What impact do you think 4e will have on C&C sales?

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Turanil
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What impact do you think 4e will have on C&C sales?

Post by Turanil »

If I see the 4e book under my nose someday, and if the art is as good as some people say, (so I guess no more dungeonpunk - I am repelled by dungeonunk art), well, I might flip through its pages in the LGS. I don't see myself buying it as I used so few of my d20/3.0 books, and practically nothing of my 3.5 books. Then, I expect another book flood with 4e, of course worse than with 3.5, as over the history of D&D each edition has seen even more rulebooks released. Myself, I am only excited at the prospect of the CKG that I will order blindly! However...

However, I may be well in the minority boat. Many people who felt tired of 3.5, kept coming take a look at C&C as an alternative, which was a good thing for the game. But now with 4e coming out, could it somewhat eclipse C&C? Will C&C sales go down as a result?

What do you think?
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Post by pactmaster »

4E will only encourage me to run more C&C. I am not even interested in the new edition of D&D, it seems poorly handled and too soon.

I have enough 1E art and art from other resources to keep me going with C&C.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

I think we'll see some peopel switching over. But after the new toy is released. I know i will look at 4e but possibly won't buy in. Too much money looks to be involved.
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Post by SavageRobby »

I think you'll see the same kind of phenomena that happened with 3x: big marketing push that will again focus the spotlight on D&D, and by extention RPGs. New people will start to play, old players ("lapsed" players) will start playing again (like me), and when they tire of rules bloat, power/video gaming in RPG form or Wizbro's antics, they'll start looking for alternatives.

Thats good for solid games like C&C, with a core audience of folks who can quietly and maturely point out of the benefits of the game, and attract new folks to try it.

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Post by serleran »

Initially, due to the announcement, sales might jump, and then, when the 4e is released, sales will fall, and may stay such for a little while... but, this is also when TLG needs to release the major components: CKG, CZ V2, and the like, to refocus those players who had bought stuff back toward C&C and say "oh, what's that; yeah, I have it.. hmm, maybe I'll give it a try." WotC has a virtually guaranteed an upswing in sales on their end (seriously, we are not their market) but those are not part of that "evolution" are likely to look for something else, or play nothing at all.

I'm curious to see what 4e offers, though I hold no high hope.

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Post by Treebore »

There is always a certain segment that does not move on to the next edition. With 3E I think that segement will be of decent size, so I think &C may see a substantial jump in popularity.
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Post by moriarty777 »

I agree with Serl... TLG certainly has the seize the moment and tighten their deadlines to release some of their key product before May 2008. The sooner, the better considering a couple of previews in December and the Quickstart shortly before May which WotC plans on releasing.

Sure, I'm certain will gain a few new players... those that may have been getting dissatisfied with the direction that WotC was going; a slightly fuller portfolio could really help TLG.

As for 4th Ed... It's mixed for me. In the end, I'll be interested in what it offer but I expect I'll have a better idea with the previews come December. I'll be able to see where they've mucked up races and classes.

Who knows... maybe there will be stuff I can lift from 4th to streamline 3.x d20 stuff.

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Post by Mike Frank »

I will almost certainly buy it and read it.

If it looks good I'll try a session.

If it's better, I'll play it. If it's not, I'll spend no more (time or money) on it.

Ultimately, I hope they make the perfect game and the popularity of pencil and paper RPGs soars once again. I wish them great success, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Post by Dagger »

When you are at the table a few things happen:

1. Role-Playing

2. Someone tries something with a probability for success (attacks, uses skill, etc...)

3. Someone rolls some dice to determine the outcome

As long as a game allows for those things to happen in a way that is smooth, repeatable, and makes sense, then it's a good game. I crack up at a lot of the discussion about which game/edition is better. When it comes down to it, you just want to role-play, meet challenges, and roll some dice.

I am a CK for C&C on Tuesdays and a player for AD&D on Fridays and there really isn't any difference between the games as far as play at the table. The players just roll what the DM/CK tells them to and the DM/CK tells them if they were succesful. In C&C the thief may be rolling a d20 while the AD&D thief is rolling a d% when attempting to pick a lock, but who cares?

C&C is cool because it keeps it simple. D&D 3.5 makes it too complicated to keep the simple paradigm of role-play, challenge, roll dice moving fast enough to have fun.

All that said, C&C/AD&D plays fast enough and provides a fun fantasy milieu. I can't fathom why I'd try something more complicated.

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Post by Tank »

I'm one of those people that jumped ship and started playing C&C after my dissatisfaction with D&D 3.x. As of now, I'm keeping an open mind towards fourth edition. If it's good, I'll buy a PHB. It if it's really good, I'll switch back to playing D&D. Of course, my definition of "really good" is synonymous with "going back to the basics," and that has a lot of overlap with what C&C has - which means that even if I stop playing C&C, I'll still be able to buy C&C products and use them with minimal conversion.

But let's be honest with ourselves here, will 4E go back to the basics? I highly doubt it.

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Post by Dristram »

dagger4192 wrote:
When you are at the table a few things happen:

1. Role-Playing

2. Someone tries something with a probability for success (attacks, uses skill, etc...)

3. Someone rolls some dice to determine the outcome

As long as a game allows for those things to happen in a way that is smooth, repeatable, and makes sense, then it's a good game. I crack up at a lot of the discussion about which game/edition is better. When it comes down to it, you just want to role-play, meet challenges, and roll some dice.
Well said! I'm in your camp. Roleplaying really doesn't change no matter what system is used. Roleplaying is roleplaying. You just find a system you like to use as a background to your game. But many current players have placed the mechanics to the fore which roleplaying to the back. It's sad to me.

I read somewhere on the Wizard's pages where something was stated that was like nails on a chalkboard for me. It was something like:

"The problem with 3e was that by 20th level, there wasn't much to differentiate different races from each other. At 1st level, the racial bonuses and penalties played a role, but by 20th level, +2/-2 here and there didn't make much difference between a dwarf fighter and a half-orc fighter. We've fixed that with 4th Ed."

I mean come on! What about ROLEPLAYING differences?? This is a roleplaying game, right? To me, I don't need game mechanics to differentiate my characters. But, for some reason, the focus on roleplaying is being lost in the dust. D&D is fastly becoming a small scale, scenario orientated, miniatures game. Or tabletop video game.

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Post by Telhawk »

D&D 4.0 will go back to the basics the same way that 3.x, and the whole miniatures experience, embraced "role" playing; i.e., not at all. The simplification of classes, rules, Feats and so forth has been brought in to for one reason and one reason only: so that Johnny Sixpack won't have to expend an entire Labor Day weekend in understanding the Byzantine labyrinth that 3.x has become over the last five-plus years. The push to a digital/miniatures-based format is, for me, proof positive that WotC has pretty much given up on the pen-and-paper crowd that make up C&C's core demographic. As with the role-playing aspect in the miniatures iteration, it's an afterthought: if people go in for it - hey, the more the merrier, but there won't be terribly much in the way of official support.

Making one's way over to someone's house, sitting down, conducting oneself in a civilized and amenable manner while rolling dice and taking pleasure in each other's company...all that stuff takes real work and effort. Far better - WotC has reasoned - to make this game something where you never have to leave the keyboard, and can dispense with all this socialization and manners bushwah. Of course, that also means no more mutually agreed-upon house rules or making a character's past, present or future a meaningful part of the game...but them's the breaks in making sure that the bottom line this quarter comes through in solid black instead of red.

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Post by ssfsx17 »

I'm taking the opportunity on other message boards to spread the good word about C&C in all of the D&D 4 threads.
C&C/D&D-related writings, Cortex Classic material, and other scraps: https://sites.google.com/site/x17rpgstuff/home

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Post by Treebore »

Telhawk wrote:
D&D 4.0 will go back to the basics the same way that 3.x, and the whole miniatures experience, embraced "role" playing; i.e., not at all. The simplification of classes, rules, Feats and so forth has been brought in to for one reason and one reason only: so that Johnny Sixpack won't have to expend an entire Labor Day weekend in understanding the Byzantine labyrinth that 3.x has become over the last five-plus years. The push to a digital/miniatures-based format is, for me, proof positive that WotC has pretty much given up on the pen-and-paper crowd that make up C&C's core demographic. As with the role-playing aspect in the miniatures iteration, it's an afterthought: if people go in for it - hey, the more the merrier, but there won't be terribly much in the way of official support.

Making one's way over to someone's house, sitting down, conducting oneself in a civilized and amenable manner while rolling dice and taking pleasure in each other's company...all that stuff takes real work and effort. Far better - WotC has reasoned - to make this game something where you never have to leave the keyboard, and can dispense with all this socialization and manners bushwah. Of course, that also means no more mutually agreed-upon house rules or making a character's past, present or future a meaningful part of the game...but them's the breaks in making sure that the bottom line this quarter comes through in solid black instead of red.

In my on line games using SKYPE I feel like I get the same socialization that I would get in any face to face. Plus I don't have to spend time or gas to go to a game.

I mean its so much the same as table top Rhuvein and I can't stop interupting the game to talk shop. Which we are committing ourselves to stop doing.
So I think on line gaming is actually on par with face to face, when you evalutate the pro's and con's of each.
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Post by Zudrak »

ssfsx17 wrote:
I'm taking the opportunity on other message boards to spread the good word about C&C in all of the D&D 4 threads.

Nice!

My view is this: OD&D, BECMI D&D, and OAD&D (1E) were all great games created by gamers to share a great game with the world at large.

2E was an attempt to fix some of the OAD&D game without the guiding hand of the game's creator.

Late 2E and onward resemble cash grabs to me in hindsight. Sure the original 3E books were $19.95, but they got you in to buy more, more, more!

It was "keeping up with the Joneses", only the Joneses live in Renton, Washington.
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Post by Telhawk »

You are correct, Treebore: I should have been more specific in the previous post. I wasn't writing of on-line RPing in general - which, of course, can be just as idiosyncratic and unique as any pen-and-paper version - but of WotC's 4.0 take on it. There's a huge difference, for me, between a group of people making a communal decision to engage in this sort of thing (and which I've been mighty tempted to do, considering that my brothers and I get together only once every couple weeks) and a corporate-sponsored event where a profit motive, not pure fun, is the final arbiter of whether things move forward or not. Of course, I have no direct experience with 4.0, and couldn't tell the difference between it and a hole in the ground right now, but I do know WotC, and am willing to bet that their on-line experience with 4.0 will be aimed at producing dollar signs, over and above all else.

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Post by Julian Grimm »

I hoping this motivates the Trolls to do the following:

* Tighten deadlines to get the products we've been waiting for. (CZ, CKG and A series, I'm looking at you)

* Get at least some more limited Licenses out with Companies like Necro and Goodman to produce more C&C stuff.

* Keep the website updated with support downloads for Modules (Maps especially), Fan material ( Like Judges Guilds Site) and some other goodies.

* Finally get moving on the C&C society.

* Keep interesting products for C&C coming with moderate wait time between annoucement and availability.
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Post by Dyne »

A lot of people are really not happy about this 4e decision, and I've already pointed a few this way. So, I think this situation could be good for C&C, if it's handled correctly. Getting some of the other 3rd-party companies to switch over to C&C would be a big winner.

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Post by Treebore »

Julian Grimm wrote:
I hoping this motivates the Trolls to do the following:

* Tighten deadlines to get the products we've been waiting for. (CZ, CKG and A series, I'm looking at you)

* Get at least some more limited Licenses out with Companies like Necro and Goodman to produce more C&C stuff.

* Keep the website updated with support downloads for Modules (Maps especially), Fan material ( Like Judges Guilds Site) and some other goodies.

* Finally get moving on the C&C society.

* Keep interesting products for C&C coming with moderate wait time between annoucement and availability.

Hopefully their push for GenCon this year taught them they can do some of this. The only "obstacle" I can think of still slowing them down is cash flow.
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Post by 3rd Eye »

I can't really think of any reason that 4E would have any particular impact on C&C a very small effect, perhaps, but not much. The majority of people who play C&C have rejected the "mainstream" already, so they aren't inclined to go chasing after some Lizard droppings just because the Lizards say those droppings won't stink as much as their last pile of droppings.

And however many fence-sitters there may be who tip toward the Lizards, there will surely be just as many others (maybe even more) who choose to tip away, too.

I'm far more interested in knowing whether 4E will continue to offer the current "Open Game License," because all the small publishers for whom I do work depend on that OGL to publish their stuff. If 4E won't have it, then all the small publishers will be forced either to keep their products in the 3.x realm or make up their own systems entirely.

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Post by Treebore »

With adjectives like you use, third eye, its no wonder so many "3E people" think we hate their game.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Dyne »

Treebore wrote:
With adjectives like you use, third eye, its no wonder so many "3E people" think we hate their game.

But, they're so entertaining.... Lizards of the Hoax is definitely the best name for WotC I've ever seen.

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Post by yell0w_lantern »

Yeah, I'm spreading the word about C&C over at the other place I frequent. So if you like superheroes pick up a copy of Freedom Force versus the Third Reich and join us over at www.freedomreborn.net.

Cheers!

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Post by Rigon »

From the Design and Development: Race section of WotC:

Set the wayback machine to May of 2004!

Even at that point, we knew 4th Edition was coming, though official work on it wouldnt start for another year. At the time, the design team used to meet regularly in what we jokingly called the Design Cabal. And one day, in May 04, we started kicking around the question of how many slices of pie a D&D character should consist of, and how big each piece should be.

In 3rd Edition, class and magic items were two big pieces of the PC pie. Race was important at 1st level, but by the time you hit 20th, there was rarely much to distinguish a dwarf fighter from a half-orc fighter. The difference between a +2 here and a +2 over there was drowned out by the huge bonuses from magic items and character levelit didnt matter any more.

We wanted race to matter all the way up through a characters career. We wanted there to be some difference between two characters of different races, all other things being equal. We had tried out mechanics like the racial paragons in Unearthed Arcana and the racial substitution levels in the Races of . . . series of books, and we liked the results.

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like the 20-level race. In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, youd get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarfs Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st leveldwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elfs inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just cant do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.
And the Design and Development: Class section:

Heres a highly probable conversation lifted from the future, one year from today, as two players whove just met at a convention discuss their PC choices for their upcoming D&D game.

Im playing a 3rd-level human fighter named Graelar.

Cool. Is he weapon and shield or two-hander?

Hes sword and board, man.

Longsword?

Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so Im using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later.

My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But youve got the fighter covered. Ill play a halfling rogue.

The names and destinations of the powers mentioned above might have changed by the time the game is in your hands. What wont change is that fighters care about which weapons they use much more than other characters. Other character classes have specific weapons and weapon types that they tend to rely on while still maintaining access to a larger chunk of the weapon chart. The fighter is the only current 4th Edition class with capabilities that depend on the weapon they have chosen to train the most with. Even at 1st level, a fighter who uses an axe has a different power selection than a fighter who relies on a flail or a rapier or a pick. In the long run, fighters can diversify and master powers related to a few different weapons, but most will opt to focus on the weapon that suits their personal style, helps their interactions with the rest of the PCs in the group, and carries all the magical oomph theyve managed to acquire.

Many fighters will opt for swords. Swords have the most flexible assortment of powers. In a fighters hands, the longsword is the queen of the battlefield and the greatsword is the queens executioner. But each of the other significant melee weapons offers the fighter unique advantages and opportunities. For the first time, youll be able to say Im an axe fighter or Im a flail fighter and that will mean something cool.

After reading both of those, I don't think I want anything to do with 4e.

R-
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Post by Treebore »

Yeah, I thought they were going to simplify things. Sounds a lot more complex.
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Post by serleran »

Naw, it just means there are weapon-specific feats, likely... like: Twirl the Donkey [Prerequisite: BAB 1+, Weapon Specialization: Lance, Str 3+] When using Twirl the Donkey, you inflict extra-uber impale damage; any charge attack, when wielding a lance, now deals x8 damage and you can "twirl the donkey" to cause any struck opponent to move 100 feet in whatever direction you want, including straight up, which might subject them to damage from falling.

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Post by 3rd Eye »

I'm a little disgusted by the use of the word "powers" to describe "things you can do with an object." It betrays a mode of thinking that is thoroughly detached from reality, and an assumption that everyone else suffers the from the same ignorance.

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Post by Dyne »

Rigon wrote:
After reading both of those, I don't think I want anything to do with 4e.

I love how the example conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the actual characters, but only about their stats. A perfect representation of what WotC produces nowadays: a bunch of hyped-up special abilities and "powers" with no actual depth, no plot, no storyline, and really no adventure. I think a better name for current D&D is "Dumb and Dumber". Maybe "Dunderheads and Doofuses," since those are the people that are actually buying into this crap.

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Post by moriarty777 »

It's Diablo II... or Titan Quest... or other similarly themed 'hack & slash' computer 'rpg' (I use the term 'rpg' loosely).

Many people considered 3.x to be 'video game-ish' -- 4th Edition looks like it's trying to seal the deal with that direct comparison.

Bottom line... I'm sure many people will enjoy it. Those that enjoyed those aspects will readily accept 4th and migrate from 3.x in time... It'll be the same as people adopting 3.5 from 3.0

So I think the impact will be very little for C&C in the grand scheme of things. The few that might drop D&D for C&C will be replaced by new and younger players coming to D&D for the first time.

Ah well... I'm happy that TLG is not too dependent on the D&D market. It does beg this question though:

With the first Cult of Yex Module out... how well does 4th bode for the rest of that series?

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Post by Treebore »

Probably 5 more years before we see the rest. Just in time to get held up again by 5th edition announcements.

Realize, with 3E and 4E as an example, they will start working on 5E in 2010 and release 5E in 2013.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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