So, I read through the C&C Quickstart rules, and...

[Mana Trance]

I'm thoroughly intrigued.

I'm also dead certain that one of my regular players will totally despise it. He's the type that rifles through any official material he can find to manipulate the rules into making him nigh unkillable, or at least so min-maxed that it's difficult to write adventures for the group including him.

So then. It'll be interesting to see if he'll opt in to playing C&C. Are the full rules as, ah, restrictive as the Quickstart? Fighters seem to be pretty well useless at higher levels unless they're fighting a mass of little guys.

[moriarty777]

Well, aside from the Combat Dominance ability (which I have tweaked), Fighters get an unrestricted second attack at 10th level. They are pretty much the only class that does get an extra attack... except maybe a high level unarmed monk.

The PHB has 13 classes as opposed to the base 4 in the Quickstart. What other questions (or concerns) did you have when looking through the QS Rules?

Moriarty the Red
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[gideon_thorne]

Mana Trance wrote:
I'm thoroughly intrigued.

I'm also dead certain that one of my regular players will totally despise it. He's the type that rifles through any official material he can find to manipulate the rules into making him nigh unkillable, or at least so min-maxed that it's difficult to write adventures for the group including him.

Cant be done in this system if one is playing by the core game.

Quote:
So then. It'll be interesting to see if he'll opt in to playing C&C. Are the full rules as, ah, restrictive as the Quickstart? Fighters seem to be pretty well useless at higher levels unless they're fighting a mass of little guys.

Restrictive how? The complete lack of set in stone abilities one 'must' chose gives a character range and scope only limited by the imagination of the player. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

The quickstart is much like a "starter" or "primer", there is a good bit more to the classes. The fighter is the big bad hitter and damage dealer. The only other class that really comes close is the Ranger when fighting their favored enemies.

If your intrigued with the QS go ahead and buy the PH and ask some more questions then.
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[Tank]

Mana Trance wrote:
I'm also dead certain that one of my regular players will totally despise itHe's the type that rifles through any official material he can find to manipulate the rules into making him nigh unkillable, or at least so min-maxed that it's difficult to write adventures for the group including him..

So then. It'll be interesting to see if he'll opt in to playing C&C. Are the full rules as, ah, restrictive as the Quickstart? Fighters seem to be pretty well useless at higher levels unless they're fighting a mass of little guys.

Hey, I've got that guy in my group too! The campaign starts on Tuesday, he's borrowing my PHB to read rules now, and so far he seems perfectly willing to go along. I will keep you updated on what he thinks of the game.

[Mana Trance]

moriarty: The QS states just above the equipment lists that there are starting gold values for each class following the blurb; however, there is no such table anywhere that I can find. How much gold does each class start with?

gideon: It's probably just because I have the QS instead of the full game, but there don't seem to be a whole lot of options for players when creating characters.

Treebore: I'll keep that in mind. I'm in the process of getting the PHB now.

Tank: Thanks, I'd love to hear how it goes!

[Tank]

Here's a link to the cnccheatsheet:
http://goreanmale.homestead.com/files/c ... tsheet.pdf

It includes all the races, 1st level info. for all the classes (including starting gold), all zero and first level spells, and equipment.

I like to have a couple of these handy when starting a new game - it really speeds things up if you only have one PHB. You have to be careful of a few typos, though, most notably it says that druids can wear any armor.

[jman5000]

gideon: It's probably just because I have the QS instead of the full game, but there don't seem to be a whole lot of options for players when creating characters.

that is because there are not a whole lot of options - by design. this is shared story telling, so the options come from your players who turn that "yet another str/dex/con prime" fighter into the dashing, headstrong antagonist who only thinks with his flail, and constantly writes cheques with his mouth that his ass can't cash...

the sheer beauty of the system IS in it's simplicity, for now, it's your imagination and how you play your characters which makes the differences... played well, that 100th str/con/dex fighter will never be like the previous 99

if you really think about it... coming from other editions (that rhyme with tree), they really are MUCH more restrictive than c&c, because they spell everything out for you, which homogenizes everything. C&C's operates under the Default Allow assumption, where the others run under the Default Deny

but then again, that's just me
Cheers,

J.

[Omote]

Very nicely put Jman.

..................................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Mana Trance wrote:
gideon: It's probably just because I have the QS instead of the full game, but there don't seem to be a whole lot of options for players when creating characters.

Erm. Thats rather the point mate. There aren't supposed to be a lot of options.
Like original Dungeons & Dragons this is a game of strict archtypes which depends more on the creativity of the player in developing a background and things the character knows and learns than any set abilities. The Siege engine check is for all those nebulous grey areas that are unrestricted by mechanics.
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Peter Bradley

[moriarty777]

Mana Trance wrote:
moriarty: The QS states just above the equipment lists that there are starting gold values for each class following the blurb; however, there is no such table anywhere that I can find. How much gold does each class start with?

Well, the link that Tank gave will certainly fill the gaps. It's been a while since I've seen that 'Cheat Sheet' and I had forgotten how good it was. It'll give you a glimpse at 1st level abilities of the classes not included in the Quickstart and also has a fuller equipment list.

For my campaign, I tend to simply give out and allow the starting equipment to be chosen as long as things are kept within reason.

Moriarty the Red
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Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[Omote]

An although this is some times looked down upon, there is no reason you couldn't add in some "character option" like skills, and/or feats to your games. I've done so because, demanding players warrented such additions to my C&C game.

Tweeked for C&C, these things have worked well, and given the players that player option security blanket.
............................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[jman5000]

yes, and ironically, the player wants to add super cool "Odin's fart" uber option, you as a ck don't have to do anything... it's handled already in the siege mechanic... player writes down "odin's fart" on his character sheet, and really, it changes NOTHING about the game, because had the "option" not been there, and during the course of the game he wanted to perform "odin's fart", he could have anyway.

let them write down every single option that they want, no big deal, but watch their crestfallen faces when playing with a real creative person who "gets" C&C. they will be playing a limited game based on their self imposed constraints while the creative player will not only be doing "odins fart" but every single other option he wants to as well... because he understands that anything is possible (within reason ala challenge levels assigned to that action).

[tangent]

conversations like this only serve to reinforce my assertions in another thread that some kind of dissertation in the form of "how to role play in the C&C world" is not only needed but required

[/tangent]

cheers,

J.

[Treebore]

Apaprently that is something very important to remember while looking at C&C.

Do you know why there is no "feat list" in C&C?

Because your character can try to do anything the CK is willing to allow with a SIEGE check. Even actions that mimic feats. If you keep that in mind while you read about using the SIEGE engine I think you'll see why, at least in my case, the SIEGE engine is so awesome.

Yeah, characters may be strict archetypes, but in C&C they can try to do anything the CK is willing to let be tried. Even meta magic type feats/actions.

So any character concept you come up with for 3E can all be done in C&C.

Skills are another big question for people coming to C&C from 3E and other skill heavy systems.

In the raw essence of the SIEGE system any character can have any "skill" the CK and the player agree upon, in addition to what is specifically mentioned in the class description. Its all handled by agreement and SIEGE checks.

So your character "concept" is not limited to a chain of feats or list of skills set in the book. Its limited to the CK and players agreed upon concepts and ideas of what can be done.

So remember these basic premises of C&C while you read through the PH.
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[serleran]

I thought they were those things not there because they simply weren't needed?

[edit]

Damn I was high when I wrote that originally. Sheesh!

[Omote]

Agreed. Feats and the like aren't really needed. You can feel free to go Treebore's excellent route of just SEIGING any feat like action, of go completely without them. Both ways, including C&C as is, makes for a damn fine game in itself.

I think that is part of the ellegant beauty of basic FRPGs. Add in what you need as the situation calls for. Or, simply leave those mechanics out. Either way your going to have a fun time playing.

...............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[moriarty777]

serleran wrote:
I thought they were those things not there because they simply weren't needed?
[edit]

Damn I was high when I wrote that originally. Sheesh!

Wow. That was kinda amusing.... but I've been able to get there without any special meds!
M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
I thought they were those things not there because they simply weren't needed?
[edit]

Damn I was high when I wrote that originally. Sheesh!

You know, I didn't "get" your post earlier. I am glad I abstained from responding until now.
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[serleran]

Its not much better the second time around, but it reads funny. So, I'm keeping it. Besides, its already been quoted... twice. Damnit.