What impact do you think 4e will have on C&C sales?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:45 pm

Fat Dragon Games wrote:
I watched the entire 4E explanation at Gen Con last week and wasn't impressed. They're address some of the 3.5 problems, but it looks like they are creating others. I don't want to deal with online cr@p in order to more effectively run my game. I want a book, paper and dice...that's it. I brought my PHB, some premade characters and we did a pick up game of C&C Thursday night and everyone had a blast.

I think C&C will be just fine, especially once the Trolls get the Basic set out-WOTC still won't have anything that equals it for ease of use for kids just getting into RPGs and I plan on running an intro to RPG gaming for kids at my FLGS as soon as the box set come out.

Congrats on your Silver!
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Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:51 am

Thanks! All of us at FDG were humbled and honored to be up on that stage with the likes of Monte Cook, the Green Ronin guys and everyone else. I certainly hope Steve and Davis are up there next year...

Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:59 am

Congrats!
You products are very handy
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cleaverthepit · Post by **cleaverthepit** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:22 am

Yeah congrats man! Thats cool.

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:41 pm

WoTC wrote:
4th Edition dragons are among the most dynamic, exciting monsters in the gameas they should be. Theyre different from each other, across categories (the metallics arent like the chromatics), across colors (reds and whites dont have all the same attacks), and across age categories (fear the ancient dragons). Heres just a taste of what a fight against an ancient dragon might feel like:

* On the dragons turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feeta free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though theyre both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. Its getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragons turn.

* Its the fighters turn. He charges the dragon and manages to land a solid blow, dropping the dragon down below half its hit points. Ohthat gives the dragon the opportunity use its breath weapon as an immediate action. A huge cone of fire bursts from the dragons mouth, engulfing all four PCs. But at least the dragon is below 500 hit points!

* Now the rogue moves around to flank with the fighter. Ordinarily, that would let the dragon use its tail slap again as an immediate action, but the dragon has used its immediate action already. Thats lucky for the rogue, who actually gets to make an attack this round! Unfortunately, she fails to hit the dragons AC of 49.

* The wizard fails to put out the fire, so he takes more damage. Worse yet, the dragons breath scoured away the wizards fire resistance, so he takes the full amount. He blasts the dragon with a ray of freezing cold, but this isnt 3rd Edition. The dragon takes normal damage, but its not enough to slow it down.

* Finally, the cleric is up. Calling on the power of her god, she swings her halberd at the dragona critical hit! The damage isnt bad, but even better, the wizard gets a nice surge of healing power.

Hes going to need itits the dragons turn again.

Yeah.... I changed my mind. I won't be buying even a PHB. Immediate actions, dozens of free actions, fighters doing 500 hp of damage, AC's of 49? Sounds like they didn't change that much after all.

I think the dragon's turn alone took 20 minutes.

EDIT: Here's an authentic picture of this combat taking place via the WoTC Digital Initiative:

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:46 pm

Wow, that sounds like a lot of stuff to keep up with. I know I wouldn't want to be the GM trying to remember all that stuff, but there are those who thrive on this kind of crunchiness. For them, this is probably a slice of heaven from a much-awaited system. I hope they enjoy it. I strongly suspect I would not.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:47 pm

Oh. My. Freaking. God. Deep down inside I knew 4E wasn't going to be for me, but that WotC quote clarified the bleep out of the situation for me. I want no part of that sizzling pile of Kender poo. How can the Trolls not sell more copies of C&C after 4E arrives?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:39 pm

Wow! So their improving the game by making the players more powerful and giving a ton of thngs to keep track of, and whimpifying the monsters, including the Ancient Red Dragon.

WOTC better be grateful that Dragons aren't real. Their buildings would be mysteriously bursting into flames if Dragons were real.
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:21 pm

Well, maybe they are self-destructing at that. This is neither fish nor fowl, not a tabletop rpg exactly, not a computer game exactly, not a miniatures game exactly, not a board game or card game or any other sort of game exactly. It apparently is an attempt to do all of the above simultaneously, and I am thinking it might just sink under its own weight. I really hope I am smelling WOTC/HASBRO blood here (I can't help, I despise smug arrogance). I guess we have to wait a year to find out, though.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:54 am

Well that dragon example just knocked alot of interest into the trash.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:03 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
Well that dragon example just knocked alot of interest into the trash.

Yeah, and I didn't have much interest to begin with.

The biggest reason I even want to support 4E at all is to support PAizo, Necromancer, and Goodman.

Making me blow chunks like this is making it hard to do.

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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:28 am

Tank wrote:
Yeah.... I changed my mind. I won't be buying even a PHB. Immediate actions, dozens of free actions, fighters doing 500 hp of damage, AC's of 49? Sounds like they didn't change that much after all.

I think the dragon's turn alone took 20 minutes.

*Pukes at the example!* Glad to see that nothing's f**king changed on the Elemental Plane of Nerf.
*Takes a healthy swig of Captain Morgan...to get the taste of vomit out of my mouth...yeah that's right.*
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:38 am

Breakdaddy wrote:
Wow, that sounds like a lot of stuff to keep up with. I know I wouldn't want to be the GM trying to remember all that stuff, but there are those who thrive on this kind of crunchiness. For them, this is probably a slice of heaven from a much-awaited system. I hope they enjoy it. I strongly suspect I would not.

It's not so bad if you take into account the Digital Initiative thingy at $10 a month or whatever they are bilking out of their consumers. Gods know that that is the only way you'd be able to keep track of all that shatner.

R-
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:41 am

Traveller wrote:
*Pukes at the example!* Glad to see that nothing's f**king changed on the Elemental Plane of Nerf.
*Takes a healthy swig of Captain Morgan...to get the taste of vomit out of my mouth...yeah that's right.*

Uhh, yeah, I'll take a swig my friend. A lot of stomach and mind upsetting stuff being posted. 'Course, I could stop reading it, no?
Who's ready for some Blueberry Yum Yum?
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3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:58 am

What did I say? I repeat:

3rd Eye wrote:
I liked the Dragonball Z reference. That's right on the nose.

It's as if they think the target audience are all anime-fans, who naturally want characters who perform "nearly magical" displays of "powers" with perfectly ordinary objects like swords, and who no doubt announce their moves aloud in combat, too
4ker: I leap forward and hover in mid-air, with my hair on fire and lightning shooting out of my ass, and I howl in this really cool, booming, echoing voice, "RAAAIN OF BLOOOOOOWS! Blows! Blows!" and then I attack!
4ager: Whoa, dude!
DM: Coolness factor 18 bypasses AC dude, automatic hit! Awesome! Roll the dice for destruction points, dude!
4ker: I do [clatter] 139 points of piercing damage to everything in range, plus [clatter] 864 points of seismic damage!
4ager: Awesome, dude!
DM: That rawx! The orc army blows apart in a massive expolosion of bodies and chunks of bloody meat, flying out in slow motion in all directions and leaving trails of smoke and blood through the air!
4ker & 4ager [in unison]: AWESOME!
DM: And in the center of the screen, there's a molten, burning crater 120 feet wide erupting like a volcano, shooting up a mushroom cloud of fire and smoke that rolls out across the sky, blotting out the sun!
4ker: Whoa, AWESOME, dude!
All [in unison]: 4-E Double-D RAAAWWWX! Woooooo!
4ker: And then I pose really cool with my fists apart, panting real heavy and glaring up at the sky and
4ager: Dude, with smoke curling off your sword blade!
4ker: Yeah! With smoke curling off my sword blade! And it's glowing red hot dude, and I roar at the sky with this really cool snarl on my face while thunder cracks in the background, "I'm attacking the DAAARKNESS! Darkness! Darkness!"

It's like I'm psychic or something

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:36 am

3rd Eye wrote:
What did I say? I repeat:

It's like I'm psychic or something

Naw! You just weren't holding out hope that they might actually improving anything.
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thedungeondelver · Post by **thedungeondelver** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:36 am

Quote:
4th Edition dragons are among the most dynamic, exciting monsters in the gameas they should be. Theyre different from each other, across categories (the metallics arent like the chromatics), across colors (reds and whites dont have all the same attacks), and across age categories (fear the ancient dragons). Heres just a taste of what a fight against an ancient dragon might feel like:

* On the dragons turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feeta free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though theyre both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. Its getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragons turn.

* Its the fighters turn. He charges the dragon and manages to land a solid blow, dropping the dragon down below half its hit points. Ohthat gives the dragon the opportunity use its breath weapon as an immediate action. A huge cone of fire bursts from the dragons mouth, engulfing all four PCs. But at least the dragon is below 500 hit points!

* Now the rogue moves around to flank with the fighter. Ordinarily, that would let the dragon use its tail slap again as an immediate action, but the dragon has used its immediate action already. Thats lucky for the rogue, who actually gets to make an attack this round! Unfortunately, she fails to hit the dragons AC of 49.

* The wizard fails to put out the fire, so he takes more damage. Worse yet, the dragons breath scoured away the wizards fire resistance, so he takes the full amount. He blasts the dragon with a ray of freezing cold, but this isnt 3rd Edition. The dragon takes normal damage, but its not enough to slow it down.

* Finally, the cleric is up. Calling on the power of her god, she swings her halberd at the dragona critical hit! The damage isnt bad, but even better, the wizard gets a nice surge of healing power.

Hes going to need itits the dragons turn again.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:47 am

*chuckles* Honestly folks, if you don't like the direction the D&D game is going, don't buy into it. There's no need to go on about it for 5 pages.
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3rd Eye · Post by **3rd Eye** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:51 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's no need to go on about it for 5 pages.

"Need? We ain't got no need. We don't need no need. I don't have to show you any stinking need!"

Now an easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: What word is "need" replacing?

And another easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: In what film was that line spoken?

Now somewhat more difficult, for 10 Bonus Karma Points: What was the context in which that line was spoken?

And finally, for 20 Bonus Karma Points: Can you name either the character OR the actor who spoke that line?
EXTRA CREDIT:
5 Points: Who was the film's main star?
10 Points: What year was the film made?

Ready?

Now subtract 15 points for each answer that you had to look up on IMDB.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:37 am

Reading about the dragon and dragon-ball-Z stuff, I am now inclined to think that 4e will in fact boost C&C sales...
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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:32 am

Quote:
"Need? We ain't got no need. We don't need no need. I don't have to show you any stinking need!"

Cool

Now an easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: What word is "need" replacing?

And another easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: In what film was that line spoken?

Now somewhat more difficult, for 10 Bonus Karma Points: What was the context in which that line was spoken?

And finally, for 20 Bonus Karma Points: Can you name either the character OR the actor who spoke that line?

EXTRA CREDIT:

5 Points: Who was the film's main star?

10 Points: What year was the film made?

Ready?

Now subtract 15 points for each answer that you had to look up on IMDB.

hmm... a lotta questions, but the basics are pretty clear

a. 'need' replaces 'badges' "we don't need no stinkin' badges"

b. film=Blazing Saddles

c. The bad guy is interviewing goons for his posse to attack the town, IIRC

d. I can't remember the actor who said the line, although I'm tempted to say Cheech Marin. But that's not right. As for the character, I can't remember that either ... but it wasn't Mongo!

e.c.

1. main star was Gene Wilder

2. year? hmm... 1974? 1972? somewhere in there.

Fun!

Geleg

thedungeondelver · Post by **thedungeondelver** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:41 pm

3rd Eye wrote:
"Need? We ain't got no need. We don't need no need. I don't have to show you any stinking need!"

Now an easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: What word is "need" replacing?

And another easy one, for 5 Bonus Karma Points: In what film was that line spoken?

Now somewhat more difficult, for 10 Bonus Karma Points: What was the context in which that line was spoken?

And finally, for 20 Bonus Karma Points: Can you name either the character OR the actor who spoke that line?
EXTRA CREDIT:
5 Points: Who was the film's main star?
10 Points: What year was the film made?

Ready?

Now subtract 15 points for each answer that you had to look up on IMDB.

-Badges

-The movie is "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"

-The context is Gold Hat tells Bogart's character that they're the local police and Bogart calls 'em on it.

-Gold Hat

-Bogart

-'48

(Got the DVD.)

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:54 pm

whoa! My face is red! Shoulda realized that Blazing Saddles was ripping off something at that point ...

ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:26 pm

It's not like that silly style of play wasn't possible in C&C - in fact, I always tell my players things like "You rolled max damage and killed the monster in one hit... um... your sword chops its body right in half and blood gushes all over."

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:48 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Honestly folks, if you don't like the direction the D&D game is going, don't buy into it. There's no need to go on about it for 5 pages.

Indeed there is. Suppose someone gives you a puppy. You love that puppy. You grow up with it, teach it to fetch and roll over. Then one day someone takes your puppy out back and shoots it. Then they hand you a cat. It's better than the puppy, they tell you. You are allergic to it. The cat shits in the floor, scratches your furniture, stinks up the place and scratches you every time you try to pet it. But it's newer, prettier, and comes with a bunch of accesories and has a spikey collar. Then to top it off, they name the cat Fido. It won't fetch, it won't roll over, except to crap in the floor again. Then in 3 years, you have Fido 3.5.....
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kaomera · Post by **kaomera** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:48 pm

JRR wrote:
Indeed there is. >snip 2e...).

I'd rather look at 4e as another option. I think it's great that they aren't trying to be old-school D&D as much anymore; I have 1e AD&D or C&C for that. 4e is going to be different. Different isn't bad, and no-one's going to force you to switch...

Now I am running a 3.5 game at the moment. And I'm running it basically because the players involved don't want to to do old-school D&D. They want feats and skill ranks and a bunch of other complications. But I can enjoy 3.5 too, it's not a bad game, just not my first choice. It does help that I'm DMing, as I can add some of the more "old-school" stuff that (the few bits I think D&D actually needs) back in.

The group had suggested in the past that they'd be willing to give Hackmaster a go, but I'm not a HM fan so we aren't doing that. I'm not going to run a game I'm not interested in or excited about. Likewise as a player I'm pretty picky about who I'd play 3.5 with.

The only real problem I can find with 3.5 / 4e is that it is / will be what the majority of players want to play. If I could find 4 or more players who wanted to play old-school D&D then I probably wouldn't be playing 3.5. I wouldn't actually just drop the 3.5 game I'm running, as I like the players and do enjoy the game, but I think I'd be happier running C&C or something similar...
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:05 pm

JRR wrote:
Indeed there is. >snip<

Its a game, there is no need to take it that seriously...^_~`
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SoulCatcher78 · Post by **SoulCatcher78** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:40 pm

I think it will increase sales of C&C honestly.

Between now and their release of the Phb/DMG/MM there's going to be a big hole in the "new stuff to buy that's going to support my game" cycle which includes Xmas for gamers who would like to get others to buy things for us. C&C can fill that need with either a new platform for play (for some) or the adventure material that's already produced and stuff that's in the works (yes, bringing up CZ, I can't help it, it's a sickness or something).

Publishers who were counting on 3.5 will have to go back to the drawing board for next years projects but we (C&Cers) get to move along at full speed (since the OGL isn't dependant on any future releases from WotC).

Announcing their launch before 4th Quarter is going to hurt WotC this year as Xmas sales will likely be in the toilet for their flagship product. Glad I'm not the guy who gets to explain to the Hasbro board why that is going to happen.

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:49 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its a game, there is no need to take it that seriously...^_~`

Heh, I'm not taking it seriously. WOTC ceased to meatter for me a long, long time ago. But I still hate cats.
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RakintheBlue · Post by **RakintheBlue** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:24 pm

On that dragon post:

I couldn't tell if I was reading D&D or WoW....