things that I'd do if I were CEO and president of TLG

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm

Your method, Jman, is a tried and true. However, probably an expensive proposition. Without getting further off track, TLG seems to me, to be a company of gamers who wants to make games THEY like, and hopefully fufill a niche where they can make a little profit at what they do.

.......................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:30 pm

wow, 7 pages for something that I was convinced was going to start a flame war...

groovy

cheers,

j.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:33 pm

Nah, we save those for Treebore's threads.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Well, hell, if you wanted a flame, you could've asked for it...

I am a pyro.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:41 pm

dude, I don't ask for the flames, they just seem to follow me, everywhere I go.

Cheers,

J.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:52 pm

I often wonder whether or not Jman's posts are as passionate they they come off sounding, or he is just trying to kick up a little high flame potential discussion
All the while leaning back and smiling at the chaos he has started.

...........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:01 pm

honestly??? a little of both.

sometimes you've got to burn a forest down to make it healthy again...

and I've got no problem getting in a tussle now and then... if it's a love fest all the time, there's no learning or growth...

but i do admit, conversations like this one, reasoned and level is much better
Cheers,

J

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

Did you just say "love fest?" Eww. I've seen some of these guys on this board...
..........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:20 pm

Where's Rhu when we need him? He's stacked!

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:07 pm

That's all that needs to be said about that.

.......................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:29 pm

serleran wrote:
Where's Rhu when we need him? He's stacked!

Well I was out shopping for a new dress and wig, and I come back and this thread is growing and growing like some weird ooze or pudding. I'm gonna have to spend an hour catching up with all these posts!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:36 pm

heres the quick summary.

jman: "blah blah blah blah"

everyone else: snore!!!

ok, you're caught up again

cheers,

J.

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:46 pm

Okay. I'm on a bit of clock right now (student is writing an assignment, have a couple minutes free in which to look at the forum), so I haven't been able to peruse this subject from the angle of all posts submitted. Nonetheless, I'm going to throw in my viewpoint(which may or may not bear relevance to the subject matter at hand).

My honest-to-God opinion is that, when you get down to where the ursine defecated in the buckwheat, you don't write or draw or do anything creative for anyone else - you do it for yourself. If someone happens to take a look and enjoy that work and be willing to exchange cash for it - hey, I'll go for that any day of the week and twice on Sunday. But your primary, ultimate goal is to entertain and divert the self - if that don't happen, nothing else matters.

Trying to appeal to a "niche" market or target specific demographics is a loser's game: you spend so much time analyzing charts and spreadsheets that the original concept ends up being buried in revisions for a phantom audience. My - again, considerably ill-informed - opinion is that Messers Chenault, Golden and Doyel never set out to hypnotize or beckon a specific group with this game; they created C&C for themselves, and have given us the liberty of offering the opportunity to join in the fun. This, I feel, is the reason that WotC is doomed to a fate not terribly much different from what happened to Decipher (CCG studio that released the ill-fated Star Trek and LotR RPGs) over the last couple years: burning out their player base with material that's been forced to conform to committee input, based on conclusions drawn from actuarial tables, and which ultimately ends up satisfying no one. Stephen King and Joanne Rowling never set out to market to a "target" audience with Carrie and Philosopher's Stone; they just put together the best g**dam story they could, and left it to others to decide whether or not to fall into the dream. The results speak for themselves.

You want to become a multi-millionaire? Find something you love and start with that. WotC is running out of gas; they're surviving on depth of resources and desperately casting about for the "next big thing". My money's on Troll Lord's survival: I'll stick with people who are doing something because it's fun any day of the week and...well, you get the picture.
Student's chewing on the ankles - gotta go. Thanks for letting me vent my spleen.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:04 pm

well said Telhawk!

I don't disagree, but I do think at some point, once you release your product of love, and fans pick it up, it morphs into something else - into a business.

I'm pretty sure you are bang on about the first book Joanne Rowling released. not so sure that holds true for her 7th. think the popularity and fan demands outgrew her 'love'.

So, why'd she write that 7th book?

as to the roots of C&C, I believe PART of the early history of C&C had something to do with TLG and EGG sitting down and discussing his castle greyhawk. he wanted (or was cajoled) into thinking about finally getting it going as a polished, finished product. LA as a game system just wasn't suited for it and so he wanted to have a current game system closer in feel to the way the castle was initially run... hence C&C.

obviously there's more to the story than that, but, without question, part of the reason why C&C came to be was for a totally business related reason - sell the original castle greyhawk with a game system catered to it.

Cheers,

J.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:05 am

This has been an extremely fun post to read. In short I don't really agree with the repackaged concept. I think that to attempt to compete with video games and other media . . . which is what the full color texts and high graphic books are doing . . . is a loosers game, because no matter which way you cut the cake, when you start the game you have to read. I bought Doom 3 and didn't spend 8 seconds are reading crap. I started shooting stuff immediately. I got so bored in the entry 'movie' that I kept trying to shoot the desk sergeant...wouldn't let me of course. Same concept at Transformers the movie. I took my young son to it the other day about the scene where they are at car lot...10 minutes after the battle in the desert?... my youngster shouts in frustration TRANSFORM ALREADY and fell back in his chair with an UG.

What's my point? The game has to be presented as FUN. And to do that to anyone younger than 20 you have to do it FAST!

(this is actually the subject of my article in Crusader 7)

C&C has to be easy to understand. It is.

C&C has to be easy to start. It is.

C&C has to get to the action quick. It CAN...depending on who is running the game.

If we do a book on teaching people how to role play we'll kill the game faster than transformers transform. People know how to roleplay. This is where I think all the big companies who DO advertise to youngsters lose the fight. You can make D&D look cool, but in the end its 700+ pages of rules, and a 10 year old's brain has to shut down his 10 year energized body and mind to study these concepts. And trust me when I tell you that most 10 year olds don't come home from 7 hours of school ready to read 700 pages of rules.

We have the vehicle, we have to find the manner to show it to the younger audience. We are working on that.

In coming release we aren't going to expound upon HOW to role play, but rather on how to USE role play as an expansion to your game.

C&C and LA for that matter have an angle that no video game or movie can. You can TAILOR the game to YOUR desires and you do that through role playing...just like you do when your playing cowboys and indians. Try to tailor WOW to your style of play!

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:09 am

Troll Lord wrote:
If we do a book on teaching people how to role play we'll kill the game faster than transformers transform.

Agreed.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

cool post Steve, thanks for chiming in...

Think (for me anyway), I'll leave the post to the man himself who IS the president and CEO (or whatever you trolls call yourself).

Can't say that I agree 100%, but then again, I'm not the one who's got his neck out where the metal meets the road... you do... and that's braver than I.

Cheers,

J.

Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:27 am

Quote:
C&C has to be easy to understand. It is.

I somehow feel that the books, the way they are written, asume a certain gaming experience.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:04 am

Having been through the playtesting of the system, having gone through the collector's edition box set and the first two printings of the PHB with a fine tooth comb and the help of many others, I have to disagree with the notion that the way the books are written assumes a person has gaming experience. The books DO assume that the reader is reasonably bright and actually has an imagination. Unfortunately, due to the existence of games like Evercrack and World of Warcraft, readers with imagination are slowly dying out. After all, when you have the visuals fed to you and don't have to exercise the gray matter, there's no need to imagine anything.

If I were the president of the company, I'd be doing my damndest to find ways to convince these kids with atrophied imaginations to actually USE them. Demonstrations are the way to go here. In fact, a demonstration can be done for the cost of photocopying, at most. In fact, on the website the Trolls have all the pieces of the demonstration puzzle together (except one).

1. The C&C Quickstart - Character generation, magic spells, equipment, and combat. There's even a scenario in there. Everything a player needs to play, and almost everything a CK needs to referee.

2. The free monster PDF - this gives reasonably low level critters for the CK to throw at the low level characters generated through the Quickstart rules.

3. The missing element - I mentioned this in another thread, but a quick and dirty treasure list would make for a complete demo kit. For coinage, a truncated chart will work wonders. For the magic items, a short list of low level magic items like +1 daggers or boots of elvenkind...things that low level adventurers might find would give the players a taste of the whole system.

I believe that very few people, regardless of age, will pass up free stuff. The person running the demo should have packs of demo material printed up to give out to the players at the end of the demo, namely the quickstart, the monster pdf, and the treasure pdf. Then these players can start playing (assuming of course they liked the game), and start demoing the game to others. It's called viral marketing, and it could be just what the doctor ordered. Or I could be out in left field here. The jury is still out on whether I'm out in left field or not, but I believe that by themselves, the books are not enough. We, as the ambassadors for Castles & Crusades, need to do our part.

P.S. I hope I made some sort of sense after an eight hour airplane flight and an additional four hours being up...lol.

[EDIT: Guess I didn't make total sense after all, given that airplane flight.]
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:42 pm

If I were in charge of Troll Lord Games, I'd declare war on the Lizards of the Hoax and invade them and if their puppet masters at Scamsbro tried to interfere, I'd send some ninjas to assassinate their leaders and throw them into disarray.

Once my army of angry Troll Minions had taken control, then would come the Show Trials and Public Executions! Nothing like a little conquest, massacre, and tyranny to rejuvenate the game industry, don't you think?

And then I'd declare the use of the word "paradigm" to be a tar-and-feathering offense.

Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:04 pm

Quote:
Unfortunately, due to the existence of games like Evercrack and World of Warcraft, readers with imagination are slowly dying out.

So very true...

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:40 pm

If I may, I think the fault lies with parents who use the computer, TV, and other 'mindless' mediums as a way to estrange their selfish selves from their children. Instead of planning events with them to groom imaginative thought, restricting time they spend in certain mediums and actually being parents, they enjoy the free babysitter that gets the kids kids out of thier hair so they don't have to be bothered by their responsibilities as parents.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:40 pm

This has certainly be a great thread to read... way cool.

A lot of good points... Steve's recent post made perfect sense. I can't wait to read that article he alluded to.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:15 pm

The alignment discussion was off-topic, so I split it into a new thread in the Rules forum.

Basically, if a thread exists for constructive feedback for Steve, Davis, etc., then I don't want them to have to sift through Ye Olde Alignmente Argumente to get what they are looking for.

_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:43 pm

If I were President and CEO of Troll Lord Games, my first order of business would be: add more cowbell.

--Jeff T.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:50 pm

Ghul wrote:
If I were President and CEO of Troll Lord Games, my first order of business would be: add more cowbell.

After Castkle Zagyg come out, we'll all be wearing gold diapers.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:39 pm

ps. this thread wasn't supposed to be a criticism of TLG.

wow, found this in part of my daily 'readings' and think it is VERY apropos for this discussion in hand.

"Coffee this morning was brewed by the best pot Ive ever owned. The coffee was fine, but the machine, a fairly new Braun, is fantastic because it has only one control: an On switch. Ah, simplicity, just what you need at 5 a.m.

Dan Wards entertaining little primer on the subject wont teach you anything about simplicity that you dont already know, but it may remind you of some ideas youve forgotten. One of these, probably the most important, is that simplicity requires lots of hard work, conscious, ruthless, and creative work. As Stephen Wolfram demonstrated (and demonstrated and demonstrated) in A New Kind of Science, complexity is the natural order of the universe. Left to themselves, even very simple systems will produce complexity. If you want simplicity, you have to fight for it.

It turns out, according to Ward, that any project will eventually encounter a fork in the road. A system always starts out simple hard to get more simple than a blank sheet of paper but then people start adding features to give it capability. After a while, its no longer obvious how to make the thing work, and even worse, interactions between the components begin to spawn unintended consequences. At some point, the fork in the road, the people working on the project have a choice to make: Add more structure in an attempt to control the behavior of the system, or start taking things out in order to make the system more predictable and easier to use. The first choice is the easiest, since it doesnt involve difficult decisions and trade-offs, but it turns a complex system into a complicated and often useless one. The second can turn a complex system into an elegant one."

so, we can see in here clear parallels to the way 3rd edition D&D morphed. I contend that TLG has begun the process of turning a complex system into an elegant one, but has not gone far enough. They are still stuck in the 'complexity' mindset that over 30 years of roleplaying has created. There are still a few barriers that need to be broken before this system, or any system can be made elegant. especially considering that 13 year old who doesn't have patience any longer and has never been immersed in the world of roleplaying

but that's just my opinion.

Cheers,

J.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:51 pm

Isn't elegance a bit subjective? Some people clamor for complexity, and find elegance in a such mechanics.

...............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:56 pm

I always thought simplicity didn't need a manual. That's it! If I were TLG, I'd stop producing anything.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:00 pm

the people who clamour for complexity should not be the people who design systems - because they are then designing systems for their own use and not for general consumption.

anyway, in the world of system design, simplicity is elegant when done correctly. role-playing rules are systems. we should all strive to making the "rules" simple, but more importantly, have a very good instruction manual.

anyone who's ever used instruction manuals know that only listing options and what they do, while it works, is aways less effective than having examples of usage to go with them.

Cheers,

J