What impact do you think 4e will have on C&C sales?

3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:42 pm

Treebore wrote:
they will start working on 5E in 2010 and release 5E in 2013.

That's when 5E will come out. 4.5E will be in early-to-mid 2009, when their horrible 4E sales figures have had a chance to sink in, and they're desperately trying to correct all the errors

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:15 pm

3rd Eye wrote:
I'm far more interested in knowing whether 4E will continue to offer the current "Open Game License," because all the small publishers for whom I do work depend on that OGL to publish their stuff. If 4E won't have it, then all the small publishers will be forced either to keep their products in the 3.x realm or make up their own systems entirely.

I found the following quote here.

"The Open Gaming License will continue as it has in the past, allowing the use of the rules in other publishers' games. "

Dangersaurus · Post by **Dangersaurus** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:16 pm

Tank wrote:
I'm one of those people that jumped ship and started playing C&C after my dissatisfaction with D&D 3.x. As of now, I'm keeping an open mind towards fourth edition. If it's good, I'll buy a PHB. It if it's really good, I'll switch back to playing D&D. Of course, my definition of "really good" is synonymous with "going back to the basics," and that has a lot of overlap with what C&C has - which means that even if I stop playing C&C, I'll still be able to buy C&C products and use them with minimal conversion.

But let's be honest with ourselves here, will 4E go back to the basics? I highly doubt it.

From their website, this is how they envision people talking about the game:

"Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so Im using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later."

"My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But youve got the fighter covered. Ill play a halfling rogue."

So at least things are going to get simpler and they won't be promoting metagaming.

Dangersaurus · Post by **Dangersaurus** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:18 pm

Should've read further - I didn't realize that bit had already been appropriately mocked.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:25 pm

Quote:
In 3rd Edition, class and magic items were two big pieces of the PC pie. Race was important at 1st level, but by the time you hit 20th, there was rarely much to distinguish a dwarf fighter from a half-orc fighter.

I don't know....I've played 3e quite a bit and I've played dwarf and half-orc fighters. I don't ever remember them morphing their looks the more levels they gained. I guess a character's looks, background, and personality don't count for significant distinctions between characters to them.
I swear, it sure seems like the players I hated playing with in the 1e/2e days have taken over the game design for 3e/4e.

SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:27 pm

Different strokes for different folks. I liked Sinistar, my friends liked Defender. I don't begrudge anyone their fun. (Well, most anyone.)

I figure that we'll be here for the folks that want to remember their character by what they did, not what was on their character sheet.

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:06 am

In a way, I get what they are trying to do. A 12 year old kid these days doesn't want to sit in their room with paper and dice, they are all wired and either on line, texting, playing some xbox type thing and listening to their ipods. I get it, bring the role playing experience to the digital generation. If this makes my favorite hobby grow then more power to them. the game doesnt grow by catering to old fogies like me. So, in that respect, i get what they are doing.

However, anyone who ever played magic should not be surprised that wotc is releasing 4.0, making it incompatible with other editions, and alienating their core market group. I am interested if their insider tools will allow cnc, the new t5, runequest, etc to play in their system. If they don't, then it would be real easy to simulate the same system for say, the cnc society.

my 2 cents

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:14 am

SavageRobby wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. I liked Sinistar, my friends liked Defender. I don't begrudge anyone their fun. (Well, most anyone.)

I figure that we'll be here for the folks that want to remember their character by what they did, not what was on their character sheet.

That is one thing 80% of everyone I played 3E with did. They were more concerned with their feat chains and how powerful it made them. All they were concerned about for what they had done was their kill count to determine had killer their feat chain was.

Gold wasn't a surprise to me. Everyone pretty much treats money as a means to an end. Can't really blame people for that, can we? Its survival in todays world.

The thing I missed most in 3E? Not positive, but I think its the feeling that you really, really earned your level of power in other iterations of D&D. In 3E its handed to you on a plattter and becomes meaningless. An expected result. That is expected every other game session. If that session is only 3 to 4 hours long. If you play 8 hour sessions they expected to level twice, or at least get close to twice.

4E is looking to be more power creep. Thats all "Book of 9 Swords" (Tome of Battle) is. Power creep. Cool ideas, etc... but SERIOUS power creep.

If I want anime Dragonball characters I like BESM (Big Eye, Small Mouth) for that kind of playing. Plus playing Gundams.

Don't put Dragonball Z in my medievel fantasy. I like them separate.

So in 4E I'll be a very minor participant.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:11 am

Hmm, 4E is certainly generating threads everywhere, but for the most part I just don't have any interest.

Having said that, this might be the most poignant thread yet.

I believe that TLG will gain customers and sales from this announcement and there will be a great movement away from the reviled lizards of the cost.

4E:

This is another upsetting/flawed/foolish/derisive/mistaken directional change for the bloody and broken pretender - d&d.
Actually, the game as produced by lizards is not and never will be D&D.

Hmm, what to call that piece of crap? That AoO/rulz ridiculous/crap art/DMs will die game???

Luckily for all of us, the real D&D lives ~ like Frodo!!
OD&D, BD&D, AD&D, C&C, AD&D 2E ~ will be with us always!

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Gleemax Jr · Post by **Gleemax Jr** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:27 am

I know I will be buying everything not released by Wizards of the Coast.

There is also a likely probability of an OGL being used seeing as there is a certain brainpower required to create new things, and I have all of that.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:23 am

Having thought about it, I think no effect on C&C or any real rpg. Because WOTC has modified the game into a different genre. I am going to give the Trolls, and Chaosium, and newer companies producing actual p&p rpgs all the business I can and just ignore WOTC from now on. I now think whatever they do won't damage MY hobby any more...it's no longer the same animal. So all I have to say to anyone who wants to play 'D&D' is, 'sorry, I do rpgs'.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:51 am

"I now think whatever they do won't damage MY hobby any more...it's no longer the same animal. So all I have to say to anyone who wants to play 'D&D' is, 'sorry, I do rpgs'."

-andakitty

I am seriously thinking of using that in my sigs on a couple of boards I go to.
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3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:28 am

I liked the Dragonball Z reference. That's right on the nose.

It's as if they think the target audience are all anime-fans, who naturally want characters who perform "nearly magical" displays of "powers" with perfectly ordinary objects like swords, and who no doubt announce their moves aloud in combat, too
4ker: I leap forward and hover in mid-air, with my hair on fire and lightning shooting out of my ass, and I howl in this really cool, booming, echoing voice, "RAAAIN OF BLOOOOOOWS! Blows! Blows!" and then I attack!
4ager: Whoa, dude!
DM: Coolness factor 18 bypasses AC dude, automatic hit! Awesome! Roll the dice for destruction points, dude!
4ker: I do [clatter] 139 points of piercing damage to everything in range, plus [clatter] 864 points of seismic damage!
4ager: Awesome, dude!
DM: That rawx! The orc army blows apart in a massive expolosion of bodies and chunks of bloody meat, flying out in slow motion in all directions and leaving trails of smoke and blood through the air!
4ker & 4ager [in unison]: AWESOME!
DM: And in the center of the screen, there's a molten, burning crater 120 feet wide erupting like a volcano, shooting up a mushroom cloud of fire and smoke that rolls out across the sky, blotting out the sun!
4ker: Whoa, AWESOME, dude!
All [in unison]: 4-E Double-D RAAAWWWX! Woooooo!
4ker: And then I pose really cool with my fists apart, panting real heavy and glaring up at the sky and
4ager: Dude, with smoke curling off your sword blade!
4ker: Yeah! With smoke curling off my sword blade! And it's glowing red hot dude, and I roar at the sky with this really cool snarl on my face while thunder cracks in the background, "I'm attacking the DAAARKNESS! Darkness! Darkness!"

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:44 am

3rd Eye, I think your post should be archived for posterity. It rings so true and so funny at the same time. Now, reading again about the Dragon Ball Z reference, I guess that it may be **really** what came out of some marketing survey, that to gain a maximum of money this is what they would have to publish. After all, we all have memories of teen years when we played uber munchkin only to slay gods and the like, with no concern for any kind of developped campaign or story. WotC must be aiming at such 12 years old customer base. Indeed, they are not targeting older roleplayers, but young TV spectators who grew fed on Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon...

Fortunately we have C&C well and living.
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:18 pm

I will say that the ENWorld threads are very amusing, the widespread panic is unbelievable. And there is someone who just started posting there named F4NBOY who is like the Herald of the New Age of Glory in which 4E can do no wrong. Mildly amusing are the postings of a sycophant who acts like a WotC plant there to stir up 4E excitement (and it wouldn't surprise me).

Underlying all of the arguments on ENWorld I see a lot of people who will be buying into 4E for nostalgia, which is like only buying a Ford because they were the first assembly line automobiles.

I enjoy Warhammer and C&C and driving my Mitsubishi. I played 1E and loved it, but times change and newer versions of something don't always mean that they are still even the same thing that they were before.

Jupp · Post by **Jupp** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:46 pm

I will certainly buy the PHB and at least the DMG (not sure about the MM yet). Since we have two gaming groups that might be a good opportunity to try 4e while the other continues with C&C.

I like trying out new things and 4e seems to be enough of a change to try it out. Also I am not the type that bashes something just because its from WotC. If the product is good enough I will certainly continue to use it. Even if its only to draw inspiration for C&C.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:18 pm

For all it's downfalls WOTC and 3e has made some innovations in the game. Hell, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the OGL so we owe them a little for that.

I'm getting tired of the kneejerk bashing I am seeing that amounts to "4e suxxors". I've even dropped out of a couple threads on other boards I visit due to the outright venom on only something that has been announced for 2 days now. I'm sorry but we don't know enough about it to bash it or go fanboy.
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Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:33 pm

Heh - I'm at an Internet shop right now, waiting for a bento box to be served up at the Japanese place a couple doors down, but I just could not go without having a look at the latest goings-on. 3rd Eye, that little scene is getting put down as a blow-for-blow (literally) example of exactly what not to do if you want role-playing as a part of your hobby-life. And I agree with Treebore as well - D&D 3.x was a power-gaming experience masquerading as an RPG; with 4.0, they've given up all pretense and have turned it into a video game. All best to them...and meanwhile, I'll be calling up Little Rock and having those C&C books and modules sent down just as fast as they can manage. All best. Dudes.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:56 pm

Bash WOTC, 3e, or 4e?
Heaven forbid!
What are they, anyway?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:59 pm

andakitty wrote:
Bash WOTC, 3e, or 4e?
Heaven forbid!
What are they, anyway?

They/it is treated by many, too many, as a religion.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:16 pm

It is best to hail Gleemax before it is too late. Do you not hear the brainfarting already?

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:25 pm

How very true. Nobody needs to scold me for bashing it, though, because it simply doesn't exist for me any more. Stuff I like is beginning to come out again, so I can have my hobby back. I have C&C, EPIC, the new BRP rulebook, Ramlar, many good freebies like BFRPG, GORE, Ilshara, etc. And I noticed that this last Dragonflight even had a few things going on other than D&D, albeit there was not much interest in them...yet. I have hope for my hobby again for the first time in years. However well or not 4e does just...does...not...matter...to...me. Like evangelical religious types, all the 3e, 4e, and WOTC fans have to do is stay out of my face, and I will be perfectly happy to not criticize their choices of game or whatever. Anyone who has read some of the posts over at ENWORLD or rpg.net knows what happens if you say something good about C&C, for instance. I have no apologies about anything harsh I have said about WOTC, 3e, 4e, Adkinson, Dancy, or any of the rest of it, though. Truth to tell, they deserve bashing. I just don't care enough to bother any more.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:00 pm

I'm not about bashing the people that play 3.X. If they like it, I don't have any issues at all. How could I?

My bashing is more to do with lizards and their dominance of the industry by virtue of having the D&D trade marks and such. And tricky/sneaky marketing.

Take the basic d&d boxed set from 3 years ago. I bought it and ran it. It was excellent, but NOT the actual 3.5 game.

The box has nice dungeon tiles, color directions and char sheets and was a very simplified version of the game (with occasional references to the full PH).

So, back then, I was aghast when first looking at the 3.5 PH.

And interestly, the newest basic game has minis and the player's kit game has the PH, and I don't know if that's good or bad ~ or it doesn't matter.

lizards of the cost, dominate the LGS shelves and there's hardly any room for C&C.

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3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:07 pm

I have a natural tendency to root for underdogs, and to root against whoever's on top so there's just no way I can bring myself to sympathize with what is, in the end, really just Hasbro we're talking about.

Hasbro is to games what Microsoft is to PC software except worse.

What they did to Avalon Hill alone is enough reason to despise them.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:15 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
... dominate the LGS shelves and there's hardly any room for C&C.

I was at my somewhat local gamestore (Metagames) last night and bought two C&C modules. However the main domination of the store in the RP department was D20. Not Wizards D&D but D20 based products. The C&C modules were hard to find though. And I have been trying to get a demo in there for awhile but no interest has been sparked yet.

I think that the one tactic TLG needs is honest to God Reps that do demoing like there were in the older days. Added in with an advertising push I think that will drum up interest more.

Now I know they don't have the reasources to do that so it falls to us and more importantly C&C society members and officers to do this. Backed by a nice demo kit and info packet for customers I think we could gain some ground when there are people looking for something new.
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:31 pm

I think I am going to try that. Demo pack or not. But, what is a demo pack, exactly? At any rate, if the Trolls set something like that up, I want to be first in line. I live in Redmond, WA, less than 10 miles from WOTC Central, by the way. STEALTH ATTACK!

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:18 am

andakitty wrote:
But, what is a demo pack, exactly?

In my idea it would be an introductory adventure, quickstart rules for handout and a FAQ list for the game. The list would cover why the game was made, products and a list of C&C websites for more info. And maybe an order form for the store hosting the demo to get a percentage off it's first or next C&C order whatever the case may be.
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Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:55 am

I read this on ENworld (where I was trying to "troll" a bit ):

Quote:
... what will happen to the d20STL is far from clear. To me, anyways. If I'm reading the entrails correctly, Wizards will withdraw the d20 system trademark license...

Hey, I just hope it's not going to affect C&C, which was released using the OGL?
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SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:07 am

Turanil wrote:
Hey, I just hope it's not going to affect C&C, which was released using the OGL?

It won't. C&C was released under the OGL, which due to the way its written, can't be revoked. So as far as that goes, C&C will be fine.

If I understand correctly, the d20 logo and license are paid for licenses (or at least WotC approved ones), and that is a different beast. I don't doubt they'll want to revamp that somewhat, since it stopped standing for quality a fair while back.

Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:24 pm

I watched the entire 4E explanation at Gen Con last week and wasn't impressed. They've addressed some of the 3.5 problems, but it looks like they are creating others. I don't want to deal with online cr@p in order to more effectively run my game. I want a book, paper and dice...that's it. I brought my PHB, some premade characters and we did a pick up game of C&C Thursday night and everyone had a blast.

I think C&C will be just fine, especially once the Trolls get the Basic set out-WOTC still won't have anything that equals it for ease of use for kids just getting into RPGs and I plan on running an intro to RPG gaming for kids at my FLGS as soon as the box set come out.