A post I made about 4E over on ENWorld I thought some of you

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:04 pm

would identify/agree with.

"As for publishers, it will be smartest for them to switch over to 4E. At least in a "primary" sense.

Goodman Games has apparently learned that printing for OOP rules sets can be worthwhile (look at their 1E modules), so I bet they, and a few others, may give some continued support to 3E.

I feel sorry for those of you with those 3E books that are not compatible with 4E. At least with me, and my Castles and Crusades rules set, I'll be in a position to use anything I like from any edition. So, just like I do with 3E, anything I like in 4E I'll be able to use in my game.

So another benefit I have discovered with using C&C as my rules base, even with the advent of 4E all my books still stay relevant to my gaming. Including books that catch my eye from the new edition.

So I am glad I have found C&C, or I would be quitting a hobby I have loved for 22+ years due to yet another edition making $1,000's worth of books practically useless."
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:26 pm

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you in many ways.

I don't care that 4e is coming. Heck, the completest in me will probably have me buy the core three books. Not that I see myself playing the edition.

However, beyond the core three, I doubt WotC will get any more of my money. Even if I could use the product with C&C. I'm not a fan of throwing money WotC's way, haven't been for many years.

But, just like with 3e, I'll likely pick up interesting 3rd party publications I think I might get some use from.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:03 pm

Here is another thread, with poll, I started over on ENWorld about a company stepping up and filling the 3E void left by WOTC.

Which is doable because fo the OGL and SRD.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204501
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:10 pm

I bought the first three 3e books and ran a short campaign. The group I was in at the time was a very hard sell. We were running BRP, Earthdawn, Deadlands, and Alternity on a more or less random basis. It became too cumbersome for me around 5th level, preparing sessions came to feel like homework and a couple of the players pretty much started not showing up on D&D nights. These guys had been coming to my games for over ten years, so I don't think it was my GMing. When WOTC did the 3.5 thing I picked up the PHB, had a good look at it, and then sold all four books off to Noble Knight. My errant players came back. And I never bought another WOTC book in the what, seven years?, since. Now I am doubly happy about that.

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:25 pm

I already quit D&D, so I couldn't give a single rat dropping what they do about new editions.

Long live the Crusade.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:32 pm

Dyne wrote:
I already quit D&D, so I couldn't give a single rat dropping what they do about new editions.

Long live the Crusade.

I quit d20 and started playing D&D again. Castles & Crusades.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:58 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I quit d20 and started playing D&D again. Castles & Crusades.

Quit strange isn't it? Has a different name, but it sure plays like the "old" game!
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Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:04 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I quit d20 and started playing D&D again. Castles & Crusades.

Perhaps that's a better way of putting it.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:45 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
But, just like with 3e, I'll likely pick up interesting 3rd party publications I think I might get some use from.

You, Treebore and I think Inkpot have all shwon how to work anything into your games well. Definately showing the versitility of this system.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:01 am

Yeah, even so. I still talk much smack about d20.
But, I'll have to admit, there are some bits worth yanking for my own games.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:07 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, even so. I still talk much smack about d20.
But, I'll have to admit, there are some bits worth yanking for my own games.

Yeah, another thing I find funny is when I want to "power up" my monsters. I go from 1E to 2E to 3E for the most powerful versions.

Plus I have definitely used a few rules and rule concepts from 3E. (Feats, skills, ARMOR STACKING, etc...)
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:22 am

I'd be interested to see how you do your feats. I have yanked the ability score bonuses from 3e and may yank the unified XP table. Mainly due to little playing time.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:29 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I'd be interested to see how you do your feats. I have yanked the ability score bonuses from 3e and may yank the unified XP table. Mainly due to little playing time.

I use them pretty much as written, meaning in what they do, but they are earned in my games. Meaning they have to make 20, 25, 30 (you choose) SUCCESSFUL SIEGE checks, then their character has "mastered" that particular maneuver (Power Attack. Cleave, Great Cleave, even extra attack, Maximize spell, etc...) and I award them the ability. Its now a "class ability" for their character.

Maybe I should call it "Character ability".
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:15 am

For me, it's C&C, AD&D and Mentzer Classic. What can anyone want more than this?

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:44 pm

after hearing the news of 4th edition, even though I warned everyone when sw saga came out this is preview of 4th edition, I have my group on th everge of starting a Adnd, cnc campaign. Thanks WOTC, you brought my game group back.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:36 pm

mordrene wrote:
After hearing the news of 4th edition, even though I warned everyone when SW saga came out this is preview of 4th edition, I have my group on the verge of starting an ADnD, CnC campaign. Thanks WOTC, you brought my game group back.

This is so sweet to hear!
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Gleemax Jr · Post by **Gleemax Jr** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:39 pm

Did you tell these infidels about Father?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:02 pm

I will admit this announcement has spurred me...

...To push C&C further and work toward getting more people into the game.

Soon WOTC, your castoffs will be ours...
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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:23 am

You know, I'm not really worried about 4e. I liked a lot of what I saw in Star Wars Saga Edition, and I think it'll be good for D&D. Simpler, if anything. It should be fairly adaptable to C&C.

I'm going to wait and see what it's like. If I like it, I'll use it. If not, I'll mine it for ideas.
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Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:12 am

Since Star Wars Saga Edition has been brought up multiple times, I'm going to make a comprehensive post of my opinion of Saga Ed. The thing about Saga Edition, in some ways the game is dumber without being simpler.

I can see how the skills system can be simpler for some people (such as my dad), but it has certain anomalies in that things are too easy to do at 1st-level (when you can have a +10 bonus in a skill) and too difficult at higher levels (where your average trained skill at 20th-level will be only +15, or +20 if you took Skill Focus). The premise is interesting, but the execution is lacking. In my games, I changed it so that a trained skill gives you a bonus equal to your level, with untrained being half your level.

The introduction of talents is one of the oddest decisions I've seen. Basically, they are feats that can only be taken by a particular class; so the game is even MORE complex because characters have even more options. The classes have been generalized to the point that they don't really represent anything; a Scoundrel is so basic that it could be used for any type of character at all, law-abiding or not. Moreover, most of the talents they created are distinctly "video-gamey"; there's a talent that allows you to convince a wounded person to surrender if you make a successful Persuasion check (as though the average person doesn't know how to do this), one for laying down suppressive fire, one for taunting/distracting enemies, and the like. So what it boils down to: classes are meaningless to the point that the game shouldn't even have classes, and so many of the talents are so lame and useless that they should just be eliminated. Just having generic levels and feats would've made the game better and simpler, IMHO.

The Force system is basically the same as the maneuvers system from Tome of Battle. Be prepared to hear "Aw man, I ran out of Force Lightnings. Time to use Force Choke instead." Except it's not really Vancian, since your powers recharge after every encounter. I can't even call this video-gamey, because even video games have a better system than this. It reminds me of some really poorly-designed board game. Hell, even the miniatures games have better rule systems than Saga; Force powers are powered with Force points, like a Star Wars version of Mana Points. Even the Starship Miniatures game kept the vehicle-style movement rules, instead of saying "Vehicles have no facing and move exactly like characters" like what Saga did.

I bought SW Saga thinking that, if the game was horrible, at least I might be able to get a few ideas from it. But really, the game is SO horrible that I can't find a single thing to use straight from the book into my games. The book inspired a few rules changes (basically my own versions of simpler skill and level systems), but I ended up pretty much creating my own game. Now, if D&D 4e is anything like Saga, I can expect to find a system that is so broken that once I finally finish fixing it, I will have reinvented Castles & Crusades.

cleaverthepit · Post by **cleaverthepit** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:18 pm

I have no idea how 4th will be recieved. I do know that its release is geared towards bringing back to the table those who have left since about a year after the release of 3.0 (well, "know" as well as I can know). It is not geared towards bringing in new players or even working with the online community of gamers (tangentials aside).

The belief is that rules bloat is at least part of the problem. This is being addressed by simplifying the rules to a certain extent (though I get the impression their idea of simplify and mine are two wholly unrelated concepts) and making the rules more easily managed and accessed through the use of computers (the latter should be telling).

What I do know is that I made 4 sales this weekend to groups who decided to leave DnD 3-4x. They were simply tired of it and the constant expansions etc. (I sould note, some people eat this up like a hobbit eats potatoes.)

One group bought the entire line on the spot. Which, all things considered, is not that expensive. I think its @200.00. He commmented that he averaged 100.00 a month on WoTC material. (I did not even know they produced that much stuff).

Another group purchased the entire line over the course of the weekend.

Others bits and pieces.

Those were people who expressly commented on leaving DnD because of the announcement.

The con was our highest sale of CCPHBs yet.

This means, we may or may not see an expansion over the year
cuz

I can't say, not knowin' an all.

Davis

0 hence

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:33 pm

Davis, get back to your cage, finish writing the CKG, send it to me, and then, we can really get the Crusade flowin'. Damnit. *whip crack*

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:02 pm

serleran wrote:
Davis, get back to your cage, finish writing the CKG, send it to me, and then, we can really get the Crusade flowin'. Damnit. *whip crack*

*chuckles*

Thanks for your perspective Davis... a lot of us not fortunate enough to make the trip out to Gen Con have been very curious about this considering WotC's latest bomb.

I'm really happy that TLG has done well this past weekend and that our ranks looks to be growing still.

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Celestian · Post by **Celestian** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:12 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, even so. I still talk much smack about d20.
But, I'll have to admit, there are some bits worth yanking for my own games.

My group and I still play AD&D 1e (we've played 2e and 3e just never stuck) but we steal ideas from the systems we like. I've taken the ascending AC and base attack bonus from 3e (I'm horrible with numbers in my head, rolling d20 and saying I hit ac 25 is pretty darn simple !) and we've also taken the clerical healing spells from hackmaster (they do 1d4, 1d6, 1d8 per level of caster)... along that same vein we've also taken spell conversion (from 3e) of non-heals to heals so the clerics can take non-heal spells but convert to heals if needed.

I doubt we'll play 4e (we really didn't like how they do the class/dual/multi and all the feats in 3e) but perhaps we can steal from it if it makes the game smoother.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:17 pm

Yeah, there might be something cool in the 4e MM. That's the book that interests me the most, to be honest. I could care less about the PHB, and even less about the DMG (ever since the 2e book, these things have been absolutely useless), but I am curious about the monsters... since they, for me, define the way the game is supposed to work: if the monsters are push-overs, the game is a comedy (well, to me), but if they are badasses... then, well, let's just say I might like that a tad more.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:22 pm

serleran wrote:
...if the monsters are push-overs, the game is a comedy (well, to me)....

Which has been mentioned that the monsters won;t be so uber powered because it's more fun to fight lots of dudes...

Blah.

.........................................Omote

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Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:26 pm

Celestian wrote:
we've also taken the clerical healing spells from hackmaster (they do 1d4, 1d6, 1d8 per level of caster)

Ooh, that's an interesting idea, I'll have to try that sometime. Thanks for the tip!

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am

All in all WOTC can do what they want. I consider myself in a whole different crowd now. The best to them and the better to the Trolls!
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:48 am

cleaverthepit wrote:
I have no idea how 4th will be recieved. I do know that its release is geared towards bringing back to the table those who have left since about a year after the release of 3.0 (well, "know" as well as I can know). It is not geared towards bringing in new players or even working with the online community of gamers (tangentials aside).

The belief is that rules bloat is at least part of the problem. This is being addressed by simplifying the rules to a certain extent (though I get the impression their idea of simplify and mine are two wholly unrelated concepts) and making the rules more easily managed and accessed through the use of computers (the latter should be telling).

What I do know is that I made 4 sales this weekend to groups who decided to leave DnD 3-4x. They were simply tired of it and the constant expansions etc. (I sould note, some people eat this up like a hobbit eats potatoes.)

One group bought the entire line on the spot. Which, all things considered, is not that expensive. I think its @200.00. He commmented that he averaged 100.00 a month on WoTC material. (I did not even know they produced that much stuff).

Another group purchased the entire line over the course of the weekend.

Others bits and pieces.

Those were people who expressly commented on leaving DnD because of the announcement.

The con was our highest sale of CCPHBs yet.

This means, we may or may not see an expansion over the year
cuz

I can't say, not knowin' an all.

Davis

0 hence

Amazing. And in some ways astounding about the spending. I have read some things about what those people spend, but just can't really fathom that kind of cash.

Btw, big congrats on selling a goodly amount of PHs. Well done!!!

I see only GREAT things in store for TLG, C&C and us gamers ~ with the recent news. Hoping for a . . . juggernaut !!
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:21 pm

cleaverthepit wrote:
(I sould note, some people eat this up like a hobbit eats potatoes.)

Thanks for sharing your perspective, Davis. The line above made me laugh out loud. Since C&C allowed the DM to adjudicate again without being restricted to being a videogame-ish input/output box, I have loved gaming like I did when I was playing 1e AD&D/Top Secret SE/Gamma World/Star Frontiers.

Thanks for having the vision and guts to make the C&C game.
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