diving into the meat of the adventure.

I dunno... just something off the top of my head. However, the bottom line is that a new group can get started all at the same time with everything they truly need in one box. In the box... PDF copies on CD of some of the material can also be supplied with maybe a couple of extras. But this strikes me as something that someone new can come to and perhaps get some friends to try out more readily.

Once they better understand the mechanics and stuff and if they like it, they would potentially move on to picking up copies of the PHB and M&T if they chose to.

What do you guys think?

Moriarty the Red
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:14 am

Not trying to bash anybody's comments at all, but I can't fathom how the PHB, as is, is not a book about how to play the game? There are plenty of examples on how mechanics work and how a session is played.

To me, that is more information then I ever had to start the hobby of fantasy role playing. The PHB doesn't tell you what is good roleplaying, it simply goes over how to do it. As TLG Steve has said, the CKG will go over in some detail the act of roleplaying. He hit the nail on the head with this one, I think it's up to the CK on how to teach others to role play within a game. But, that doesn't mean that the PHB failed in it's purpose.

Am I totally missing the point here?

...........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:28 am

Quote:
take the second group of kids, place them in the same room however, have 3.5 edition (core books only), paper, dice, battle map and mini's on the table. Same thing happens on Sunday and observe what is happening at 5

If you got them to read the books, they might have actually started to play by then.

Your set up is wholly unfair, on many levels.

Something more accurate, perhaps, might be:

Get some kids and give them a baseball bat.

Give them a Wii.

See how it takes to see the Wii get destroyed by the baseball bat.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:36 am

First of all, in a senario such as that, would any kid want to dive into 200+ pages of small text to learn how to play the game? Seems to me that the C&C PHB is much less intimidating then many other FPRGs to get into, regardless of content.

..................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:53 am

Omote wrote:
First of all, in a senario such as that, would any kid want to dive into 200+ pages of small text to learn how to play the game? Seems to me that the C&C PHB is much less intimidating then many other FPRGs to get into, regardless of content.

..................................Omote

FPQ

diving into 200+ pages or 128 pages, they still must dive

[flame retardant suit now on]

look at the 3.5 edition phb. turn to any page between 150-155. look at all those pretty pictures illustrating examples of play.

sure, its complicated as hell, but anyone can look at those pictures and "get" what its all about... in the end, those kids might not be role playing, but they ARE hitting closer to the intent of what D&D is trying to achieve.

C&C is trying to work old school magic - which is awesome and they should and it's great, however, compared to the 2 (books), its going to be a much harder sell trying to get them to play 'old school' D&D with the instructions given.

don't get me wrong, I also think D&D gets it wrong, however, they get it less wrong. they saw what / how the market changed (had teh money and focus groups) and produced a product which would cater to that..

Cheers,

J.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:58 am

Your set up is wholly unfair, on many levels.

sure it is. ok, give me a more fair one. I really want to learn good focus group/test group methodologies as it pertains to attracting new players to the role playing hobby

Assumptions must stay. kids 13 years old, never table top role played before, must have a predisposition towards gaming.

must be a comparison between D&D and 3rd edition

must have modern entertainment options as well (becasue that is what we are competing against).

or tell me why those assumptions are wrong?

Cheers,

J.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:02 am

I totally understand where you are coming from Jman, I'm just not sure I agree with your opinion. Regardless of edition or game, the amount of charts, examples, and overall length would seem to be a deterrent from learning a FRPG.

To me, C&C seems to come off as softer, and easier to learn; less weighty to jump right in an go. It's possible I'm just not in the younger generations mentality. If it were me, in all seriousness, I'd rather pick up the slimmer, more easy FPRG book.

.............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:07 am

perhaps I'm looking at this problem in totally the wrong way... maybe C&C aught not be the "gateway drug" but rather the drug of choice you turn too once you're hooked.

per my anal examples above relating to marketing, perhaps C&C is better suited as a game for gamers, and it should focus on taking market share away from other games to build it's own following...

let others with deeper pockets work on getting the next generation of gamers hooked, and once hooked, then C&C should work to turn them to the dark side...

cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:10 am

Ok, I'll try.

5 groups of 7 each, all male (of course) and all 13. The options are C&C, d20, and World of Warcraft (but there is a caveat as seen below.)

They are arranged in a pentagon so each group can see what the other is doing.

Group one is given C&C and WoW.

Group two has d20 and WoW.

Group three has C&C and d20.

Group four has WoW only.

Group five has all options.

After 10 hours, the PCs (computers) are shut down ending WoW.

What do you think will happen on the 10:01:01thhour?

Group one will likely pick up C&C because it has nice pictures, reads easily, and is pretty simple to understand.

Group two will flip through d20, look at the pictures, maybe read some of it and get confused about how it all goes together. They will then likely argue about what the rules mean.

Group three has likely been reading both, but spent more time on C&C because it is easier to follow, and there are less complications. They can also look over and see the people playing it (group one) aren't at each other's throats unlike the possible group two.

Group four is in hysterics.

Group five is probably like group three, but most likely not doing anything except pissing about how they don't have WoW anymore.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:12 am

Does any FRPG game now-a-days really look to build a following from the ground up? Nope. Like C&C and a half million other games on the market, these companies rely totally on the customer base of another product.

Matter of fact, is it even profitable to market a game in any other way? I would say no.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:23 am

Quote:
Does any FRPG game now-a-days really look to build a following from the ground up? Nope. Like C&C and a half million other games on the market, these companies rely totally on the customer base of another product.

is that another role playing product, or another unrelated product alltogether?

but what does one do when

a) your market is shrinking

and

b) your market is aging (eventually leading back to a)

I just want to repeat this line for added emphasis

"Does any FRPG game now-a-days really look to build a following from the ground up? Nope."

perhaps that is the most telling reason why FRPG's are moribund?

don't know???

Cheers,

J.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:12 pm

The problem, as I see it, is that there are 400 options in a market where most groups can play 1 game at a time.

Unless you have some serious capital for advertising and sales promotions, differentiating a product in a glutted market to pick up newcomers is going to be like swimming up a waterfall in 3E - very difficult, but not impossible.

The reason D&D could do it was that there wasn't much else like it. There wasn't competition from video game consoles and PCs like there is today. What little competition existed was so abstract that a fair amount of imagination was required to play them anyway. Look at the early Ultima games for example - they were little more than pixels - a way to play D&D by oneself.

TSR had the money and could advertise: comic books, Saturday morning cartoons, Boys Life. They could reach new players, and had the advantage of a product that was relatively *new*.

We're dealing with an aging industry, here, and I'm not sure that in a technologically immersive age like this that Pen and Paper can get anything back that resembles the infusion of new blood it had back then.

If I had to guess, though, I'd say any game design that has it's own "Dummies" book might be going the wrong way when someone can pick up a fairly complicated video game and just start playing it, albeit badly. That's what save games are for.
_________________
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Tank · Post by **Tank** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:49 pm

Targetting kids is going to be real hard for C&C. I guarantee you that the number one criterion for which RPG a 13-year-old plays is what his friends play, so right of the bat WoTC has a huge advantage on us. If one kid in Serleran's group 2, 3, or 5 has played D&D, then's it's over. WoTC draws from kids playing Magic cards, their other games marketed to that age bracket, and with their big-time name recognition.

The Trolls have a niche market, and I bet you that their primary consumer is people who became dissatisfied with D&D 3.x and went looking for something else. It will not be until the Trolls can really capitalize on those people that they can start looking to expand their profile.

It's no different than WoD. To over-generalize a bit, their niche market is the "counter-culture" vampire crowd. They have to worry about maintaining and enlarging that consumer base before they can worry about getting kids to play RPG's.

If pen and paper RPG's die (or mostly die), it will be on the shoulders of the WoTC giant, and there's not much the little guys can do about it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:53 pm

Tank made me depressed now.

........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:06 pm

Man, I'm a really itching to get into this . . . .
In short, we didn't gear C&C to appeal to the old school crowd, WoTC is trying to appeal to younger gamers with their new website, advertising is much much more expensive comparatively than it was in the old days and the market is very crowded with games in general, not just RPGs.

Back to our 8-11 Gencon releases!!!

Steve
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:16 pm

If I had to guess, though, I'd say any game design that has it's own "Dummies" book might be going the wrong way when someone can pick up a fairly complicated video game and just start playing it, albeit badly. That's what save games are for.

I couldn't agree more...

wonder if I'm going about this all wrong... maybe C&C SHOULD be a game that focuses on poaching new gamers who are playing existing games. Let the others worry about being the gateway drug while C&C becomes the drug of choice once they are hooked. this is still a valid way to go (not optimal because you are relying on others getting new people to join the hobby for you), though I think C&C would still have to change the way it markets its product (no basic or starter sets)... Also, lets face it, us 'old schoolers' are a shrinking breed...going this route, you will have to sell C&C a different way than saying 'old school' feel - because for many of the new gamers, 2nd edition or 3rd edition is now 'old school' for them. they weren't even born when 1st edition reigned supreme.

before it gets totally lost, Moriarty777 had a GREAT post a page above this, with a wonderful idea... I'm going to steal unashamedly from it... Back to the original point of this thread, were I CEO and President, here is another alternative I'd do (hehe this is a fantasy game, so why not live in a fantasy world!!!)

Create a boxed set, call it's "Ultimate Edition" or "Turbo" or some other non-basic, non-starter, non-'easy' marketdroid name that would resonate with 13 -17 year olds. Within the boxed set would be the following booklets

- A players guide: the core rules of the game, how to play table top role playing, how to play as a team, ways to speed play, yadda yadda yadda, basically, a bunch of advice on being good players. EST 10-20 pages

- A booklet for each class, a spiffy front cover picture that really invokes each class, the class description from the PHB, level charts that go to level 3, different race/class options descriptions, different ways to play that class with different alignments (examples of what a C-E fighter would be like for example), different "feels" for different prime combinations, and ways that this class can help a party in combat and when adventuring in an urban, wilderness and dungeon settings.. Finally, the back of the cover would be the character sheet. the whole idea of this booklet is that it sits with the player, and contains all the information the player needs to play that character without having to reference any other source.. EST 5-7 pages per class (larger if a spell caster)

- A CK guide, the front cover would again have awesome art, the inside cover would have a condensed version of the CK Screen with relevent charts, the pages would cover how to dm, different types of players and how to engage them and motivate them, how to tell stories, record keep etc etc etc... it would also contain very basic examples on how to adjudicate the siege mechanic. Basically a very basic primer on how to CK this game, EST size = 10-20 pages

- 2 sets of cool dice, not 'old school dice with crayons' because that wont resonate with them, but flashy dice, or whatever..

- a sample adventure framework. this should be something like a completed map of a castle or a dungeon. a very quick introduction on how to get this group of players involved, keyed rooms - but the keying should only include a very vague description (large well furnished room, there is a monster and some magical treasure in here). EST size, 2-5 pages

- a condensed monster manual and treasure guide. this should only contain 20 or 25 archetype monsters that everyone would know about. trolls, orcs, skeletons, baby dragons, bears etc... EST size = 2-5 pages

- a 2-3 page advertisement brochure for all the other C&C products in the product line

but here's the kicker, and here's the fantasy.. I'd give these boxed sets out for free. somehow, someway, I'd communicate to every single FGS in north america that if a 13-17 year old walks in, is a new player and shows interest in role playing, give them a copy of this boxed set.

"hey kid, you wanna try this, you first hit is free, but remember who you got if from ok?"

ok... just read steve's post - this has gone from mild speculation to wide ranging discussions on the industry (in which I'm not qualified to speak ) to wild fantasy solutions... think we've pretty much killed this horse..

Thanks everyone for a good debate/constructive discussion. Though C&C wasn't specifically marketed for old school gamers, it feels it to me, possibly I'm corrupted because I hang out at this discussion form where only a very vocal minority speaks out - who tend to lean towards the old school crowd.

Though the marketing isn't geared towards old school gamers, I'd be very interested to see (I know it's hard, or doesn't exist, or proprietary) an actual breakdown of those who buy C&C - new gamers vs. old school ones... net net.. wonder if reality is matching with intent..

I suspect so, because I have no other data to contradict what Steve says.

Cheers,

J

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:19 pm

Omote wrote:
Tank made me depressed now.

Oh! Now I feel bad. But you wouldn't want it the other way around, would you? What if our forums were green with pictures of giant brains all over?!? Steve is right - I guess the softer way to say what I was trying to say is that WoTC is actively appealing to p*ete*n and early teen kids. By hook or by crook, the Trolls appeal lies with the older gamer - a gamer who has a bunch of pre-2001 TSR material that is suddenly instantly compatible, a gamer who knows and respects the work of Gary, a gamer who doesn't want his book to be filled with zepplin-riding savage halflings covered in tattoos.

I think the whole idea of a rules-lite system also appeals to a gamer who works all week, takes the kids to the pool on the weekend, and can't bear to have his wife make fun of him while he writes out a 2-page statblock for a single NPC.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:35 pm

ok, I'm lame and can't resist...

By hook or by crook, the Trolls appeal lies with the older gamer - a gamer who has a bunch of pre-2001 TSR material that is suddenly instantly compatible, a gamer who knows and respects the work of Gary, a gamer who doesn't want his book to be filled with zepplin-riding savage halflings covered in tattoos.

todays new gamers will become tomorrows old gamers.. if 25 years ago, we had a game filled with zepplin-riding savage halflings covered in tattoos, we wouldn't be seeing anything wrong with it... it's what you are used to and what you are exposed to. today's new gamers don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with that. At some certain inflection point in the not to distant future, every single new gamer coming to C&C will not have heard of Gary Gygax (except as a founding father - ala John Glenn and space flight - you know of him but what of it.. we now have the space shuttle), they will have no interest in pre-2001 materials, and actually, will not have even been born before 2001 (for my deafult 13 year old, that is only 7 years away.. can you believe it???)

I think that C&C should have a different focus that what you stipulated. rather than "the Trolls appeal lies with the older gamer" it should be the Trolls appeal lies with those gamers who want a faster less complex experience.

The danger though, which we've seen time and time again in different forums is that for many "simple" = worse. and there's the rub.

Cheers,

J.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:37 pm

I cannot wait for the CASTLES & CRUSADES TURBO-JAM EDITION to be released.

...........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:43 pm

ha!

you mock, but seriously, and sadly, you (and me) are not the market of the future... if "turbo-jam mega" is what will resonate with youth, then friggen call it "turbo-jam mega" to sell your product. it's only a title, if the game is good, they will keep coming back, no matter how lame (we think) it's name is.

cheers,

J.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:49 pm

jman5000 wrote:
wonder if I'm going about this all wrong... maybe C&C SHOULD be a game that focuses on poaching new gamers who are playing existing games. Let the others worry about being the gateway drug while C&C becomes the drug of choice once they are hooked.

I certainly will agree with you there - that describes my experience to a T.

jman5000 wrote:
Also, lets face it, us 'old schoolers' are a shrinking breed...going this route, you will have to sell C&C a different way than saying 'old school' feel - because for many of the new gamers, 2nd edition or 3rd edition is now 'old school' for them. they weren't even born when 1st edition reigned supreme.

Wait a minute! You guys don't think 2nd edition is old school? I was born in 1982, so I fit into the crowd that you are talking about, and I definitely feel like one of the youngest posters on the boards. I started playing D&D in 1991 with the Black Box, followed shortly by the Rules Cyclopedia, and heavily supplemented by 1st edition AD&D books I checked out of the library.

jman5000 wrote:
- 2 sets of cool dice, not 'old school dice with crayons' because that wont resonate with them, but flashy dice, or whatever..

I bought my first ever non-inked dice in 2006. I just think they are cool. The dice I remember are the solid orange d20 with black lettering, the yellow d12 with black lettering, the blue d8 with white lettering, the red d6 with white lettering, and the green d4 with white lettering. Everything you bought from TSR in the early nineties had that exact set of dice. (I guess I should say numbering instead of lettering.)

jman5000 wrote:
Though the marketing isn't geared towards old school gamers, I'd be very interested to see (I know it's hard, or doesn't exist, or proprietary) an actual breakdown of those who buy C&C - new gamers vs. old school ones... net net.. wonder if reality is matching with intent..

I guess there are a few new gamers playing C&C after all.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:50 pm

I do mock, in a way. This reminds me of and issue of Dragon Magazine during the first few months of the 3E days. The title on the cover of the mag was BIG and BOLD and said "Fighters Kick Ass." Seriously, this is when I knew that the D&D game had loved for so long changed forever, and my target demograhic was left in the dust.

I know what your saying Jman, and you are right. I just hope that this phase of the gaming industry can get over the POP-BANG type of game, Or at the very least somehow let the mature versions out our favorite games survive. I know that is a lot to wish for, but people like TLG are making strides to keep that type of gaming alive.

.....................................Omote

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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:00 pm

Omote,

the real secret, and magic if pulled off correctly, is to make an old school game 'feel' modern. Fashion does this all the time when they bring back styles... slightly tweaked but at it's core... it's the same style of yesteryear, just packaged differently (or modernly if you will).

C&C should never ever change the way it is as a system.. question is, how do you make it 'cool' while we snicker behind our hands laughing at the kids today and if they only knew they were playing the exact same style of game that their parents did...

that would be magic

Cheers,

J.